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Goriller
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 1/30/2002 8:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | I read both God at War and Satan and the Problem of Evil. Got a couple of questions:
There is obviously much less demonic possession today than there was when Jesus walked the earth. Why? And how does this fact alter our warfare worldview?
Secondly, God at War was, to a large part, based on Daniel 10 where it took 21 days for an angel to fight through the demonic realm to get to Daniel in order to answer his prayer. Okay, but today we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. No 21 day delays anymore. So how does this affect our warfare worldview also?
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/1/2002 2:01 AM (GMT -6) | | [Goriller: There is obviously much less demonic possession today than there was when Jesus walked the earth. Why? And how does this fact alter our warfare worldview?
Doc: Welcome aboard. I’m not convinced there is less demonization than previously. But there is less MANIFESTATION IN THE WESTERN WORLD than before, and this may be due to a different demonic strategy in our culture. Then again, maybe if any of us had the intense annointing Jesus had we’d be flushing out more demons.
Goriller: Secondly, God at War was, to a large part, based on Daniel 10 where it took 21 days for an angel to fight through the demonic realm to get to Daniel in order to answer his prayer. Okay, but today we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. No 21 day delays anymore. So how does this affect our warfare worldview also?
Doc: I don’t see the connection between us having the Holy Spirit and the conclusion that there can be no more 21 day delays. God still uses spiritual and physical mediaries, they still have wills of their own, and they can still use them to work with or against the Almighty.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 2/1/2002 7:24 PM (GMT -6) | | Greetings Doc. I've been a member here for quite a while, but this is my first post (long-time listener, first-time caller). I'm currently reading God At War and Satan and the Problem of Evil and John Sanders's The God Who Risks.
Doc writes: quote:
I’m not convinced there is less demonization than previously. But there is less MANIFESTATION IN THE WESTERN WORLD than before, and this may be due to a different demonic strategy in our culture.
I'm inclined to agree with your conjecture. But I would go farther to say that the reason for the change in demonic strategy is God's current restrictions upon the demonic sphere of influence.
Doc writes: quote:
Then again, maybe if any of us had the intense annointing Jesus had we’d be flushing out more demons.
I don't agree with this because I see scriptural indications that there are limits on demonic influence in place today that were not in place during Jesus's time on earth. More specifically, the scriptures teach that the nation of Israel was governed by an angelic ministry, which is consonant with the role the angels played in God's answers to prayer for Israel. The role of angels was pervasive in the Jewish theocracy, from their worship to their warfare, and the angels were inextricably tied to God's dealings with them and their dealings with God.
With the advent of the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, a new biblical economy was inaugurated, what Paul called "The Mystery," due to the fact that it was held in silence from the beginning of the world (Col 1:25-27). This new dispensation describes a new group of God's elect, characterized by a distinctly and uniquely non-ceremonial, non-ritualistic, non-earthly nature and practice, namely, the Body of Christ (Gal 4:8-11 Col 2:8-23). By contrast, whereas Israel's Hope and future is tied to the promised land inheritance given to Abraham and Moses and the Twelve tribes (Mt 19:28), the Body of Christ has a heavenly Hope, that is a future place in the heavens, jointly seated with Christ on the Father's throne (Eph 1:20 2:6). Being granted that place in the created order, the Body of Christ is also administratively above the angels (Eph 2:17-23), which means that the angels do not have interactive role in humanity that they did during Israel's dispensation. Paul says that the Body of Christ will govern angels and that the angels will learn of God's grace and wisdom via the Body of Christ (1Co 6:1-3 Eph 3:10, see also principle of Heb 7:7). This is further emphasized by the fact that there is One Mediator and One Spirit for the Body of Christ, namely, Christ and the Holy Spirit, respectively, which Paul teaches in Eph 4:4 (cf. for Israel there were the many spirits, i.e. angels) and 1Ti 2:5 (cf. for Israel there were the many mediators, i.e. angels).
My point is that the demons, albeit as active as they can be, are restricted in their activity during this dispensation because of these believers called the Body of Christ who have an especially direct relationship with the Third Person of the Trinity that prior dispensations did not have. That is to say that the demons dare not risk a direct confrontation with the Holy Spirit and must use less direct and more subtle strategies to attack believers today.
Doc writes: quote:
God still uses spiritual and physical mediaries, they still have wills of their own, and they can still use them to work with or against the Almighty.
Question: Do you believe the holy/elect angels can work against the Almighty?
Thanks and salubrious wishes,
James Hilston
James Hilston"Choose the red pill." | | Back to Top | | |
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n/a
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 218
| Posted 2/1/2002 11:21 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/4/2002 6:32 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Hilston, nice to have you on board.
You a follower of my brother Bob (Hill)? The only other time I've seen a theology that puts this sort of emphasis on Paul's theology as constituting a "new dispensation" is with several other brothers and/or sisters on the site who are influenced by his thinking. That's neither here nor there, of course. Its an interesting thesis.
In any event, the explanation for WHY we do'n't see more manifestations in our culture today than we do is not nearly as important as what we do about the demonic influence we DO see. And on this point I think we largely agree.
Thanks for speaking up.
Blessings
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 2/5/2002 9:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Thanks for your reply. I am familiar with some of Bob Hill's views, enough to know that I have major problems with most of his theology. We may have dispensational similarities, but his overall framework is a house of cards from what I can tell.
Greg writes: quote:
The only other time I've seen a theology that puts this sort of emphasis on Paul's theology as constituting a "new dispensation" ... That's neither here nor there, of course. Its an interesting thesis.
Do you disagree with the premise of dispensational distinctions? If so, what is your position? Do you view the Body of Christ as new covenant Israel? The reason I ask is that, if the Mid-Acts view of the angelic hierarchy is correct, your Trinitarian Warfare Theodicy theory (from what I've read thus far) collapses under its own weight.
You wondered about the connection regarding Goriller's question above: quote:
... God at War was, to a large part, based on Daniel 10 where it took 21 days for an angel to fight through the demonic realm to get to Daniel in order to answer his prayer. Okay, but today we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. No 21 day delays anymore. So how does this affect our warfare worldview also?
Greg replied:quote:
"I don’t see the connection between us having the Holy Spirit and the conclusion that there can be no more 21 day delays."
The connection is that there are no "mediaries" today as it was with Israel. There is one mediator between God and man (1Ti 2:5), and the Holy Spirit prays in our behalf, even when we do not know how we ought to pray (Ro 8:26). In light of this and the references in my previous post above, how do you support your TWT thesis regarding angelic warfare in this dispensation?
Greg writes:quote:
God still uses spiritual and physical mediaries, ...
Can you show this biblically?
Greg writes:quote:
"... they still have wills of their own, and they can still use them to work with or against the Almighty."
Can you biblically demonstrate this?
I'm still curious to know your answer (or perhaps you can refer me to your answer in the aforementioned titles?) to my previous question, "Do you believe the holy/elect angels can work against the Almighty?"
Blessings on your head,
James Hilston
http://www.icubed.com/~hilston
Hilston1@aol.com | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/6/2002 5:49 PM (GMT -6) | | Unless given reasons to think otherwise, I assume that things are today as they were in biblical times. So my question is, why think things have changed? More specifically:
What is "the mid-Acts view" of the "angelic heirarchy"?
Can you tell me what leads you to the conclusion that "gods" no longer have the influence in the world that they did before mid-acts? Do you think that Satan STILL "has control of the entire world?" (I Jn 5:19)
Thanks
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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MrIndifference
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 144
| Posted 2/8/2002 5:07 AM (GMT -6) | | I would have to say that there are some major differences between posessions in biblical Israel and those of today. They are mostly based on our mindset. Pretty well the whole population in biblical times believed that there were gods, angels, demons, etc. They believed that plagues, sickness, disease, famines, ceasures, and the likes were directly caused by direct demonic actions. The problem is that we live in a society that has, for the most part, explained away God, angels, demons, Satan, posessions, and the likes. I tend to hold to incarnation theology, where God chose to work through time, place, events, and His creation to achieve what He wants to get done. Not only does He chose to work this way, but has also put cosmic laws into place that force all spiritual activity to adhere to these laws. We live in what is called the scientific age. We have advanced far enough to start seeing how time, matter, and the universe work. With our increasing knowledge of how things work on the physical plane, humanity as a whole is able to explain most supernatural acts and entities away. Just asuming that spiritual beings have been set over the various aspects of how creation is run, we can explain away why storms happen, the causes behind sickness and disease, mental illness has simply become an imbalance of neural-chemicals. We simply look at the physical events that are happening in the world around us and miss the spiritual forces behind those events. Have we become blind, or are the skeptics correct in assuming that we are simply more advanced now.
MrI. :|
________________________________________
The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.
Karl Marx Theses on Feuerbach
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 2/8/2002 6:02 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Thanks for your response. My rejoinder and questions are inline below:
Greg writes:quote:
Unless given reasons to think otherwise, I assume that things are today as they were in biblical times.
It depends on what biblical times we're talking about: The biblical time of Jesus's earthly ministry through His Apostles to elect Israel? Or the biblical time of Jesus's heavenly ministry through Paul and his apostles? The teachings differ, particularly regarding the role of ceremony and ritual, and this ramifies dramatically upon the functioning role of the angelic hierarchy. Consider that Peter, Jude and others warned against speaking ill of the angelic host, whether elect or rebel:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
Jude 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Peter and Jude spoke in accordance with the command to Israel in Exodus:
Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Yet Paul freely pronounced an anathema upon any angel who would impose Jewish/circumcision law upon the Body of Christ:
Gal 1: 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
This is one of many inescapable discontinuities, and it is attributed to the Mystery dispensation.
Greg writes:quote:
So my question is, why think things have changed?
A better question is, how can we think things have NOT changed? Why do many theological systems work so hard to explain away the obvious changes, insisting upon a false continuity between Jesus's ministry to Israel (the gospels, Acts, general epistles) and Jesus's ministry to the Body of Christ through Paul's ministry and writings? Paul stated that his goal was to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God (cf Col 1:26,27), who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: (Eph 3:9-11). God's stated purpose is to teach the angelic host (principalities and powers) of God's many-sided wisdom through the Body of Christ, which was in God's hidden plan (i.e "held-in-silence", cf. Ro 16:25,26) from Creation. This is unprecedented. Prior to the Body of Christ, men were subject to the teaching and ministry of the angels (From what I've read of your books, it appears you are acquainted with this premise. Please let me know if I need to develop it more fully.).
Greg writes:quote:
What is "the mid-Acts view" of the "angelic heirarchy"?
Briefly, it is a recognition of administrative roles within the created order (Heb 7:7). The role of the elect Gentile nations is to fill the earth and subdue it. The role of elect Israel is righteously bless and govern the elect Gentile nations. Elect Israel is righteously governed and blessed by the angelic hierarchy, from whom they receive revelation and guidance and protection. This all that was known of the created order prior to Paul's conversion, and the promises to Israel were viewed as yet future, and possibly imminent. Hence Peter's question in Acts 1:6 "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" The conversion of Saul of Tarsus is the answer to that question ("no"). We learn through Paul's writings that this new economy, the Mystery Elect, the Body of Christ, will righteously bless and govern the elect angels (1Co 6:1-3). For more detailed treatment with references, please see the following study: http://www.icubed.com/~hilston/TGF/topical/sevenones.htm
Greg writes: quote:
Can you tell me what leads you to the conclusion that "gods" no longer have the influence in the world that they did before mid-acts?
It appears you misunderstood me. Since Adam left his first estate by rebelling against his Creator, this world belongs to Satan and his minions. The gods certainly have influence in the world, perhaps more than ever given the sheer numbers of people and venues by which to exert their influence. My claim is that the demonic realm may have limits in the extent to which they can influence members of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ is not under the administrative authority of angels (whose ministry is now in abeyance as long as Israel no longer exists as an entity before God). So, unlike Israel, whose worship and communion with God depended upon the mediatory roles of angels, we are not concerned with "testing the spirits" (1Jn 1:4) because we have but one Mediator and the One Spirit (Eph 4:4). We can rightly conclude that ANY spirit that encounter in this dispensation is demonic.
Greg previously wrote:quote:
["Spiritual mediaries"] still have wills of their own, and they can still use them to work with or against the Almighty.
Do you believe the holy/elect angels can work against the Almighty?
Salubrious wishes,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
http://www.icubed.com/~hilston
Edited by - Hilston on 02/08/2002 11:09:39 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
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Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 2/20/2002 9:43 PM (GMT -6) | | Dear Greg,
I concur with most of what Hilston has written, but I do believe that satan had his angels/demons cause much of the evil (Zosia) in the world.
I have been reading your Satan and the Problem of Evil very thoroughly. Thank you for continuing your work in this area.
Although I do not like the great emphasis on philosophy rather than having a biblical basis, I appreciate the work you have done and the way you are answering the philosophical questions that are out there.
I also thought your argument in the 4 views of foreknowledge was overwhelmingly superior to the other presentations.
God bless you,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 02/21/2002 02:45:10 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 2/21/2002 6:11 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Greg,
My wife's Mom died last night, so I will not be on line for about a week.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 2/21/2002 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | 
You're family is in my prayers and I will tell my friends about it.
In the Beloved,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 2/21/2002 4:35 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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GregBoyd
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/23/2002 5:10 PM (GMT -6) | | So sorry to hear about your mother Bob. My condolences.
Thanks too for the kudos on the "Four Views" essay.
Regarding the Philosophical emphasis of Satan and the Problem of Evil, I too think it most important to root ones views in the biblical narrative. This is what I tried to do in God at War. The philosophy in Satan and the Problem is my attempt to make philosophical sense of the biblical view (established in God at War).
Blessings. And thanks Hilton for the clarifications.
Greg
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 103
| Posted 2/23/2002 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Question: Do you believe the holy/elect angels can work against the Almighty?
Thanks,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
http://www.icubed.com/~hilston | | Back to Top | | |
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Bob Hill
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2001
Total Posts : 98
| Posted 2/28/2002 8:45 PM (GMT -6) | | Greg,
I'm elated! Satan and the Problem of Evil is superb. I have read the first six chapters thoroughly.
We'll be using your book as a text this semester in our Theology 405 course. Last semester we used Ware's much lesser glory.
Thank you for doing such a thorough, biblically based presentation.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/3/2002 11:37 AM (GMT -6) | | Dr. Bob, I'm honored. Thanks.
Hilton: AS I read it, it seems that ision between the angels is pretty settled. But Psl. 82 makes me wonder. Perhaps some of them are no wholly solidified one way or the other yet.
Also, even with regard to angels who are solidified on God's side, I wonder if they are all equally competent. Why not?
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul | | Back to Top | | |
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Hilston
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Total Posts : 103
| Posted 3/3/2002 4:46 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Greg,
Thanks for your reply. I had asked: Question: Do you believe the holy/elect angels can work against the Almighty?
Greg replies:quote:
AS I read it, it seems that ision between the angels is pretty settled.
If it's settled, does that mean an angel is not free to rebel against God if one so chose?
Domo,
James Hilston
hilston1@aol.com
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GregBoyd
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Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 3/3/2002 8:20 PM (GMT -6) | | If an angel's (or humans) character is settled toward God, then in my view they aren't any longer free in a libertarian sense to choose against God. Their character is such that they would never want to choose against God.
As I understand it, the purpose of libertaria freedom is to become compatibilistic freedom. The fact that some angels rebelled against God tells me they once had (at least) libertarian freedom, even if they (or at least most) don't have it now. So too, the fact that humans rebelled against God, and the fact that God calls on us to choose to follow him, tells me we have libertarian freedom, though the goal (which I think can and should be attained in this life) is to become solidified in our choice for God.
When the kingdom comes, I think all believers will be like the holy angels: so free to love God we are unable to do otherwise.
Blessings
Greg
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/5/2002 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Greg,
I think that angels don’t minister to the body of Christ like they did to Israel. At least I haven’t found any Scripture to that effect.
I do believe that the fallen angels are at war with God and His church, the Body of Christ, according to Eph 6:11,12 “Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” I believe this passage and Col 1:14-17 show the fallen angels who are against us: “in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. [I think all the angelic beings may be included in this description.] All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” The orders or ranks among angels are shown again in Eph 1:21: “far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.”
These negative spiritual beings are active in blinding the unbelievers in this world. 2 Co 4:4 “whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.” And, the angels who did not fall are witnesses to our actions according to 1 Ti 5:21: “I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.”
We are sure of this spiritual battle’s outcome. Rom 8:38,39 “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Until the rapture, I believe we are in an extreme spiritual conflict with negative angelic beings.
In Christ,
Bob Hill
biblicalanswers.com
Edited by - Bob Hill on 03/05/2002 3:54:45 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/5/2002 11:36 AM (GMT -6) | | | But Bob. Though by yourself, starting over with a blank slate and filling the slate with only what you yourself can find in scripture... you have a different view than some (Orthodoxy) who have an ongoing tradition. This last post even differs from what several real-live Evangelicals I know have experienced. is it safe to start over all by your lonesome--so to speak? | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/6/2002 2:36 AM (GMT -6) | | Two things:
1. With regard to the angels, perhaps there was a line to be crossed: All for God, step over here; the rest go with Satan. At that point in time when some went with Satan, the others were granted compatibilistic freedom; as a result of their choosing God's side, they would forever be protected (elect) from ever having to worry about falling (similar to what I believe will happen with us in terms of our libertarian free will).
2. Bob, none of your quotes (and they're good ones!) show that it's angels we're fighting against. The only angel references in Scripture against us is Satan. At the moment, I hold that according to Jude 6 (in conjunction with I Pet 3:19) the angels who rebelled are in prison, in chains. I can't find Scripture to say that only a few are and others aren't. Demons are therefore not fallen angels.
The question then arises where'd the demon's come from? Some say from the offspring are from the union of angels and man (Gen 6); disembodied spirits after the flood). Interesting to note, however, is that Jesus prior to His incarnation would have known these spirits, whomever they are. And it seems to come through indirectly when He confronts the demoniac in Mark 5 and allows a negotiation between Himself and the legion. It's really, really odd that Christ would even listen to them, particularly if they're so "evil". Rather, he negotiates. My thought is that perhaps these evil spirits are those whom Jesus remembers from time past and, too, would have hoped they wouldn't have rebelled. Jesus isn't cruel to them. He isn't even completely against them in His dealing with them. Weird, eh!
For the elect angels,
Starkman
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/6/2002 6:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Starkman,
Thanks for your response.
I believe the angels reserved in chains are the angels of Gen 6. I'll attempt to prove it later if you disagree.
I realize the passages in Eph and Col do not call those powerful beings angels, but I believe they are different levels of angels.
Do you believe they were negative spiritual beings?
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Edited by - Bob Hill on 03/06/2002 11:11:26 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 3/7/2002 2:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Hey Bob,
quote:
I realize the passages in Eph and Col do not call those powerful beings angels, but I believe they are different levels of angels.
Yes, I sure do. I would even go so far as to say that in a round about way it would include all spiritual beings; good and bad. I mean, they're all going to see the mystery of God unfold before their eyes. But specifically, yes, I agree they are evil spiritual beings.
Starkman
Do you believe they were negative spiritual beings?
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Bob Hill
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Total Posts : 98
| Posted 3/7/2002 7:16 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks Starkman,
It looks like we're on the same page.
God bless you,
Bob Hill
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