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might-be-don
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 1/31/2002 7:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | I believe it was hinted at in Doc's, "God at War" , that "other" gods existed. I don't think "other" gods were described in any detail, but I found the idea interesting. We do alot of comparing God to us mere mortals, but how does he stack up against these "other" gods. The way Doc spoke about them made them sound like more than just your average wooden idol.
I asked the Doc what these other gods looked like and he responded that they looked alot like him :) .
Anybody have any ideas about these "other" gods. God does describe himself as the "Lord of Lords". Who are these other Lords?
peace and love, don
A quote from Rev. Gregory A. Boyd, PhD ... " Has anyone seen my keys? "
Edited by - might-be-don on 01/31/2002 12:30:10 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/4/2002 7:10 PM (GMT -6) | | Yo my man,
Not sure what you’re asking for, but I think it very important to realize that the Bible assumes the existence of gods. There is only one creator GOD, but there are many "gods." They factor in significantly to the biblical worldview. I think this is one of the most underemphasized aspects of theology today.
Looking at the pervasiveness of the Bibles teaching on gods and "heavenly hosts" really affects ones world view. WE ARE SURROUNDED by gods! So, for your general education, my dear friend, I’ve taken the trouble of providing you with SOME of the Bible’s teaching on this. Study all these verses CAREFULLY!
Dan. 11:39 He shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god. Those who acknowledge him he shall make more wealthy, and shall appoint them as rulers over many, and shall distribute the land for a price.
Mic. 4:5 ¶ For all the peoples walk,
each in the name of its god,
but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God
forever and ever.
2Cor. 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1Cor. 8:5 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords—
Ex. 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike down every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both human beings and animals; on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD.
Ex. 15:11 ¶ "Who is like you, O LORD, among the gods?
Who is like you, majestic in holiness,
awesome in splendor, doing wonders?
Ex. 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods, because he delivered the people from the Egyptians, when they dealt arrogantly with them."
Ex. 20:3 you shall have no other gods before me.
Ex. 23:13 Be attentive to all that I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.
Ex. 23:32 You shall make no covenant with them and their gods.
Ex. 23:33 They shall not live in your land, or they will make you sin against me; for if you worship their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.
Ex. 34:15 You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.
Deut. 7:16 You shall devour all the peoples that the LORD your God is giving over to you, showing them no pity; you shall not serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.
Deut. 11:16 Take care, or you will be seduced into turning away, serving other gods and worshiping them,
Deut. 11:28 and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn from the way that I am commanding you today, to follow other gods that you have not known.
Deut. 12:2 ¶ You must demolish completely all the places where the nations whom you are about to dispossess served their gods, on the mountain heights, on the hills, and under every leafy tree.
Deut. 12:3 Break down their altars, smash their pillars, burn their sacred poles with fire, and hew down the idols of their gods, and thus blot out their name from their places.
Deut. 12:30 take care that you are not snared into imitating them, after they have been destroyed before you: do not inquire concerning their gods, saying, "How did these nations worship their gods? I also want to do the same."
Deut. 13:7 any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other,
Deut. 13:13 that scoundrels from among you have gone out and led the inhabitants of the town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods," whom you have not known,
Deut. 17:3 by going to serve other gods and worshiping them—whether the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden—
Deut. 28:14 and if you do not turn aside from any of the words that I am commanding you today, either to the right or to the left, following other gods to serve them.
Deut. 32:43 ¶ Praise, O heavens, his people,
worship him, all you gods!
Deut. 33:27 He subdues the ancient gods,
shatters the forces of old;
he drove out the enemy before you,
and said, "Destroy!"
Josh. 22:22 "The LORD, God of gods! The LORD, God of gods! He knows; and let Israel itself know! If it was in rebellion or in breach of faith toward the LORD, do not spare us today
Josh. 24:15 Now if you are unwilling to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."
Josh. 24:16 ¶ Then the people answered, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;
Josh. 24:20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then he will turn and do you harm, and consume you, after having done you good."
Judg. 2:3 So now I say, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall become adversaries to you, and their gods shall be a snare to you."
Judg. 2:12 and they abandoned the LORD, the God of their ancestors, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt; they followed other gods, from among the gods of the peoples who were all around them, and bowed down to them; and they provoked the LORD to anger.
Judg. 2:17 Yet they did not listen even to their judges; for they lusted after other gods and bowed down to them. They soon turned aside from the way in which their ancestors had walked, who had obeyed the commandments of the LORD; they did not follow their example.
Judg. 2:19 But whenever the judge died, they would relapse and behave worse than their ancestors, following other gods, worshiping them and bowing down to them. They would not drop any of their practices or their stubborn ways.
Judg. 3:6 and they took their daughters as wives for themselves, and their own daughters they gave to their sons; and they worshiped their gods.
Judg. 9:13 But the vine said to them,
‘Shall I stop producing my wine
that cheers gods and mortals,
and go to sway over the trees?’
udg. 10:13 Yet you have abandoned me and worshiped other gods; therefore I will deliver you no more.
Judg. 10:14 Go and cry to the gods whom you have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your distress."
1Sam. 8:8 Just as they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so also they are doing to you.
1Sam. 17:43 The Philistine said to David, "Am I a dog, that you come to me with sticks?" And the Philistine cursed David by his gods.
1Sam. 26:19 Now therefore let my lord the king hear the words of his servant. If it is the LORD who has stirred you up against me, may he accept an offering; but if it is mortals, may they be cursed before the LORD, for they have driven me out today from my share in the heritage of the LORD, saying, ‘Go, serve other gods.’
2Sam. 7:23 Who is like your people, like Israel? Is there another nation on earth whose God went to redeem it as a people, and to make a name for himself, doing great and awesome things for them, by driving out before his people nations and their gods?
1Kings 9:6 ¶ "If you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes that I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them,
1Kings 9:9 Then they will say, ‘Because they have forsaken the LORD their God, who brought their ancestors out of the land of Egypt, and embraced other gods, worshiping them and serving them; therefore the LORD has brought this disaster upon them.’"
1Kings 11:2 from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the Israelites, "You shall not enter into marriage with them, neither shall they with you; for they will surely incline your heart to follow their gods"; Solomon clung to these in love.
1Kings 11:4 For when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not true to the LORD his God, as was the heart of his father David.
1Kings 11:8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who offered incense and sacrificed to their gods.
1Kings 11:10 and had commanded him concerning this matter, that he should not follow other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD commanded.
1Kings 12:28 So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. He said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."
1Kings 14:9 but you have done evil above all those who were before you and have gone and made for yourself other gods, and cast images, provoking me to anger, and have thrust me behind your back;
1Kings 19:2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, "So may the gods do to me, and more also, if I do not make your life like the life of one of them by this time tomorrow."
1Kings 20:10 Ben-hadad sent to him and said, "The gods do so to me, and more also, if the dust of Samaria will provide a handful for each of the people who follow me."
1Kings 20:23 ¶ The servants of the king of Aram said to him, "Their gods are gods of the hills, and so they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they.
2Kings 17:7 ¶ This occurred because the people of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. They had worshiped other gods
2Kings 18:33 Has any of the gods of the nations ever delivered its land out of the hand of the king of Assyria?
1Chr. 5:25 But they transgressed against the God of their ancestors, and prostituted themselves to the gods of the peoples of the land, whom God had destroyed before them.
2Chr. 25:20 ¶ But Amaziah would not listen—it was God’s doing, in order to hand them over, because they had sought the gods of Edom.
2Chr. 28:23 For he sacrificed to the gods of Damascus, which had defeated him, and said, "Because the gods of the kings of Aram helped them, I will sacrifice to them so that they may help me." But they were the ruin of him, and of all Israel.
2Chr. 32:14 Who among all the gods of those nations that my ancestors utterly destroyed was able to save his people from my hand, that your God should be able to save you from my hand?
Job 41:9 Any hope of capturing it will be disappointed;
were not even the gods overwhelmed at the sight of it?
Job 41:25 When it raises itself up the gods are afraid;
at the crashing they are beside themselves.
Psa. 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Psa. 82:6 ¶ I say, "You are gods,
children of the Most High, all of you;
Psa. 84:7 They go from strength to strength;
the God of gods will be seen in Zion.
Psa. 86:8 ¶ There is none like you among the gods, O Lord,
nor are there any works like yours.
Psa. 95:3 For the LORD is a great God,
and a great King above all gods.
Psa. 96:4 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised;
he is to be revered above all gods.
Psa. 97:7 All worshipers of images are put to shame,
those who make their boast in worthless idols;
all gods bow down before him.
Psa. 97:9 For you, O LORD, are most high over all the earth;
you are exalted far above all gods.
Deut. 4:7 For what other great nation has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is whenever we call to him?
Deut. 4:34 Or has any god ever attempted to go and take a nation for himself from the midst of another nation, by trials, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, and by terrifying displays of power, as the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?
Deut. 32:12 the LORD alone guided him;
no foreign god was with him.
Judg. 11:24 Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that the LORD our God has conquered for our benefit?
udg. 16:23 ¶ Now the lords of the Philistines gathered to offer a great sacrifice to their god Dagon, and to rejoice; for they said, "Our god has given Samson our enemy into our hand."
Judg. 16:24 When the people saw him, they praised their god; for they
1Sam. 5:7 And when the inhabitants of Ashdod saw how things were, they said, "The ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us; for his hand is heavy on us and on our god Dagon."
1Kings 11:33 This is because he has forsaken me, worshiped Astarte the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the Ammonites, and has not walked in my ways, doing what is right in my sight and keeping my statutes and my ordinances, as his father David did.
2Kings 17:26 So the king of Assyria was told, "The nations that you have carried away and placed in the cities of Samaria do not know the law of the god of the land; therefore he has sent lions among them; they are killing them, because they do not know the law of the god of the land."
Is. 17:10 ¶ For you have forgotten the God of your salvation,
and have not remembered the Rock of your refuge;
therefore, though you plant pleasant plants
and set out slips of an alien god,
Ezek. 28:6 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:
Because you compare your mind
with the mind of a god,
Ezek. 28:9 Will you still say, "I am a god,"
in the presence of those who kill you,
though you are but a mortal, and no god,
in the hands of those who wound you?
AND THEN, OF COURSE, THERE IS THE PERVASIVE TEACHING ON THE "HEAVENLY HOSTS" (WHICH THE NIV "TRANSLATES" "LORD ALMIGHTY"!!!)
1Sam. 1:3 ¶ Now this man used to go up year by year from his town to worship and to sacrifice to the LORD of hosts at Shiloh, where the two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were priests of the LORD.
1Sam. 1:11 She made this vow: "O LORD of hosts, if only you will look on the misery of your servant, and remember me, and not forget your servant, but will give to your servant a male child, then I will set him before you as a nazirite until the day of his death. He shall drink neither wine nor intoxicants, and no razor shall touch his head."
1Sam. 4:4 So the people sent to Shiloh, and brought from there the ark of the covenant of the LORD of hosts, who is enthroned on the cherubim. The two sons of Eli, Hophni and Phinehas, were there with the ark of the covenant of God.
1Sam. 15:2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt.
1Sam. 17:45 But David said to the Philistine, "You come to me with sword and spear and javelin; but I come to you in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied.
2Sam. 5:10 And David became greater and greater, for the LORD, the God of hosts, was with him.
2Sam. 6:2 David and all the people with him set out and went from Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned on the cherubim.
2Sam. 6:18 When David had finished offering the burnt offerings and the offerings of well-being, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts,
2Sam. 7:8 Now therefore thus you shall say to my servant David: Thus says the LORD of hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep to be prince over my people Israel;
2Sam. 7:26 Thus your name will be magnified forever in the saying, ‘The LORD of hosts is God over Israel’; and the house of your servant David will be established before you.
2Sam. 7:27 For you, O LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, have made this revelation to your servant, saying, ‘I will build you a house’; therefore your servant has found courage to pray this prayer to you.
1Kings 18:15 Elijah said, "As the LORD of hosts lives, before whom I stand, I will surely show myself to him today."
1Kings 19:10 He answered, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the Israelites have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left, and they are seeking my life, to take it away."
1Kings 19:14 He answered, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the Israelites have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword. I alone am left, and they are seeking my life, to take it away."
2Kings 3:14 Elisha said, "As the LORD of hosts lives, whom I serve, were it not that I have regard for King Jehoshaphat of Judah, I would give you neither a look nor a glance.
2Kings 19:31 for from Jerusalem a remnant shall go out, and from Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
1Chr. 11:9 And David became greater and greater, for the LORD of hosts was with him.
1Chr. 17:7 Now therefore thus you shall say to my servant David: Thus says the LORD of hosts: I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people Israel;
1Chr. 17:24 Thus your name will be established and magnified forever in the saying, ‘The LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, is Israel’s God’; and the house of your servant David will be established in your presence.
Psa. 24:10 Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
he is the King of glory. Selah
Psa. 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us;
the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
Psa. 46:11 The LORD of hosts is with us;
the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah
Psa. 48:8 As we have heard, so have we seen
in the city of the LORD of hosts,
in the city of our God,
which God establishes forever. Selah
Psa. 59:5 You, LORD God of hosts, are God of Israel.
Awake to punish all the nations;
spare none of those who treacherously plot evil. Selah
Psa. 69:6 ¶ Do not let those who hope in you be put to shame because of me,
O Lord GOD of hosts;
do not let those who seek you be dishonored because of me,
O God of Israel.
Psa. 80:4 ¶ O LORD God of hosts,
how long will you be angry with your people’s prayers?
Psa. 80:7 ¶ Restore us, O God of hosts;
let your face shine, that we may be saved.
Psa. 80:14 ¶ Turn again, O God of hosts;
look down from heaven, and see;
have regard for this vine,
Psa. 80:19 ¶ Restore us, O LORD God of hosts;
let your face shine, that we may be saved.
Psa. 84:1 How lovely is your dwelling place,
O LORD of hosts!
Psa. 84:3 ¶ Even the sparrow finds a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may lay her young,
at your altars, O LORD of hosts,
my King and my God.
Psa. 84:8 ¶ O LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer;
give ear, O God of Jacob! Selah
Psa. 84:12 O LORD of hosts,
happy is everyone who trusts in you.
Psa. 89:8 O LORD God of hosts,
who is as mighty as you, O LORD?
Your faithfulness surrounds you.
Psa. 103:21 Bless the LORD, all his hosts,
his ministers that do his will.
Is. 1:9 If the LORD of hosts
had not left us a few survivors,
we would have been like Sodom,
and become like Gomorrah.
Is. 1:24 ¶ Therefore says the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel:
Ah, I will pour out my wrath on my enemies,
and avenge myself on my foes!
Is. 2:12 For the LORD of hosts has a day
against all that is proud and lofty,
against all that is lifted up and high;
Is. 3:1 For now the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts,
is taking away from Jerusalem and from Judah
support and staff—
all support of bread,
and all support of water—
Is. 3:15 What do you mean by crushing my people,
by grinding the face of the poor? says the Lord GOD of hosts.
Is. 5:7 ¶ For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts
is the house of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are his pleasant planting;
he expected justice,
but saw bloodshed;
righteousness,
but heard a cry!
Is. 5:9 The LORD of hosts has sworn in my hearing:
Surely many houses shall be desolate,
large and beautiful houses, without inhabitant.
Is. 5:16 But the LORD of hosts is exalted by justice,
and the Holy God shows himself holy by righteousness.
Is. 5:24 Therefore, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble,
and as dry grass sinks down in the flame,
so their root will become rotten,
and their blossom go up like dust;
for they have rejected the instruction of the LORD of hosts,
and have despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Is. 6:3 And one called to another and said:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory."
Is. 6:5 And I said: "Woe is me! I am lost, for I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
Is. 8:13 But the LORD of hosts, him you shall regard as holy; let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Is. 8:18 See, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion.
Is. 9:7 His authority shall grow continually,
and there shall be endless peace
for the throne of David and his kingdom.
He will establish and uphold it
with justice and with righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Is. 9:13 ¶ The people did not turn to him who struck them,
or seek the LORD of hosts.
Is. 9:19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts
the land was burned,
and the people became like fuel for the fire;
no one spared another.
Is. 10:16 Therefore the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts,
will send wasting sickness among his stout warriors,
and under his glory a burning will be kindled,
like the burning of fire.
Is. 10:23 For the Lord GOD of hosts will make a full end, as decreed, in all the earth.
Is. 10:24 ¶ Therefore thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: O my people, who live in Zion, do not be afraid of the Assyrians when they beat you with a rod and lift up their staff against you as the Egyptians did.
Is. 10:26 The LORD of hosts will wield a whip against them, as when he struck Midian at the rock of Oreb; his staff will be over the sea, and he will lift it as he did in Egypt.
Is. 10:33 ¶ Look, the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts,
will lop the boughs with terrifying power;
the tallest trees will be cut down,
and the lofty will be brought low.
Is. 13:4 ¶ Listen, a tumult on the mountains
as of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar of kingdoms,
of nations gathering together!
The LORD of hosts is mustering
an army for battle.
Is. 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts
in the day of his fierce anger.
Is. 14:22 ¶ I will rise up against them, says the LORD of hosts, and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, offspring and posterity, says the LORD.
Is. 14:23 And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction, says the LORD of hosts.
Is. 14:24 ¶ The LORD of hosts has sworn:
As I have designed,
so shall it be;
and as I have planned,
so shall it come to pass:
Is. 14:27 For the LORD of hosts has planned,
and who will annul it?
His hand is stretched out,
and who will turn it back?
Is. 17:3 The fortress will disappear from Ephraim,
and the kingdom from Damascus;
and the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the children of Israel, says the LORD of hosts.
Is. 18:7 ¶ At that time gifts will be brought to the LORD of hosts from a people tall and smooth, from a people feared near and far, a nation mighty and conquering, whose land the rivers divide, to Mount Zion, the place of the name of the LORD of hosts.
Is. 19:4 I will deliver the Egyptians
into the hand of a hard master;
a fierce king will rule over them,
says the Sovereign, the LORD of hosts.
Is. 19:12 Where now are your sages?
Let them tell you and make known
what the LORD of hosts has planned against Egypt.
Is. 19:16 ¶ On that day the Egyptians will be like women, and tremble with fear before the hand that the LORD of hosts raises against them.
Is. 19:17 And the land of Judah will become a terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom it is mentioned will fear because of the plan that the LORD of hosts is planning against them.
Is. 19:18 ¶ On that day there will be five cities in the land of Egypt that speak the language of Canaan and swear allegiance to the LORD of hosts. One of these will be called the City of the Sun.
Is. 19:20 It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; when they cry to the LORD because of oppressors, he will send them a savior, and will defend and deliver them.
Is. 19:25 whom the LORD of hosts has blessed, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel my heritage."
Is. 21:10 O my threshed and winnowed one,
what I have heard from the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel, I announce to you.
Is. 22:5 ¶ For the Lord GOD of hosts has a day
of tumult and trampling and confusion
in the valley of vision,
a battering down of walls
and a cry for help to the mountains.
Is. 22:12 ¶ In that day the Lord GOD of hosts
called to weeping and mourning,
to baldness and putting on sackcloth;
Is. 22:14 The LORD of hosts has revealed himself in my ears:
Surely this iniquity will not be forgiven you until you die,
says the Lord GOD of hosts.
Is. 22:15 ¶ Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts: Come, go to this steward, to Shebna, who is master of the household, and say to him:
Is. 22:25 On that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg that was fastened in a secure place will give way; it will be cut down and fall, and the load that was on it will perish, for the LORD has spoken.
Is. 23:9 The LORD of hosts has planned it—
to defile the pride of all glory,
to shame all the honored of the earth.
Is. 24:23 Then the moon will be abashed,
and the sun ashamed;
for the LORD of hosts will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before his elders he will manifest his glory.
Is. 25:6 ¶ On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wines,
of rich food filled with marrow, of well-aged wines strained clear.
Is. 28:5 ¶ In that day the LORD of hosts will be a garland of glory,
and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people;
Is. 28:22 Now therefore do not scoff,
or your bonds will be made stronger;
for I have heard a decree of destruction
from the Lord GOD of hosts upon the whole land.
Is. 28:29 This also comes from the LORD of hosts;
he is wonderful in counsel,
and excellent in wisdom.
Is. 29:6 you will be visited by the LORD of hosts
with thunder and earthquake and great noise,
with whirlwind and tempest, and the flame of a devouring fire.
Is. 31:4 ¶ For thus the LORD said to me,
As a lion or a young lion growls over its prey,
and—when a band of shepherds is called out against it—
is not terrified by their shouting
or daunted at their noise,
so the LORD of hosts will come down
to fight upon Mount Zion and upon its hill.
Is. 31:5 Like birds hovering overhead, so the LORD of hosts
will protect Jerusalem;
he will protect and deliver it,
he will spare and rescue it.
Is. 37:16 "O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, who are enthroned above the cherubim, you are God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.
Is. 37:32 for from Jerusalem a remnant shall go out, and from Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Is. 39:5 ¶ Then Isaiah said to Hezekiah, "Hear the word of the LORD of hosts:
Is. 44:6 ¶ Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
Is. 45:13 I have aroused Cyrus in righteousness,
and I will make all his paths straight;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,
says the LORD of hosts.
Is. 47:4 ¶ Our Redeemer—the LORD of hosts is his name—
is the Holy One of Israel.
Is. 48:2 ¶ For they call themselves after the holy city,
and lean on the God of Israel;
the LORD of hosts is his name.
Is. 51:15 ¶ For I am the LORD your God,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the LORD of hosts is his name.
Is. 54:5 For your Maker is your husband,
the LORD of hosts is his name;
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
Jer. 2:19 Your wickedness will punish you,
and your apostasies will convict you.
Know and see that it is evil and bitter
for you to forsake the LORD your God;
the fear of me is not in you, says the Lord GOD of hosts.
Jer. 5:14 ¶ Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of hosts:
Because they have spoken this word,
I am now making my words in your mouth a fire,
and this people wood, and the fire shall devour them.
Jer. 6:6 For thus says the LORD of hosts:
Cut down her trees;
cast up a siege ramp against Jerusalem.
This is the city that must be punished;
there is nothing but oppression within her.
RAN OUT OF SPACE. SORRY.
DOC
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/4/2002 7:12 PM (GMT -6) | | HERE'S SOME MORE, IN CASE YOU'RE NOT CONVINCED.
Amos 5:16 ¶ Therefore thus says the LORD, the God of hosts, the Lord:
In all the squares there shall be wailing;
and in all the streets they shall say, "Alas! alas!"
They shall call the farmers to mourning,
and those skilled in lamentation, to wailing;
Amos 5:27 therefore I will take you into exile beyond Damascus, says the LORD, whose name is the God of hosts.
Amos 6:8 ¶ The Lord GOD has sworn by himself
(says the LORD, the God of hosts):
I abhor the pride of Jacob
and hate his strongholds;
and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it.
Amos 6:14 Indeed, I am raising up against you a nation,
O house of Israel, says the LORD, the God of hosts,
and they shall oppress you from Lebo-hamath
to the Wadi Arabah.
Amos 9:5 ¶ The Lord, GOD of hosts,
he who touches the earth and it melts,
and all who live in it mourn,
and all of it rises like the Nile,
and sinks again, like the Nile of Egypt;
Mic. 4:4 but they shall all sit under their own vines and under their own fig trees,
and no one shall make them afraid;
for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
Nah. 2:13 ¶ See, I am against you, says the LORD of hosts, and I will burn your chariots in smoke, and the sword shall devour your young lions; I will cut off your prey from the earth, and the voice of your messengers shall be heard no more.
Nah. 3:5 I am against you,
says the LORD of hosts,
and will lift up your skirts over your face;
and I will let nations look on your nakedness
and kingdoms on your shame.
Hab. 2:13 Is it not from the LORD of hosts
that peoples labor only to feed the flames,
and nations weary themselves for nothing?
Zeph. 2:9 Therefore, as I live, says the LORD of hosts,
the God of Israel,
Moab shall become like Sodom
and the Ammonites like Gomorrah,
a land possessed by nettles and salt pits,
and a waste forever.
The remnant of my people shall plunder them,
and the survivors of my nation shall possess them.
Zeph. 2:10 This shall be their lot in return for their pride,
because they scoffed and boasted
against the people of the LORD of hosts.
Hag. 1:2 Thus says the LORD of hosts: These people say the time has not yet come to rebuild the LORD’S house.
Hag. 1:5 Now therefore thus says the LORD of hosts: Consider how you have fared.
Hag. 1:7 ¶ Thus says the LORD of hosts: Consider how you have fared.
Hag. 1:9 You have looked for much, and, lo, it came to little; and when you brought it home, I blew it away. Why? says the LORD of hosts. Because my house lies in ruins, while all of you hurry off to your own houses.
Hag. 1:14 And the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and worked on the house of the LORD of hosts, their God,
Hag. 2:4 Yet now take courage, O Zerubbabel, says the LORD; take courage, O Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; take courage, all you people of the land, says the LORD; work, for I am with you, says the LORD of hosts,
Hag. 2:6 For thus says the LORD of hosts: Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and the dry land;
Hag. 2:7 and I will shake all the nations, so that the treasure of all nations shall come, and I will fill this house with splendor, says the LORD of hosts.
Hag. 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says the LORD of hosts.
Hag. 2:9 The latter splendor of this house shall be greater than the former, says the LORD of hosts; and in this place I will give prosperity, says the LORD of hosts.
Hag. 2:11 Thus says the LORD of hosts: Ask the priests for a ruling:
Hag. 2:23 On that day, says the LORD of hosts, I will take you, O Zerubbabel my servant, son of Shealtiel, says the LORD, and make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you, says the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 1:3 Therefore say to them, Thus says the LORD of hosts: Return to me, says the LORD of hosts, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 1:4 Do not be like your ancestors, to whom the former prophets proclaimed, "Thus says the LORD of hosts, Return from your evil ways and from your evil deeds." But they did not hear or heed me, says the LORD.
Zech. 1:6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not overtake your ancestors? So they repented and said, "The LORD of hosts has dealt with us according to our ways and deeds, just as he planned to do."
Zech. 1:12 Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which you have been angry these seventy years?"
Zech. 1:14 So the angel who talked with me said to me, Proclaim this message: Thus says the LORD of hosts; I am very jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion.
Zech. 1:16 Therefore, thus says the LORD, I have returned to Jerusalem with compassion; my house shall be built in it, says the LORD of hosts, and the measuring line shall be stretched out over Jerusalem.
Zech. 1:17 Proclaim further: Thus says the LORD of hosts: My cities shall again overflow with prosperity; the LORD will again comfort Zion and again choose Jerusalem.
Zech. 2:8 For thus said the LORD of hosts (after his glory sent me) regarding the nations that plundered you: Truly, one who touches you touches the apple of my eye.
Zech. 2:9 See now, I am going to raise my hand against them, and they shall become plunder for their own slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me.
Zech. 2:11 Many nations shall join themselves to the LORD on that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in your midst. And you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
Zech. 3:7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here.
Zech. 3:9 For on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven facets, I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the guilt of this land in a single day.
Zech. 3:10 On that day, says the LORD of hosts, you shall invite each other to come under your vine and fig tree."
Zech. 4:6 He said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, says the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 4:9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.
Zech. 5:4 I have sent it out, says the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter the house of the thief, and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name; and it shall abide in that house and consume it, both timber and stones."
Zech. 6:12 say to him: Thus says the LORD of hosts: Here is a man whose name is Branch: for he shall branch out in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD.
Zech. 6:15 ¶ Those who are far off shall come and help to build the temple of the LORD; and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.
Zech. 7:3 and to ask the priests of the house of the LORD of hosts and the prophets, "Should I mourn and practice abstinence in the fifth month, as I have done for so many years?"
Zech. 7:4 Then the word of the LORD of hosts came to me:
Zech. 7:9 Thus says the LORD of hosts: Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another;
Zech. 7:12 They made their hearts adamant in order not to hear the law and the words that the LORD of hosts had sent by his spirit through the former prophets. Therefore great wrath came from the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 7:13 Just as, when I called, they would not hear, so, when they called, I would not hear, says the LORD of hosts,
Zech. 8:1 ¶ The word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying:
Zech. 8:2 Thus says the LORD of hosts: I am jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I am jealous for her with great wrath.
Zech. 8:3 Thus says the LORD: I will return to Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem; Jerusalem shall be called the faithful city, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts shall be called the holy mountain.
Zech. 8:4 Thus says the LORD of hosts: Old men and old women shall again sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with staff in hand because of their great age.
Zech. 8:6 Thus says the LORD of hosts: Even though it seems impossible to the remnant of this people in these days, should it also seem impossible to me, says the LORD of hosts?
Zech. 8:7 Thus says the LORD of hosts: I will save my people from the east country and from the west country;
Zech. 8:9 ¶ Thus says the LORD of hosts: Let your hands be strong—you that have recently been hearing these words from the mouths of the prophets who were present when the foundation was laid for the rebuilding of the temple, the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 8:11 But now I will not deal with the remnant of this people as in the former days, says the LORD of hosts.
Zech. 8:14 ¶ For thus says the LORD of hosts: Just as I purposed to bring disaster upon you, when your ancestors provoked me to wrath, and I did not relent, says the LORD of hosts,
Zech. 8:18 ¶ The word of the LORD of hosts came to me, saying:
Zech. 8:19 Thus says the LORD of hosts: The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall be seasons of joy and gladness, and cheerful festivals for the house of Judah: therefore love truth and peace.
Zech. 8:20 ¶ Thus says the LORD of hosts: Peoples shall yet come, the inhabitants of many cities;
Zech. 8:21 the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, "Come, let us go to entreat the favor of the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts; I myself am going."
Zech. 8:22 Many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to entreat the favor of the LORD.
Zech. 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from nations of every language shall take hold of a Jew, grasping his garment and saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."
Zech. 9:15 The LORD of hosts will protect them,
and they shall devour and tread down the slingers;
they shall drink their blood like wine,
and be full like a bowl,
drenched like the corners of the altar.
Zech. 10:3 ¶ My anger is hot against the shepherds,
and I will punish the leaders;
for the LORD of hosts cares for his flock, the house of Judah,
and will make them like his proud war horse.
Zech. 12:5 Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, "The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the LORD of hosts, their God."
Zech. 13:2 ¶ On that day, says the LORD of hosts, I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, so that they shall be remembered no more; and also I will remove from the land the prophets and the unclean spirit.
Zech. 13:7 ¶ "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate," says the LORD of hosts.
Strike the shepherd, that the sheep may be scattered;
I will turn my hand against the little ones.
Zech. 14:16 ¶ Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the festival of booths.
Zech. 14:17 If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain upon them.
Zech. 14:21 and every cooking pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be sacred to the LORD of hosts, so that all who sacrifice may come and use them to boil the flesh of the sacrifice. And there shall no longer be traders in the house of the LORD of hosts on that day.
Mal. 1:4 If Edom says, "We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins," the LORD of hosts says: They may build, but I will tear down, until they are called the wicked country, the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.
Mal. 1:6 ¶ A son honors his father, and servants their master. If then I am a father, where is the honor due me? And if I am a master, where is the respect due me? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. You say, "How have we despised your name?"
Mal. 1:8 When you offer blind animals in sacrifice, is that not wrong? And when you offer those that are lame or sick, is that not wrong? Try presenting that to your governor; will he be pleased with you or show you favor? says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 1:9 And now implore the favor of God, that he may be gracious to us. The fault is yours. Will he show favor to any of you? says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 1:10 Oh, that someone among you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not kindle fire on my altar in vain! I have no pleasure in you, says the LORD of hosts, and I will not accept an offering from your hands.
Mal. 1:11 For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 1:13 "What a weariness this is," you say, and you sniff at me, says the LORD of hosts. You bring what has been taken by violence or is lame or sick, and this you bring as your offering! Shall I accept that from your hand? says the LORD.
Mal. 1:14 Cursed be the cheat who has a male in the flock and vows to give it, and yet sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished; for I am a great King, says the LORD of hosts, and my name is reverenced among the nations.
Mal. 2:2 If you will not listen, if you will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, says the LORD of hosts, then I will send the curse on you and I will curse your blessings; indeed I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
Mal. 2:4 ¶ Know, then, that I have sent this command to you, that my covenant with Levi may hold, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 2:7 For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 2:8 But you have turned aside from the way; you have caused many to stumble by your instruction; you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the LORD of hosts,
Mal. 2:12 May the LORD cut off from the tents of Jacob anyone who does this—any to witness or answer, or to bring an offering to the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 2:16 For I hate divorce, says the LORD, the God of Israel, and covering one’s garment with violence, says the LORD of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless.
Mal. 3:1 ¶ See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight—indeed, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 3:5 ¶ Then I will draw near to you for judgment; I will be swift to bear witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired workers in their wages, the widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 3:7 Ever since the days of your ancestors you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts. But you say, "How shall we return?"
Mal. 3:10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in my house, and thus put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts; see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you an overflowing blessing.
Mal. 3:11 I will rebuke the locust for you, so that it will not destroy the produce of your soil; and your vine in the field shall not be barren, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 3:12 Then all nations will count you happy, for you will be a land of delight, says the LORD of hosts.
Mal. 3:14 You have said, "It is vain to serve God. What do we profit by keeping his command or by going about as mourners before the LORD of hosts?
Mal. 3:17 They shall be mine, says the LORD of hosts, my special possession on the day when I act, and I will spare them as parents spare their children who serve them.
Mal. 4:1 ¶ See, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal. 4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.
Rom. 9:29 And as Isaiah predicted,
"If the Lord of hosts had not left survivors to us,
we would have fared like Sodom
and been made like Gomorrah."
James 5:4 Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts.
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/4/2002 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | NOW, in the light of all this, is it not a wee bit strange that we HEAR SO LITTLE ABOUT "THE GODS" IN CONTEMPORARY THEOLOGY, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF EVIL??? hmmmm?
Blessings
Doc
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/4/2002 7:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Oh yeah!!!
Bring it on Doc, now yer talkin'! Yer talkin' and then some! PoW may have topped you in posts but you have definitely demolished his cut and paste record!
It's about time the angels got some press!
I have some ideas about them Don. I think they are much more instrumental in working with God in our world than is acknowledged and even have a hand in mediating God's will into the world.
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/5/2002 3:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmmm... Looking at verses like:
1Kings 12:28 So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. He said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."
One would maybe think that these "gods" are nothing more than objects of affection, not real, live entities.
On the other hand, why would God make a big deal about being the Lord of Hosts if the hosts didn't really exist.
While it is made plainly clear that we should worship God alone, should I be asking god number 105 to run to the 7/11 for some ice cream?
The Doc's scripture list is impressive, something is going on. But what?
peace and love, don
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Jewgrass
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2001
Total Posts : 113
| Posted 2/5/2002 4:20 AM (GMT -6) | | Strange... only four New Testament verses... hmmmm.
--Jewgrass
"Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn't really know very much." --1 Corinthians 8:2 (New Living Translation)
Edited by - jewgrass on 02/05/2002 09:21:46 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Springs
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/5/2002 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | I think you should ask God for what you want at the 7/11 but in response God may send god 105 to take care of your request.
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 2/5/2002 4:57 AM (GMT -6) | | So it's a chain command type of thing. I can command the bad gods ( get thee behind me satan ) but the good gods are only God's to command ( hence, Lord of Hosts ).
So all the things that are available to know about these "other" good gods is interesting , but of little practical value.
Are angels and gods different in some way other than their color?
peace and love, don
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Springs
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Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/5/2002 5:23 AM (GMT -6) | | Good ideas Don.
I think we have authority from God over the bad god's due to the victory of Christ on the cross. As to the good gods, maybe in their role as messengers between us and God there are some messages that they recognize as falling under their jurisdiction and other's that are submitted to God.
I see Modes is finally back. He's over on the Holy Spirit thread qualifying God's omnipresense as we speak. Hey Modes! Can you help us break down over here too?
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
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Mephi2K
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 713
| Posted 2/5/2002 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Some things, Doc. I think that my man Don has a good point. He said:
quote:
1Kings 12:28 So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. He said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."
One would maybe think that these "gods" are nothing more than objects of affection, not real, live entities.
Right on, big daddy Don! Doc, you quote this passage:
1Sam. 5:7
And when the inhabitants of Ashdod saw how things were, they said, "The ark of the God of Israel must not remain with us; for his hand is heavy on us and on our god Dagon."
But the question becomes, HOW did they come to the idea that the God of Israel's hand was against Dagon? The scriptures immediately before tell the story...
1 Sam 5:1-5
After the Philistines had captured the ark of God, they took it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. Then they carried the ark into Dagon's temple and set it beside Dagon. When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! They took Dagon and put him back in his place. But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the LORD! His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained. That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon's temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.
Now, look at verse 6...
The LORD's hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors.
Some things to note. It's seems very clear that in the mind of the author, the "god" that was so lauded by the people of Ashdod was to be DIRECTLY IDENTIFIED with the "idol" in the temple. It's interesting that it is never called the idol OF Dagon. It is continually referenced to AS Dagon! Dagon IS the lifeless statue that the people had made for themselves. Sounds like a very familiar theme...
Isaiah 44:8-20
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.
Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit him nothing? He and his kind will be put to shame; craftsmen are nothing but men. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and infamy.
The blacksmith takes a tool and works with it in the coals; he shapes an idol with hammers, he forges it with the might of his arm. He gets hungry and loses his strength; he drinks no water and grows faint. The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
It is man's fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"
and here in David's Psalm of Thanksgiving
1 Chronicles 16:23-26
Sing to the LORD, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.
Declare his glory among the nations, his marvelous deeds among all peoples. For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the LORD made the heavens.
Going back to the Dagon passage. Looking at verse 7, it's interesting that the statement is made that God's hand is heavy on the people AND on Dagon? Wouldn't God's hand oppressing the people be seen as EQUIVALENT to "judging the gods" as was the case in the Exodus account? Obviously not here. It seems clear that the heavy hand on Dagon was God knocking Dagon (the statue) down and breaking him! It's kinda like to idea of a sacred tree or totem. Destroying said tree or totem SHOWS the object to be without power...and truly a worthless thing. The reason this is so powerful is because it is PRESUMED by the people that the sacred object has power IN and OF itself. I think it was the same way here. The "god" Dagon was nothing more than a statue. And this is one passage looked at more in depth. I think that the overall evidence will lie in Don's favor on this one. The "gods" are NOT gods. They are nothing.
NEXT,
With regard to the Lord of Hosts idea...
Is it possible that this term is NOT specified in mind to support the existence of other "gods", but to affirm the sovereignty of God over ALL things. Angels, celestial bodies in the sky, HUMAN armies, ALL THAT. There is an explanation in the BDB Lexicon that leads in this direction. Given the instances of Scriptures that I have noted above that seem to specifically state that other "gods" are nothing more than useless idols...and the use of the term (saba hashimyim) in 2 Kings (translated "hosts of heaven" in KJV but "starry hosts" in the NIV)...and other considerations, I would say that the Lord of Hosts idea is to assert God's universal sovereignty over all things RATHER THAN affirming the existence of other "gods."
Now are you talking about DEMONS being considered "gods" here? Are you talking about DEMONIC POWER being exercised behind the idol worship? Like Satan being called the "god of this world"? I could see that as a consideration...but then again what about what Paul says:
1 Corinthians 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Paul seems to mockingly even GRANT the possibility of other non-human beings who may be objects of worship. (Obviously, Paul doesn't believe that there are other gods) And he makes it clear that these "gods" are as unto NOTHING as compared to the one TRUE God.
I understand the "god of this world" stuff, Doc...but look at how Paul talks about "gods" elsewhere. Could it be possible that Paul is not truly CONSIDERING Satan a "god' in a true sense, but it just considering Satan the arch-nemesis that spearheads this foul world? The "god of this world" idea need not be seen as a testament to the RAMPANT POWER of Satan, but more of him being a FIGUREHEAD of the fallen world. I personally think this idea works better. 
Just some thoughts? What do YOU think?
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Empiress
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| Posted 2/5/2002 7:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Does anyone else think this is just a matter of semantics?
Clearly there are thousands upon thousands of "deities" or "gods" worshiped by people of different cultures. From animistic tribes in Asia, to western neo-paganism, to ancient Greece, there are "gods" and "goddesses" of all types! I recently came across a "dictionary of deities" that listed over 100,000 "gods" with descriptions of their characteristics and origin. People claim and experience all kinds of super-natural power and activity occuring through such deities. Clearly they are not merely "objects of affection" with no real existence. They're spirits! I tend to imagine they're demons for the most part, but who knows...angels too. And they are spirits that clearly have some geographical power and authority....they tend to be associated with particular areas in the world. They also gain power and authority over those who claim them as patrons and objects of worship, protection, etc.
Oh...Paul does offer an explanation and conclusion to his discussion on idol meat, but it doesn't come until chapter 10. Here he says: "What do I imply then? That food sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons" (1 Cor. 10:19-20).
These pagan gods are demons according to Paul...with real substance. They're simply not "GOD."
The point is, they are "gods" because they have become objects of worship by humans and have gained authority in some way...this is how humans have referred to them since ancient times. I don't really see what the "argument" is about.
~E
Edited by - Empiress on 02/05/2002 12:26:27 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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| Posted 2/5/2002 7:49 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo Doc,
Did I misread God at War ?
Did you propose three classes ( maybe more ) of heavenly beings, angels, demons and gods (other than God) ? These gods are not merely demons that are gods by virtue of being worshipped by humans.
Empiress,
I'm trying to figure how the warfare worldview should be fit into my thoughts, or if it should . Not very high tech, but this is just my way of wrestling with the issues. If I am battling relational entities , and not just good or bad ideas, the effects on my prayer life are far reaching. No need for yelling and screaming for ideas to get out of the room.
peace and love, don
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Empiress
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| Posted 2/5/2002 8:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Don said:
quote:
No need for yelling and screaming for ideas to get out of the room.
Sorry Don, but I think you misread me. I'm not one to "yell and scream" for ideas to "get out of the room." I was responding to your question and the issue being raised and asking if it isn't an issue of semantics more than a "true" argument. I think you mistunderstood me! Wow...I didn't think my communication was that poor!
I hope the discussion keeps up! I don't actually know Doc's theory on the whole thing...I was giving my perspective. If Doc is saying that there are "gods" that are worshipped by people other than demons that's news to me! Very very very INTERESTING stuff! I feel quite the opposite of wanting this discussion to end!
Sometimes it's amazing how poorly this form of discussion communicates our feelings.
Peace,
~E
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Mephi2K
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| Posted 2/5/2002 8:19 AM (GMT -6) | | E, you said:
quote:
The point is, they are "gods" because they have become objects of worship by humans and have gained authority in some way...this is how humans have referred to them since ancient times. I don't really see what the "argument" is about.
I can see how you would say that this is merely semantics. That's why I asked if we were talking about DEMONS when they were mentioning "gods" here. That kinda makes sense. And I would say that you are right SOMEWHAT about "gods" merely being things OTHER THAN God that become worshipped. However, there's something to be considered. We seem to have biblical testimony that God claims that there ARE no other "gods" There may be celestial beings but NO other "gods" Perhaps God just means that there are no other objects in existence that are worthy of worship but Him. But it seems to be more powerful than that. It seems to me in the Old Testament that the authors see the "gods" as nothing more than creatures of fancy and idolatrous imagination...while in the New Testament, these "idols" or "so-called" gods can be used for demonic intention. This is the crux of the issue to me: in any regard, a significant amount of the biblical witness seems to indicate to me that "gods" are pretty much POWERLESS in the face of God's sovereignty. In the Old Testament, they seem to be relegated mostly to "idols" that can't do anything (which God keeps bringing up)...while in the New Testament, Paul seems to say that the "so-called" gods are nothing to God.
If I'm not mistaken, I think that Doc wants to use the idea of "other gods" to bolster the idea of complexity in creation. There are other many sources of AUTONOMOUS, POWERFUL ACTION that contribute to the mess that God has to "fight" in order to get his mission of redemption done. God has to honor and respect the freedom of these MYRIAD "gods" while at the same time working towards his overall goals. Given what I see God repeatedly saying about these "gods" EVEN IF THEY EXISTED (as Paul states), they would not seem to be nearly the threat that Doc thinks they are to God's action in the world.
See my issue now, E?
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might-be-don
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| Posted 2/5/2002 8:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Empiress,
Any perceived inability for you to communicate is clearly dwarfed by my lack communication skills. :)
Just to make it clear... I don't think you would be inclined to yell at ideas, as I think you regard demons as literal beings. The demons could be yelled out to leave a literal room. On the other hand, if demons are nothing more than the personification of ideas, no need to yell and scream. Quiet reasoning would be able to remove the bad ideas.
I was not commenting on your suggestion that the argument was an issue of semantics, but saying that in my prayer life that "commanding" demons to leave the room may not be necessary, as many who follow a warfare view would do.
Anyway... we're ok .
peace and love, don
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Empiress
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| Posted 2/5/2002 9:16 AM (GMT -6) | | 
Don,
This is too funny...oh the heights of miscommunication!
Just for fun...and although I'm highly embarrassed now, I want to explain what I thought you meant!
Here's how I read your post:quote:
I'm trying to figure how the warfare worldview should be fit into my thoughts, or if it should. Not very high tech, but this is just my way of wrestling with the issues.....No need for yelling and screaming for ideas to get out of the room.
I thought you thought I was making a fuss and trying to shut down your question! I thought the words: "No need for yelling and screaming for ideas to get out of the room" was aimed at me...that you thought I was yelling at YOU to shut down these "ideas," ie this discussion!
*lol*
Even after I made my response, you didn't know what I was talking about!
Okay...I hope this is a good lesson for everyone of how ridiculous miscommunication can be. And this one was DEFINITELY my fault! Oy. *smacks forehead*
Peace and giggles,
~E
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Empiress
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| Posted 2/5/2002 9:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Mephi said:
quote:
If I'm not mistaken, I think that Doc wants to use the idea of "other gods" to bolster the idea of complexity in creation. There are other many sources of AUTONOMOUS, POWERFUL ACTION that contribute to the mess that God has to "fight" in order to get his mission of redemption done. God has to honor and respect the freedom of these MYRIAD "gods" while at the same time working towards his overall goals. Given what I see God repeatedly saying about these "gods" EVEN IF THEY EXISTED (as Paul states), they would not seem to be nearly the threat that Doc thinks they are to God's action in the world.
See my issue now, E?
Oh yes I do! This is fascinating! I think I agree with Doc as far as I can tell. I probably need to read his book before I can comment any further on this thread though!
Thanks for the explanation,
~E
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 2/6/2002 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Jewgrass: Strange... only four New Testament verses... hmmmm.
Doc: By the time we get to the New Testament, they’re usually referred to as "angels."
Don: So all the things that are available to know about these "other" good gods is interesting , but of little practical value.
Doc: I think that’s true. But there is a value knowing about them, especially when it comes to understanding evil.
Meph: It's seems very clear that in the mind of the author, the "god" that was so lauded by the people of Ashdod was to be DIRECTLY IDENTIFIED with the "idol" in the temple.
Doc: Its true that many times biblical authors identify the "god" with the idol, as did the pagans. Its true that often they belittle these actionless idols as a way of belittling the gods. And its even true that Isaiah and Jeremiah ridicule the "gods" to the point of saying that, compared to Yahweh, they are not "gods" at all. But surely you don’t want to argue that the Old Testament denies the existence of "the gods" altogether? There reality is presupposed throughout. There ARE "many lords" and "many gods" (I Cor.).
Meph: I would say that the Lord of Hosts idea is to assert God's universal sovereignty over all things RATHER THAN affirming the existence of other "gods."
Doc: Then why say "hosts" rather than "everything"? Yes, all ancient people considered the stars and moon, and sometimes the wind etc… as heavenly being. Even the Bible at times accepts this (e.g. Judges 5: "the stars fought…"). And yes, they want to emphasize that Yahweh is over – and even "commands" – these beings. But they did see them as BEINGS.
Meph: The "god of this world" idea need not be seen as a testament to the RAMPANT POWER of Satan, but more of him being a FIGUREHEAD of the fallen world.
Doc: I Jn 5:19. More than figurehead!!! And look at the way Jesus talks about him! His kingdom STANDS.
Meph: EVEN IF THEY EXISTED (as Paul states), they would not seem to be nearly the threat that Doc thinks they are to God's action in the world.
Doc: Given what Jesus had to do to rid this world of its "god", I think it safe to conclude that they ARE significant in understanding the evil in this world. Given the way Jesus, Paul and others speak about him being active in hindering ministry, tempting people, "devouring" people, choking seeds, deceiving people, etc... I think it safe to conclude they are a significant variable in understanding the screwed up nature of this world.
I think Origen had it right.
No one…who has not heard what is related of him who is called "devil," and his "angels," and what he was before he became a devil, and how he became such, and what was the cause of the simultaneous apostasy of those who are termed his angels, will be able to ascertain the origin of evils.
— Origen, First Principles
In his grip
Greg
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Springs
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| Posted 2/6/2002 7:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Great thread. And a fitting place for Tolkien part II.
But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened, and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself.To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.
Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straight-way discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew depsondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Iluvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged. -J.R.R. Tolkien The Silmarillion
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
Edited by - Springs on 02/08/2002 09:56:51 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 2/7/2002 6:42 PM (GMT -6) | | Great quote Springs.
I hated the "Fellowship of the Rings" movie, but you're quote makes me want to get the book.
-- after the 16 I already have on my reading lists.--
Doc
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Springs
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| Posted 2/8/2002 5:08 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Doc,
I do hope that you can read the trilogy before next Christmas when the second 'rings' movie comes out, it will make all the difference. The piece of Tolkien's writing that I typed in above is actually from the Silmarillion a book that relates events that happen way before the The Lord of the Rings. (I edited and added the title in just now)It was published four years after Tolkien died. It contains the legends from the First Age of the World. The Lord of the Rings books are the tales from the Third Age. (for what it's worth)
Springs
"God has instituted prayer so as to confer upon his creatures the dignity of being causes." — Blaise Pascal
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Iconoclast
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| Posted 2/10/2002 8:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Mephi: The "gods" are NOT gods. They are nothing.
Iconoclast:
Could they really be abstractions of sets of individuals? I am thinking of Doc’s Perspectival/Ordinal metaphysics and his notion of Disposition. Individuals would be the concrete and the abstraction would be the collective behavior of some aspect or set of related aspects of the individuals. The notions of perspectival/ordinal and disposition would suggest that this abstraction is itself a concrete real entity that has power – that “disposes” the related individuals toward a set of behavior. More simply put it seems that this is the foundation behind the idea of the power of “Corporate Culture”. Culture arises from the set of individuals AND disposes the individuals toward a set of behavior. They are inextricably bound together. If this is true then certainly in one sense they are nothing but in another sense they are real. They are as real as we make them to be.
might-be-don: No need for yelling and screaming for ideas to get out of the room.
Iconoclast:
Good point. But what if the ideas that we hold that lead to this corporate culture – these gods – are held unconsciously? What if they are deep presuppositions? What if we say that we don’t believe them but actually behave as though we do?
If this were true then I think that we would have to say that reason has failed us. Our reason thinks we already believe the right ideas. Our reason has become unaware that we are really the cause. Our reason then believes that the cause of evil comes not from ourselves but from the other. The other person yes – but often we attribute it to the abstractions – the corporation, the church, “those” people, and ultimately – Satan. And isn’t this really the source of evil – that we attribute the evil that comes from us to others? Isn’t this what Satan means? The Accuser.
Doc: Then why say "hosts" rather than "everything"? Yes, all ancient people considered the stars and moon, and sometimes the wind etc… as heavenly being. Even the Bible at times accepts this (e.g. Judges 5: "the stars fought…"). And yes, they want to emphasize that Yahweh is over – and even "commands" – these beings. But they did see them as BEINGS.
Iconoclast:
Because “hosts” implies volitional creatures. But wouldn’t volitional individuals give rise to volitional abstractions? Perspectival thinking here. Aren’t volitional individuals really abstractions made up of volitional conscious and sub-conscious agents? Doesn’t the word “demon” mean “unseen agent”. Couldn’t this term really refer both to volitional sub-conscious agents as well as volitional abstractions of individuals? Also, it is my understanding that the greek word for “demon” did NOT carry negative connotations – it was originally neutral in that regard. So, why wouldn’t it work to understand “demons” as coming from humans and “angels” (“messengers”) as “perspectival” agents coming from God?
If we took this supposition at face value and worked it through wouldn’t it lead to the following conclusions:
One) We don’t see demons now like we used to because we now understand them better. They are less “unseen” agents and more “seen”. We now understand schizophrenia as an imabalance of chemicals and realize that the “unseen agents” in the schizophrenics head are put there by him. We don’t understand ALL unseen agents in our world but have come to take on an assumption that we CAN understand all unseen agents as some “normal” process. Thus – as a collective group we no longer believe in literal “demons” and therefore we do not create them as such (certainly our unconscious processes continue to create the same “demons” but in a different manifestation).
Two) The Warfare Worldview is a useful model up to a point. It is useful up to the point that we start attributing the evil that we create to some other force. It is useful up to the point that we start thinking that WE are not the problem – but rather it is the other guy who is clearly full of Satan and in need of being told so by me. Maybe a better way of clarifying this is to say that it is OK to believe that WE are influenced to do evil by all manner of forces but that the second we start thinking that the power to “fight” evil comes from actions to stop my brother from sinning rather than from actions to stop my own sinning then we are in big trouble. In fact, we have just become the very enemy we are decrying – we are now the Accuser.
Three) The War is really a war between us and God. Satan is the ultimate abstraction of our rebellion against God.
If this is true then doesn’t it follow that there are ONLY two basic actions that are effective in “fighting” this war:
One) Decide for myself to be on God’s side. Choose to stop rebelling by working on transforming my conscious and sub-conscious agents to be for God rather than against God.
Two) Influence others that God loves us and is not the enemy. Spread the Good News.
What I am focused on here is excluding direct action to stamp out the evil we see so clearly in our brother. I am asserting that this direct action is action against our brother. It is accusation and condemnation which is exactly the evil within ourselves that God is at war with.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"being weird is rarely a total waste of time" - Greg Boyd
Edited by - Iconoclast on 02/11/2002 08:03:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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might-be-don
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| Posted 2/11/2002 3:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconclast,
I have been a very long time in a church culture that views demons as personal "beings". My fear is that if we allow these demons ( Satan at the top of the list ) to exist as abstractions ( although very 'real' ones ), that doesn't leave us very far from God as abstraction. I'm pretty sure I don't want to say that, but what would prevent that leap?
peace and love, don
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 2/11/2002 8:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Iconoclast: the notions of perspectival/ordinal and disposition would suggest that this abstraction is itself a concrete real entity that has power – that "disposes" the related individuals toward a set of behavior. More simply put it seems that this is the foundation behind the idea of the power of "Corporate Culture".
Doc: I grant that there is a reality to corporate culture. Indeed, all people groups form wholes. But I don’t see that recognizing this in any way entails that gods possess wills over and against us just as we possess wills over and against God and each other. There is no a priori way to decide what does and does not exist (except for God, who exists necessarily). Whether superhuman agents exist or not is, in one sense, an empirical question, not a logical one.
Icon: wouldn’t volitional individuals give rise to volitional abstractions? Perspectival thinking here. Aren’t volitional individuals really abstractions made up of volitional conscious and sub-conscious agents?
Doc: I’m afraid I’m not following you’re thinking here. Are you saying that we human individuals are "volitional abstractions"? If you are, I can understand that (relative to other perspectives, e.g. our neurons). But in this case calling gods "volitional abstractions" doesn’t entail that they are any less real as individuals THAN WE ARE.
Icon: The Warfare Worldview is a useful model up to a point. It is useful up to the point that we start attributing the evil that we create to some other force.etc.
Doc: I agree with you Icon. None of this "devil made me do it" stuff, or "devil made YOU do it." But I would add, the warfare worldview is useful for a) theodicy purposes (something your Winkian ‘abstraction" perspective doesn’t allow b) for spiritual warfare purposes. Seeing gods and demons as real motives praying against them… and that helps get rid of them. Exorcism, my man, exorcism. Its real, its universal, and its effecacious.
Blessings
Greg
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