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Last Son Of Krypton
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 12/14/2001 4:42 PM (GMT -6) |   | Dear Dr. Boyd, I've enjoyed your books very much. I was wondering what you think of Third Wave theology as promoted by John Wimber, C. Peter Wagner, Charles Kraft and others. Do you subscribe to it or reject it?
I ask this because my in-laws both attend the
Vineyard in Anaheim, CA, the church started by John Wimber. More to the point, I was wondering what you think about what's been called the "laughing revival"? I'm not sure what to make of it one way or another. Have a very merry Christmas, and God bless you and
your family.
Jack Farmer | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 12/14/2001 4:48 PM (GMT -6) | | Meph watches with peculiar interest and delight...
(He takes a certain interest in the Third Wave and its theology)
Make this really good, Doc. | | Back to Top | | |
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MrIndifference
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 12/14/2001 5:05 PM (GMT -6) | | I personally don't know a thing about "Third Wave" theology, but the whole "Laughing Revival" seems innocent. I do admit it is a bit out there, but it is nothing like drinking poison or playing with cobra's or the likes.
MrI. :|
________________________________________
He who blesses his friend with a loud voice,
Rising in the morning,
It will be counted a curse to him. | | Back to Top | | |
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 12/28/2001 11:03 AM (GMT -6) | | What are "Third Wave Theology" and the "Laughing Revival"? I have never heard these terms.
--Jewgrass
"If what the Bible says about man is true [man's sinful nature], how could anyone ever possibly be saved? There are two alternatives: the Bible and TULIP Calvinism." --Dr. Laurence M. Vance | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/28/2001 1:51 PM (GMT -6) | | DANGER......
Classroomless teacher sighted (site-ed?).
OK, Last Son Of Krypton, Mephi2K, MrI., and Jewgrass....
Here is "an assignment." (uuuggh!)
Go out on the NET and some of you find descriptions and assessments on the subject by those who are "pro." and the others of you go out and find descriptions and assessments by those "against."
Last Son Of Krypton and MrI. -- you two take the "pro."
Mephi2K and Jewgrass -- you two take the "against."
Meet back here and let the rest of us seewhatchagot!
(Someone call the school janitor to have him let me out of the basement.)
Pot-OFF-Wheel
Edited by - potonwheel on 12/28/2001 11:18:46 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/28/2001 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Meph watches with peculiar interest and delight...
(He takes a certain interest in the Third Wave and its theology)
Make this really good, Doc.
Yeah, make it good Doc.
What do I think of the laughing revival? A-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.  Seriously, I need so much more revived than my laughter. Laugh all you want, or swing from the chandelier, but just "walk straight" when your feet hit the floor. Know what I mean?
Tom
Edited by - TGB on 12/28/2001 7:27:11 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Last Son Of Krypton
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 12/28/2001 6:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Take the "pro" side, eh? Well, like I said in my original post, my in laws both go to the Vineyard in Anaheim, CA. There's no shortage of "pro-Wimber" material around their house. They invited my wife and I to Toronto in 1995 when the L.R. started, so I got to see it first hand. Since then, I've tried to look at both sides fairly. On one hand I've read Hank Hanegraaff's "Counterfeit Revival", as well as listen to numerous radio shows against it.
On the other hand I've read many pro 3rd wave
writers like John Wimber, Jack Deere, Wayne Grudem and many others in order to understand as best as I can. So, I won't need to go to the web to get answers because they're right at my fingertips. I'll be back tomorrow to throw some "pro" stuff at you. | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/4/2002 11:46 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo son of krypton, welcome to the site.
On the whole I am wholly in favor of the third wave movement. They have recovered the centrality of the warfare motif in the NT and the importance of demonstrating the power of the kingdom when announcing the reality of the kingdom. I am friends with Peter Wagner and many in his circle and enjoy their fellowship.
Having said this, I (along with many others in the third wave movement) would want to put a astronomical mile between myself and much of what goes under the geise of the "third wave" movement. MUCH (note, I do not say ALL) of the laughing revival stuff, as well as falling in the spirit, etc... is quite obviously not of the Spirit, but is manufactured. Also, SOME (note, I do not say ALL) of the "spiritual mapping" stuff has gotten out of hand. I do not see the scriptural precedent for, nor any empirically documented advantage of, spending much time discerning the details of the spiritual map in a region and then spending much time (and money, and credibility) rebuking it. If it actually worked, I'd be all over it. But I'm not convinced it does. And since its not clearly taught or illustrated in Scripture, I spend most of my time and money on other things.
Does that answer your question?
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 1/4/2002 2:42 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
as well as falling in the spirit
Doc, I need some clarity here. Are you saying that you believe people being slain in the Spirit is NOT of the Spirit?
I'm a little surprised!!!
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown | | Back to Top | | |
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Last Son Of Krypton
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 1/4/2002 4:15 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Dr. Boyd, Thank you for your reply to my
note. Your response was very helpful. I have listened to many people who were either totally one way or the other about the 3rd Wave. Every Vineyard pastor I've heard is completly pro-laughing revival, pro-slain in the Spirit, pro-"everything" that smacks of the bizzare. It seems, as far as I have observed, that the more strange and bizzare an activity is, the more "spiritual" it is and therefore the more acceptable. It's nice to hear someone "I'm a Third Waver, but...", and express their misgivings about it. Quite honestly, I grow tired of the Hanegraaff's and MacArthur's who totally condemn it and the Arnott's and Wimber's who totally embrace it. Again, thank you for your response. Thanks also for welcoming me to the boards. It's good to meet you. | | Back to Top | | |
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Last Son Of Krypton
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 1/4/2002 4:57 PM (GMT -6) | | I was asked to provide a "pro" perspective a bit earlier. I will attempt that, now. When I went to the Toronto Airport Vineyard in 1994, I heard that a lot of people were emotionally healed. One woman that I knew of had severe intamcy issues with her husband for nearly 35 years. Before they met, she had gotten pregnant and had an abortion. She had never told her husband about it. Even though she was saved, this caused her a tremendous amount of heartache and emotional problems. As a result of prayer, she had an emotional release and inner healing. She was able to finally tell her husband about it and all the pain it had caused her. She was able to grieve properly. To be freed from that kind of psycic turmoil after so many years is a BIG plus in my book. Many people also report having a deepened and/or renewed love for Jesus. There were also cases of people being delivered from demons. Another lady I knew of had severe personality problems and couldn't stand it when praise music was being played. She never reacted that way when other kinds of music was played, just praise and worship. I don't know what happened to her. I only bring her up because praise and worship have been known to drive demonized people wild. Other than that, I'm not prepared to defend anything else. I'll leave that to better minds than mine.
Jack Farmer | | Back to Top | | |
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June
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 105
| Posted 1/4/2002 5:09 PM (GMT -6) | |
The internet has a bunch of good stuff about third wave theology, but i couldn't find too much information on the laughing revival. anybody care to explain? or have a link to a website?
June
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/5/2002 3:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Krypton:
The "laughing revival" was partly to blame for the devastation of a church I formerly attended. I know some who say people have come to salvation as a result of it, but I can't say it was a positive influence for myself.
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 1/5/2002 4:49 AM (GMT -6) | | I tend to agree with what Mr Indifference wrote: quote:
I personally don't know a thing about "Third Wave" theology, but the whole "Laughing Revival" seems innocent. I do admit it is a bit out there, but it is nothing like drinking poison or playing with cobra's or the likes.
It may be a bit "out there" but if people are being saved and changed then I say keep the Spirit moving!
still_unsure said:
quote:
The "laughing revival" was partly to blame for the devastation of a church I formerly attended.
Maybe, just maybe, Satan was more to blame than the "laughing revival" for the devastation. What do you think? It appears to be inevitable that whenever there is a major disagreement in the vision of how a church will function ... a break seems to follow. This break would be fine except doesn't it usually appear that unresolved issues or pride tend to surface which ends up building a wall so to speak in the Body of Christ. When I hear of a church dividing I always immediately get this picture of Satan laughing heartily in his success because the division almost always brings about some hard feelings between believers.
I'm still unclear about what what Doc wrote:
quote:
MUCH (note, I do not say ALL) of the laughing revival stuff, as well as falling in the spirit, etc... is quite obviously not of the Spirit, but is manufactured
Doc, how do you know that the majority of the time "falling in the Spirit" is NOT of the Spirit? How would we be able to judge when "falling in the Spirit" is manufactured and when it is authentic? I am seeking clarity in these questions because I am confused.
I say: "Lord, revive us in WHATEVER way YOU choose to work!!!"
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown | | Back to Top | | |
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still_unsure
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 54
| Posted 1/5/2002 1:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi trosie:
Perhaps I need to qualify what I mean when I place partial blame on the "laughing revival". You are probably correct when you say that unresolved issues and pride were also responsible. Let me relate a little of what occured- from my perspective.
I first heard of the "laughing revival" by reading about it in a magazine...I think Christianity Today. A story about Rodney Howard Brown (hope I got the name right). I was intrigued by the possibility of a "new" movement of God occuring in my generation, but I never gave it much more thought. Move ahead one or two years. The "laughing revival" breaks out in Toronto. It generated much excitement and publicity amongst the charismatic churches(mine included) in our area as we are fairly close to Toronto. Our pastor attended a meeting there to "check it out". He came back convinced that the Holy Spirit was ABSOLUTELY involved in a big way. In association with another church, we began holding "revival" meetings in hope that this "new movement" would give much needed influence in our area for Christ. I think I can honestly say that in the beginning most, if not all in our chuch supported this move. John Arnott himself attended some of the first meetings we held. But things started to change. Lauging was certainly a prevelent manifestation in the beginning, but others began to occur. Barking, clucking like a chicken,"birthing in the spirit"(people actually going through the motions), Demonic manifestations those in charge were unable to control...Some of us began to become concerned but we were hushed and assured that this was all part of God's new movement. The congregation gradually polarized and when it finally became spiritually unhealthy for my family to remain I asked the Pastor if he would meet with me to talk about what was happening. When I asked him about the possibility that this "move of God" may have become a "move of flesh" his reply was simply "what if it is a move of God, we mustn't quench the spirit". I wrote a letter to the elders and pastors informing them that my family couldn't remain and wishing them the best. I tried not to leave in bitterness but I don't think I was altogether succesfull. That church was my HOME. We built it but 10 years previously. The pre-movement congregation of 350-400 has dwindled to perhaps 100-150. But they still remain associated with that ministry. Some of those who left after we did no longer attend church, some (my sister included) have fallen away from the faith completely. Do I bear some responsibilty for what occured? Absolutely. Would our chuch be intact we hadn't embraced the "laughing revival"? Don't know. Did it accelerate a possible pre=existing problem? I think so. Is Satan lauging heartily about this whole issue? Certainly. Is God heartbroken? I'm sure he is.
I now feel that the Charismatic church is a little to quick to embrace "new" movements. However trosie I do agree with you that not all those "slain in the spirit" are faking it. My wife came to Christ after such an experience. I was at a meeting where the Holy Spirit was almost palpable. My skeptical wife, who had gone to the bar with her friends, reluctantly agreed to meet me at the meeting later on. She was dropped of by her friends and was waiting outside when I convinced her to come in for the last few minutes of the meeting. When someone at the front asked for those with back pain to come up for prayer I convinced her to go. What could it hurt. I can honestly say that her experience was the only one I know of as legitimate, although I'm sure there are many others. Her experience was so powerful that, for her, conversion was no longer as option. What an answer to prayer!
Blessings
Rob
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Last Son Of Krypton
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 15
| Posted 1/5/2002 6:18 PM (GMT -6) | | still unsure-Sorry to hear about your church.
Church splits and family divisions are not what the Holy Spirit is all about. Anyone who says otherwise will have to climb a mountain of verses calling the church to unity and maturity. The only time we are called to split from the church is when the church stops teaching orthodox doctrine. I've heard too many horror stories about this movement to be able to say that it's totally of God. It seems that one has to pick through a LOT of bones to get to the meaty parts. You're right about the charismatic movement being too quick to embrace new things. Not the entire movement, mind you. Just some factions of it. There are a lot of clear thinking charismatics out there who don't buy into things like the laughing revival. I agree with what Dr. Boyd said earlier about wanting to put a distance between himself and much of what is called "third wave". The same goes for the charismatic movement as a whole. Chuck Smith of Calvry Chapel wrote a book called "Charisma vs Charismainia" that address many of the concerns you brought up. It was written long before the L.R. but much of what he says in it could be applied here as well. He grew up in the Foursqure church and he's seen it all, so he knows whereof he speaks.
Jack Farmer | | Back to Top | | |
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 1/6/2002 4:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
still_unsure: Barking, clucking like a chicken,"birthing in the spirit"(people actually going through the motions), Demonic manifestations those in charge were unable to control...Some of us began to become concerned but we were hushed and assured that this was all part of God's new movement.
I wonder if these manifestations should have been tested by the Spirit? What fruit were they producing in the lives of the people? I doubt that there are any godly fruits coming from a person "barking like a dog", "clucking like a chicken," "acting out giving birth," heck I even have heard of people "burping in the Spirit." COME ON! GIVE ME A BREAK!!! How could the leadership simply give you a response that they didn't want to question and test if indeed these actions were truly the move of God! Perhaps the lack of checking these things out with the word of God and the fruit that was being produced is what stifled God's moving more powerfully in that movement at your church? Perhaps Satan strategically started to inject some BIZARRE fleshly thoughts into peoples minds (making it appear as though they were the works of the Spirit) knowing this would be the beginning of doubt and inevitably division for your church.
Still_unsure, I guess I would have felt the same way as you had. I'm sorry you had to leave a church that you had helped build. It appears that you tried to leave without causing division or hard feelings. When I wrote about differences causing division, and this being the working of Satan, I did NOT think of you. I was thinking of all the church divisions I've personally experienced or known about.
quote:
still_unsure: I do agree with you that not all those "slain in the spirit" are faking it
Yes, this is one that you can see godly fruit from. When a person is being "slain in the Spirit" they are being totally vulnerable and submissive to the Holy Spirit and allowing the Spirit to minister to them. This is NOT like the other manifestations that were named above because this one serves a godly purpose. I still would like to understand why the Doc thinks most of "falling in the Spirit" is manufactured???
quote:
Last Son Of Krypton: I've heard too many horror stories about this movement to be able to say that it's totally of God. It seems that one has to pick through a LOT of bones to get to the meaty parts.
It appears to me that this would be a very strategic move on Satan's part to mix in a lot of bizarre manifestations in order to disable the power that COULD result -- don't you think? WHAT A WARFARE!
Thank God for the gift of discernment!!!
trosie
"Sometimes when your heart breaks God is the only one who can put it together again." Author Unknown
Edited by - trosie on 01/06/2002 11:20:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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road2emmaus
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 1
| Posted 1/6/2002 6:15 PM (GMT -6) | | For those interested in a well-balanced investigative report on the "Toronto Blessing" with its laughing and various other phenomena, I would highly recommend a book by a former seminary prof of mine who's based here in Toronto:
Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing by Dr. James Beverly, Zondervan, 1995
Includes interviews with Wimber, Arnott, and Bickle, among others.
Edited by - road2emmaus on 01/06/2002 11:19:35 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 1/7/2002 5:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Trosie, I don't believe that being "slain" in the Spirit is definitely NOT of God. Nor do I believe that every instance of "laughing in the Spirit" or whatever is NOT of God. I think that sometimes it is. I've never been "slain," but I have once come under the joy of the Spirit to the point that I laughed hysterically for 20 minutes (this was in 1976, long before anyone ever heard of it!).
I have no problem with the Spirit manifesting anyway he chooses. But the attention and focus should always be on Jesus Christ. What invariably happens is that some people try to "package" the effects of the Spirits working, take it on the role, and then try to make it happen. When this occurs, Christianity turns into a carnival and the abuse we've read about in this thread occurs. I am TOTALLY against that.
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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