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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 12/14/2003 8:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Editorial on Saddam’s capture.
http://www.iht.com/articles/121434.html
The United States and its allies achieved a central goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq when they captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. The one incontrovertible fact in the entire bloody and divisive saga of Iraq is that this man ranked with the worst of the world’s tyrants. His crimes — the hundreds of thousands of his people he ordered massacred, gassed and tortured, some quite possibly with his own hands — are monstrous.
.
We hope his arrest will bring an end to organized violence against American troops, though that is far from certain. Alas, the guerrilla war against the occupation forces has attracted many Islamist radicals whose goal is simply to wage war on the West, and they are unlikely to call it quits. What the arrest surely will do is relieve Iraqis of the lingering fear that somehow Saddam might return to power. It may also finally shed light on the many mysteries that remain about his dictatorship, including what happened to his unconventional weapons programs.
.
It is critical now that the dictator be given a fair and open trial to erase any doubts about the scope of his crimes, to give some solace to the people he terrorized and to give pause to other despots. The trial must be above any suspicion that it is the justice of the victors, or an exercise in propaganda. Unfortunately, Iraq’s judicial institutions are not yet in a position to handle the case on their own, but every effort should be made to maximize the involvement of Iraqis. One solution would be a trial conducted in Iraq under United Nations auspices by a tribunal composed of eminent international and Iraqi judges.
.
The capture of Saddam provides a much-needed piece of good news for President George W. Bush. Over the past eight months, the occupation of Iraq was fast becoming an exorbitantly expensive disaster. Guerrilla violence has been constant, leading American officers to adopt harsh repressive tactics. Reconstruction of the basic Iraqi infrastructure has been slow. The appointed Iraqi government has been ineffective. The reconstruction effort is tangled up in charges of overbilling. European allies have been repeatedly pushed away.
.
Against this increasingly dismal backdrop come the heartening images of Saddam’s tired visage framed in a tangle of unkempt hair and beard, and of Iraqis dancing in the streets. That gives the Bush administration a rich opportunity to make a serious correction in its direction and tactics.
.
Instead of driving away France, Germany, Russia and Canada with financial sanctions, the president can now start anew and create the room for compromise that will encourage these countries to help with the reconstruction and policing of Iraq. That, in turn, could help to create a sufficiently secure enough environment for the United Nations to come in and take over nation-building responsibilities, giving the occupation an international face. That would be the best possible backdrop to the trial of Saddam Hussein.
The United States and its allies achieved a central goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq when they captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. The one incontrovertible fact in the entire bloody and divisive saga of Iraq is that this man ranked with the worst of the world’s tyrants. His crimes — the hundreds of thousands of his people he ordered massacred, gassed and tortured, some quite possibly with his own hands — are monstrous.
.
We hope his arrest will bring an end to organized violence against American troops, though that is far from certain. Alas, the guerrilla war against the occupation forces has attracted many Islamist radicals whose goal is simply to wage war on the West, and they are unlikely to call it quits. What the arrest surely will do is relieve Iraqis of the lingering fear that somehow Saddam might return to power. It may also finally shed light on the many mysteries that remain about his dictatorship, including what happened to his unconventional weapons programs.
.
It is critical now that the dictator be given a fair and open trial to erase any doubts about the scope of his crimes, to give some solace to the people he terrorized and to give pause to other despots. The trial must be above any suspicion that it is the justice of the victors, or an exercise in propaganda. Unfortunately, Iraq’s judicial institutions are not yet in a position to handle the case on their own, but every effort should be made to maximize the involvement of Iraqis. One solution would be a trial conducted in Iraq under United Nations auspices by a tribunal composed of eminent international and Iraqi judges.
.
The capture of Saddam provides a much-needed piece of good news for President George W. Bush. Over the past eight months, the occupation of Iraq was fast becoming an exorbitantly expensive disaster. Guerrilla violence has been constant, leading American officers to adopt harsh repressive tactics. Reconstruction of the basic Iraqi infrastructure has been slow. The appointed Iraqi government has been ineffective. The reconstruction effort is tangled up in charges of overbilling. European allies have been repeatedly pushed away.
.
Against this increasingly dismal backdrop come the heartening images of Saddam’s tired visage framed in a tangle of unkempt hair and beard, and of Iraqis dancing in the streets. That gives the Bush administration a rich opportunity to make a serious correction in its direction and tactics.
.
Instead of driving away France, Germany, Russia and Canada with financial sanctions, the president can now start anew and create the room for compromise that will encourage these countries to help with the reconstruction and policing of Iraq. That, in turn, could help to create a sufficiently secure enough environment for the United Nations to come in and take over nation-building responsibilities, giving the occupation an international face. That would be the best possible backdrop to the trial of Saddam Hussein.
The United States and its allies achieved a central goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq when they captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. The one incontrovertible fact in the entire bloody and divisive saga of Iraq is that this man ranked with the worst of the world’s tyrants. His crimes — the hundreds of thousands of his people he ordered massacred, gassed and tortured, some quite possibly with his own hands — are monstrous.
.
We hope his arrest will bring an end to organized violence against American troops, though that is far from certain. Alas, the guerrilla war against the occupation forces has attracted many Islamist radicals whose goal is simply to wage war on the West, and they are unlikely to call it quits. What the arrest surely will do is relieve Iraqis of the lingering fear that somehow Saddam might return to power. It may also finally shed light on the many mysteries that remain about his dictatorship, including what happened to his unconventional weapons programs.
.
It is critical now that the dictator be given a fair and open trial to erase any doubts about the scope of his crimes, to give some solace to the people he terrorized and to give pause to other despots. The trial must be above any suspicion that it is the justice of the victors, or an exercise in propaganda. Unfortunately, Iraq’s judicial institutions are not yet in a position to handle the case on their own, but every effort should be made to maximize the involvement of Iraqis. One solution would be a trial conducted in Iraq under United Nations auspices by a tribunal composed of eminent international and Iraqi judges.
.
The capture of Saddam provides a much-needed piece of good news for President George W. Bush. Over the past eight months, the occupation of Iraq was fast becoming an exorbitantly expensive disaster. Guerrilla violence has been constant, leading American officers to adopt harsh repressive tactics. Reconstruction of the basic Iraqi infrastructure has been slow. The appointed Iraqi government has been ineffective. The reconstruction effort is tangled up in charges of overbilling. European allies have been repeatedly pushed away.
.
Against this increasingly dismal backdrop come the heartening images of Saddam’s tired visage framed in a tangle of unkempt hair and beard, and of Iraqis dancing in the streets. That gives the Bush administration a rich opportunity to make a serious correction in its direction and tactics.
.
Instead of driving away France, Germany, Russia and Canada with financial sanctions, the president can now start anew and create the room for compromise that will encourage these countries to help with the reconstruction and policing of Iraq. That, in turn, could help to create a sufficiently secure enough environment for the United Nations to come in and take over nation-building responsibilities, giving the occupation an international face. That would be the best possible backdrop to the trial of Saddam Hussein.
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/14/2003 9:18 AM (GMT -6) | | DLW wrote:
quote:
Editorial on Saddam’s capture.
The United States and its allies achieved a central goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq when they captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. The one incontrovertible fact in the entire bloody and divisive saga of Iraq is that this man ranked with the worst of the world’’s tyrants. His crimes —— the hundreds of thousands of his people he ordered massacred, gassed and tortured, some quite possibly with his own hands —— are monstrous.
We hope his arrest will bring an end to organized violence against American troops, though that is far from certain. Alas, the guerrilla war against the occupation forces has attracted many Islamist radicals whose goal is simply to wage war on the West, and they are unlikely to call it quits. What the arrest surely will do is relieve Iraqis of the lingering fear that somehow Saddam might return to power. It may also finally shed light on the many mysteries that remain about his dictatorship, including what happened to his unconventional weapons programs.
It is critical now that the dictator be given a fair and open trial to erase any doubts about the scope of his crimes, to give some solace to the people he terrorized and to give pause to other despots. The trial must be above any suspicion that it is the justice of the victors, or an exercise in propaganda. Unfortunately, Iraq’’s judicial institutions are not yet in a position to handle the case on their own, but every effort should be made to maximize the involvement of Iraqis. One solution would be a trial conducted in Iraq under United Nations auspices by a tribunal composed of eminent international and Iraqi judges.
The capture of Saddam provides a much-needed piece of good news for President George W. Bush.
Over the past eight months, the occupation of Iraq was fast becoming an exorbitantly expensive disaster. Guerrilla violence has been constant, leading American officers to adopt harsh repressive tactics.
Reconstruction of the basic Iraqi infrastructure has been slow.
The appointed Iraqi government has been ineffective. The reconstruction effort is tangled up in charges of overbilling. European allies have been repeatedly pushed away.
Against this increasingly dismal backdrop...
come the heartening images of Saddam’’s tired visage framed in a tangle of unkempt hair and beard, and of Iraqis dancing in the streets.
That gives the Bush administration a rich opportunity to make a serious correction in its direction and tactics.
Instead of driving away France, Germany, Russia and Canada with financial sanctions, the
president can now start anew and create the room for compromise that will encourage these countries to help with the reconstruction and policing of Iraq.
That, in turn, could help to create a sufficiently secure enough environment for the United Nations to come in and take over nation-building responsibilities, giving the occupation an international face.
That would be the best possible backdrop to the trial of Saddam Hussein.
Amen.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/14/2003 9:22 AM (GMT -6) | | SADDAM CAPTURED IN DIRTY HOLE
'The tyrant is a prisoner,' Bremer tells reporters
U.S. hopes resistance will end
By Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press
ASSOCIATED PRESS
BAGHDAD, Iraq —— Without firing a shot, American forces captured a bearded and haggard-looking Saddam Hussein in an underground hide-out on a farm near his hometown of Tikrit, ending one of the most intensive manhunts in history. The arrest was a huge victory for U.S. forces battling an insurgency by the ousted dictator''s followers.
""Ladies and gentlemen, we got him,"" U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer told a news conference today, eight months after American troops swept into Baghdad and toppled Saddam''s regime.
""The tyrant is a prisoner.""
In the capital, radio stations played celebratory music, residents fired small arms in the air in celebration and passengers on buses and trucks shouted, ""They got Saddam! They got Saddam!"" Eager to prove to Iraqis that Saddam was in custody, the military showed video of the ousted leader, bearded and dishevelled, being examined by a military doctor.
Washington hopes Saddam''s capture will help break the organized Iraq resistance that has killed more than 190 American soldiers since President Bush declared major combat over on May 1 and has set back efforts at reconstruction.
But Maj. Gen. Ray Odierno, commander of the 4th Infantry Division, which captured Saddam, said the ousted leader did not appear to be directly organizing resistance —— noting no communication devices were found in his hiding place. ""I believe he was there more for moral support,"" Odierno said.
Saddam''s capture was based on information from a member of a family ""close to him,"" Odierno told reporters in Tikrit. ""Finally we got the ultimate information from one of these individuals,"" he said.
The capture took place at 8:30 p.m. yesterday local time at one of dozens of safehouses Saddam is thought to have: a walled compound on a farm in Adwar, a town 16 kilometres from Tikrit, not far from one of Saddam''s former palaces, Odierno said.
""I think it''s rather ironic that he was in a hole in the ground across the river from these great palaces that he built,"" Odierno told reporters in Tikrit.
The event comes almost five months after his sons, Qusai and Odai, were killed July 22 in a four-hour gun battle with U.S. troops in a hideout in the northern city of Mosul. There was hope at the time that the sons'' deaths would dampen the Iraqi resistance to the U.S. occupation. But since then, the guerrilla campaign has mounted dramatically.
In the latest attack, a suspected suicide bomber detonated explosives in a car outside a police station this morning west of Baghdad, killing at least 17 people and wounding 33 more, the U.S. military said. Also Sunday, a U.S. soldier died while trying to disarm a roadside bomb south of the capital —— the 452nd soldier to die in Iraq.
Saddam was one of the most-wanted fugitives in the world, along with Osama bin Laden, the leader of the Al Qaeda terrorist network who has not been caught despite a manhunt since November 2001, when the Taliban regime was overthrown in Afghanistan.
Some 600 troops and special forces were involved in the raid that netted Saddam —— though not all were aware beforehand that the objective was ""High Value Target No. 1,"" Odierno said.
Troops found the ousted leader, armed with a pistol, hiding in an underground crawl space at the walled compound, Odierno said. The entrance to the hiding place, covered with rugs and dirt, was a few feet from small, mud-brick hut where Saddam had been staying.
The hole in which American forces found
former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein near his
hometown of Tikrit is seen in this image made
from video Dec. 14.
The hut consisted of two rooms, a bedroom with clothes scattered about and a ""rudimentary kitchen,"" Odierno said. The commander said Saddam likely had been there only a short time, noting that new shirts, still unwrapped, were found in the bedroom.
Saddam was ""very disoriented"" as soldiers brought him out of the hole, Odierno said. A Pentagon diagram showed the hiding place as a 6-foot-deep vertical tunnel, with a shorter tunnel branching out horizontally from one side. A pipe to the concrete surface at ground level provided air.
Saddam didn''t fire his weapon. ""There was no way he could fight back so he was just caught like a rat,"" Odierno said.
Two other Iraqis —— described as low-level regime figures —— were arrested in the raid, and soldiers found two Kalashnikov rifles, a pistol, a taxi and $750,000 in U.S. $100 bills.
A U.S. defence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said Saddam admitted his identity when captured.
Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. military commander in Iraq, who saw Saddam overnight, said the deposed leader ""has been cooperative and is talkative."" He described Saddam as ""a tired man, a man resigned to his fate.""
""He was unrepentant and defiant,"" said Adel Abdel-Mahdi, a senior official of a Shiite Muslim political party who, along with other Iraqi leaders, visited Saddam in captivity.
""When we told him, ‘‘If you go to the streets now, you will see the people celebrating,''"" Abdel-Mahdi said. ""He answered, ‘‘Those are mobs.'' When we told him about the mass graves, he replied, ''Those are thieves.''""
The official added: ""He didn''t seem apologetic. He seemed defiant, trying to find excuses for the crimes in the same way he did in the past.""
The White House said Saddam''s capture assures the Iraqi people that the deposed leader is gone from power for good.
""The Iraqi people can finally be assured that Saddam Hussein will not be coming back —— they can see it for themselves,"" White House press secretary Scott McClellan said.
Sanchez played a video at the news conference showing the 66-year-old Saddam in custody.
Saddam Hussein had a shaggy beard
when he was captured near Tikrit Saturday.
Saddam, with a thick, graying beard and bushy, dishevelled hair, was seen as doctor examined him, feeling his scalp and holding his mouth open with a tongue depressor, apparently to get a DNA sample. Saddam blinked and touched his beard during the exam. Then the video showed a picture of Saddam after he was shaved, juxtaposed for comparison with an old photo of the Iraqi leader while in power.
Iraqi journalists at the press conference stood, pointed and shouted ""Death to Saddam!"" and ""Down with Saddam!""
Though the raid occurred yesterday afternoon American time, U.S. officials went to great length to keep it quiet until medical tests and DNA testing confirmed Saddam''s identity.
DNA tests confirmed Saddam''s identity, said the president of Iraqi Governing Council, Abdel-Aziz al-Hakim.
Saddam was being held at an undisclosed location, and U.S. authorities have not yet determined whether to hand him over to the Iraqis for trial or what his status would be. Iraqi officials want him to stand trial before a war crimes tribunal created last week.
Amnesty International said today that Saddam should be given POW status and allowed visits by the international Red Cross.
Ahmad Chalabi, a member of Iraq''s Governing Council, said Saddam will be put on trial.
""Saddam will stand a public trial so that the Iraqi people will know his crimes,"" Chalabi told Al-Iraqiya, a Pentagon-funded TV station.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair hailed the capture, saying the deposed leader ""has gone from power, he won''t be coming back.""
""Where his rule meant terror and division and brutality, let his capture bring about unity, reconciliation and peace between all the people of Iraq,"" Blair said.
Celebratory gunfire erupted in the capital, and shop owners closed their doors, fearful that the shooting would make the streets unsafe.
""I''m very happy for the Iraqi people. Life is going to be safer now,"" said 35-year-old Yehya Hassan, a resident of Baghdad. ""Now we can start a new beginning.""
Earlier in the day, rumours of the capture sent people streaming into the streets of Kirkuk, a northern Iraqi city, firing guns in the air in celebration.
""We are celebrating like it''s a wedding,"" said Kirkuk resident Mustapha Sheriff. ""We are finally rid of that criminal.""
Still, many Baghdadis were skeptical.
""I heard the news, but I''ll believe it when I see it,"" said Mohaned al-Hasaji, 33. ""They need to show us that they really have him.""
Ayet Bassem, 24, walked out of a shop with her 6-year-old son.
""Things will be better for my son,"" she said. ""Everyone says everything will be better when Saddam is caught. My son now has a future.""
After invading Iraq on March 20 and setting up their headquarters in Saddam''s sprawling Republican Palace compound in Baghdad, U.S. troops launched a massive manhunt for the fugitive leader, placing a $25 million (U.S.) bounty on his head and sending thousands of soldiers to search for him.
Saddam proved elusive during the war, when at least two dramatic military strikes came up empty in their efforts to assassinate him. Since then, he has appeared in both video and audio tapes. U.S. officials named him No. 1 on their list of 55 most-wanted Iraqis, the Ace of Spades in a special deck of most-wanted cards.
Saddam''s capture leaves 13 figures still at large from the list. The highest ranking figure among them is Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, a close Saddam aide who U.S. officials have said may be directly organizing resistance.
[end]
====================================
A CHRONOLOGY OF KEY EVENTS
IN THE LIFE OF FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT
SADDAM HUSSEIN:
April 28, 1937: Born in village near desert town of Tikrit, north of Baghdad.
1957: Joins underground Baath Socialist party.
1958: Arrested for killing his brother-in-law, a Communist, spends six months in prison.
Oct. 7, 1959: On Baath assassination team that ambushes Iraqi strongman Gen. Abdel-Karim Kassem in Baghdad, wounding him. Saddam, wounded in leg, flees to Syria then Egypt.
Feb. 8, 1963: Returns from Egypt after Baath takes part in coup that overthrows and kills Kassem. Baath ousted by military in November.
July 17, 1968: Baathists and army officers overthrow regime.
July 30, 1968: Takes charge of internal security after Baath ousts erstwhile allies and authority passes to Revolutionary Command Council under Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr, Saddam's cousin.
July 16, 1979: Takes over as president from al-Bakr, launches massive purge of Baath.
Sept. 22, 1980: Sends forces into Iran; war last eight years.
March 28, 1988: Uses chemical weapons against Kurdish town of Halabja, killing estimated 5,000 civilians.
Aug. 2, 1990: Invades Kuwait.
Jan. 17, 1991: Attacked by U.S.-led coalition; Kuwait liberated in a month.
March, 1991: Crushes Shiite revolt in south and Kurd revolt in north. April 17, 1991: Complying with UN Resolution 687, starts providing information on weapons of mass destruction, but accused of cheating.
Feb. 20, 1996: Orders killing of two sons-in-law who in 1995 defected to Jordan and had just returned to Baghdad after receiving guarantees of safety.
Dec. 16, 1998: Weapons inspectors withdrawn from Iraq. Hours later, four days of U.S.-British air and missile strikes begin as punishment for lack of co-operation.
Nov. 8, 2002: Warned by UN Security Council resolution that he faces ``serious consequences'' if he does not disarm Iraq.
Nov. 27, 2002: Allows UN experts to begin work in Iraq for first time since 1998.
Dec. 7, 2002: Delivers to United Nations declaration denying Iraq has weapons of mass destruction; later, United States says declaration is untruthful and United Nations says it is incomplete.
March 1: United Arab Emirates, at an Arab League summit, becomes first Arab nation to propose publicly that Saddam step down.
March 7: United States, Britain and Spain propose ordering Saddam to give up banned weapons by March 17 or face war; other countries led by France on polarized UN Security Council oppose any new resolution that would authorize military action.
March 17: United States, Britain and Spain declare time for diplomacy over, withdraw proposed resolution. President George W. Bush gives Saddam 48 hours to leave Iraq.
March 18: Iraq's leadership rejects Bush's ultimatum.
March 20: U.S. forces open war with military strike on target near Baghdad aimed at Iraq's leadership.
April 9: U.S. troops inside Baghdad; unruly crowds go on looting rampages, topple statue of Saddam.
July 22: Saddam's sons, Qusai and Odai, killed in gunbattle with U.S. troops.
July 31: Two of Saddam's daughters, Raghad and Rana, and their nine children are given asylum by Jordan's King Abdullah.
Sept. 5: Maj.-Gen. Ray Odierno of the 4th Infantry Division says his troops have captured several of Saddam's former bodyguards in the Tikrit area in the past month and may be closing in on the deposed Iraqi leader.
Nov. 16: The last of nine tapes attributed to Saddam since he was removed from power is released. It tells Iraqis to step up their resistance to the U.S.-led occupation, saying the United States and its allies misjudged the difficulty of occupying Iraq.
December 14, 2003: Saddam is captured in a town outside Tikrit, officials say.
[end]
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 12/14/2003 12:37 PM (GMT -6) | | New Iraqi Leaders Confront Their Former Dictator
By IAN FISHER
Published: December 14, 2003
AGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 14 — The wild gray beard was gone, and he sat on a metal Army cot, just awake from a nap, in socks and black slippers. He was not handcuffed. He did not recognize all his visitors, but they recognized him. That was the purpose of the visit: to help confirm that this was, in fact, Saddam Hussein.
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What came next was, according to people in the room, an extraordinary 30 minutes, in which four members of the Governing Council, among the new leaders of Iraq, grilled the nation's deposed and now captured leader about his crimes. Mr. Hussein, they said, was defiant and unrepentant — but very much defeated.
"The world is crazy," said Mowaffak al-Rubaie, one of the council members in the room today after Mr. Hussein was captured in his hometown of Tikrit. "I was in his torture chamber in 1979 and now he was sitting there, powerless in front of me without anybody stopping me from doing anything to him. Just imagine. We were arguing, and he was using very foul language."
Ahmad Chalabi, the head of the Iraqi National Congress, said: "He was quite lucid. He had command of his faculties. He would not apologize to the Iraqi people. He did not deny any of the crimes he was confronted with having done. He tried to justify them."
Following Mr. Hussein's capture — in an eight-foot hole that one council member said was filled with "rats and mice" — the four council members were taken by helicopter this afternoon to a military base, at a site they would not disclose. Two other council members, in addition to Mr. Rubaie and Dr. Chalabi, were aboard: Adnan Pachachi, the foreign minister before Mr. Hussein came to power; and Adel Abdel Mahdi, who represents the Shia religious body, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.
Two of Iraq's other new leaders were there, too: L. Paul Bremer III, the American civilian administrator of Iraq; and Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of ground forces in Iraq. The room was small, Mr. Rubaie said, and General Sanchez asked the men if they would like to see him through a window or by camera.
"We said, `No, we want to talk to him,' " Mr. Rubaie said.
Aides to the men differed slightly about what happened next: One said that Mr. Hussein, who they said had just awakened, did not recognize any of his visitors. Another said he recognized Dr. Chalabi and asked him to introduce the others.
"Saddam turned to Pachachi and said: `You were the foreign minister of Iraq. What are you doing with these people?' " one aide said.
Mr. Rubaie said he had asked the first question — which, he said, was met with a brutal and dismissive joke. He said he had asked why Mr. Hussein had killed two leading Shia clerics: Muhammad Bakr al-Sadr, killed in 1980; and Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, killed in 1999.
The word "sadr" means "chest" in Arabic, and Mr. Hussein replied, "Al Sadr or Ar Rijil?" That translates as: "The chest or the foot?"
The men then asked Mr. Hussein about three of the crimes of which he has been accused in his nearly 35 years in power:
Asked about the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the northern Iraqi town of Halabja in 1988, in which an estimated 5,000 people were killed, Mr. Hussein said this was the work of Iran, at war with Iraq at the time.
Asked about the mass graves of tens of thousands of Iraqis uncovered since Mr. Hussein was toppled from power in the American-led offensive this spring, Mr. Rubaie said that Mr. Hussein answered: "Ask their relatives. They were thieves and they ran away from the battlefields with Iran and from the battlefields of Kuwait."
Asked why he invaded Kuwait in 1990, provoking the first American-led assault on Iraq the next year, he said that Kuwait was rightfully a part of Iraq.
"He was not remorseful at all," Dr. Chalabi said. "It was clear he was a complete narcissist who was incapable of showing remorse or sympathy to other human beings."
Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein also suggested that he had been behind the recent wave of attacks against American soldiers in Iraq since his defeat.
"He said, `I gave a speech and I said the Americans can come to Iraq but they can't occupy it and rule it,' " Dr. Chalabi said. "He said, `I said I would fight them with pistols and I have.'
"He didn't say it directly but he was trying to take credit for it."
At a news conference this evening, Mr. Pachachi said Mr. Hussein had tried to justify himself by saying that Iraqis needed a tough ruler.
"He tried to justify his crimes by saying that he was a just but firm ruler," he said. "Of course, our answer was he was an unjust ruler responsible for the deaths of thousands of people."
Throughout the meeting, Mr. Hussein was calm but often used foul language. Mr. Pachachi said he looked "tired and haggard." Mr. Bremer and General Sanchez, they said, did not speak, though Dr. Chalabi said that Mr. Hussein was "deferential and respectful to the Americans."
"You can conclude from that some aspect that he was reconciled to his situation," he said.
"The most important fact: Had the roles been reversed, he would have torn us apart and cut us into small pieces after torture," Dr. Chalabi said. "This contrast was paramount in my mind — how we treated him and how he would have treated us."
Mr. Rubaie said: "One thing which is very important is that this man had with him underground when they arrested him two AK-47's and did not shoot one bullet. I told him, `You keep on saying that you are a brave man and a proud Arab.' I said, `When they arrested you why didn't you shoot one bullet? You are a coward.'
"And he started to use very colorful language. Basically, he used all his French."
Mr. Rubaie added: "I was so angry because this guy has caused so much damage. He has ruined the whole country. He has ruined 25 million people.
"And I have to confess that the last word was for me: I was the last to leave the room and I said, `May God curse you. Tell me, when are you going to be accountable to God and the day of judgment? What are you going to tell Him about Halabja and the mass graves, the Iran-Iraq war, thousands and thousands executed? What are you going to tell God?' He was exercising his French language."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/14/international/middleeast/14CND-COUNC.html
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/14/2003 12:52 PM (GMT -6) | | DLW wrote:
quote:
I'd like to recommend the DVD, "Uncle Saddam" for a good overview of Saddam's history as a ruler and a look at him as a person.
I haven't seen it yet, but found a number of reviews:
Amazon.com
CUSTOMER REVIEWS: Uncle Saddam (2000)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000897A7/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-2008067-3071161?v=glance&s=dvd&vi=customer-reviews
And,
another review: Uncle Saddam
....."Film-maker Joel Soler took some incredible risks to shoot this documentary about Saddam Hussein. Hussein thought that this was going to be a piece of praise about him and so allowed the film-maker access to a great many things unseen by Western eyes. What he didn't count on is Soler's tongue-in-cheek style, and the fact that Soler often risked his own life to film things that would have easily brought him the death penalty were he caught. The result is some pretty private footage that is as entertaining as it is satirical as it is frightening..."
Reviewed 7/18/03
-------
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 12/15/2003 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | Evidence God may have been at work in abetting Saddam's capture.
dlw
A Small Piece of Fiber on Ground Yields Big Payoff for U.S.
By JOHN F. BURNS
Published: December 15, 2003
D DWAR, Iraq, Dec. 15 — A piece of fiber protruding from the dirt caught the eye of an American special forces soldier as he searched the courtyard of a rundown farm in northern Iraq on Saturday.
The American military had been combing the Ad Dawr area as part of a nine-day hunt in an area around Tikrit, after questioning a prominent figure from a tribal family known to be close to Saddam Hussein.
But it was this small detail — a tuft of fiber on a rubber mat — that ultimately betrayed Mr. Hussein's hiding place and ended the American military's hunt for the former Iraqi leader more than eight months after his ouster from power. Mr. Hussein is now being held at a location that the United States military will not disclose.
American forces flew journalists to the dilapidated farmhouse today just outside of the town of Ad Dwar to give them a description of how the events leading to Mr. Hussein's capture had unfolded.
The single-story farmhouse made of concrete blocks is edged by a courtyard and encircled by a fence of tree branches and palm fronds. Branches on orange trees hung low with fruit. Chickens and a single cow were cooped up in the yard, and dates and sausage were strung outside, apparently to cure
In the first sweep through the area, the soldiers found nothing, according to a narrative provided by military officials. Then they combed it again. That was when one noticed the fiber. Only a sliver was evident under the dirt where he was standing. But the soldier thought it was strange.
He and some comrades yanked at the mat, and it came up to reveal a styrofoam slab with handles. They pulled on them, and the plug came loose from a shaft leading into the ground. The soldiers were prepared to throw a grenade into the gloomy depths when two hands suddenly appeared.
The soldiers reached down and pulled out a man, disheveled, bearded and apparently disoriented from the cramped underground confines where he had been hiding.
"I am Saddam Hussein, president of Iraq," the man told his captors in halting English. "I am willing to negotiate."
A special forces soldier replied, "President Bush sends his regards."
Visitors to the shaft today could see that it dropped down about eight feet into a coffinlike space made of concrete, its roof supported by wooden beams. At one end is a ventilator fan, and a steel pipe supplied ventilation near the floor. A small neon bulb provided some light. The space was just large enough for a man about six feet tall to lie down.
The military said that Mr. Hussein had had an assault rifle and a pistol with him, but today the only items visible inside were a plastic bag and some Q-tips.
The search missions for Iraqi officials wanted by the United States in Iraq involve what the military calls high-value targets. The code name for Saturday's mission was H.V.T.-1.
After Mr. Hussein was taken into custody, a special forces soldier radioed Col. James Hickey, 43, of Chicago, who is in charge of the First Brigade of the Fourth Infantry Division and the special operations forces who formed the core of the raid.
"We believe we have H.V.T.-1," the soldier said, adding a moment later that he believed him to be the fugitive Iraqi leader.
Colonel Hickey then radioed his superior with the news. But he said there were no celebrations on the spot. "This was business," he told reporters.
The colonel said the team followed standard procedures, which call for people taken into custody to be manacled with plastic cuffs and put into loose hoods before they are taken away.
Mr. Hussein's capture culminated a search over the last nine days that involved several raids in the Tikrit area. The target area was just over a mile long and a half mile wide. The farmhouse where Mr. Hussein was found is nestled along the reed banks of the Tigris River. As journalists flew in today by helicopter over the flatlands and banks, farmers and their children waved from the ground.
Military officials said two men at the farmhouse were also taken into custody, but they were not immediately identified.
The interior of the farmhouse was spare, with two beds. Possessions that the American military believed were Mr. Hussein's were strewn about, including Arabic poetry books, new sandals, shoes, socks and unopened boxer shorts and T-shirts.
Over the door to the hut were the words, in Arabic, "Praise be to God, the most Merciful."
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/15/2003 12:12 PM (GMT -6) | | PIONEER PRESS, St. Paul, Minnesota
Monday, December 15, 2003
IRAQI RESISTANCE: Arrest unlikely to settle uprising
By Rajiv Chandraskaran and Thomas E. Ricks,
WASHINGTON POST
BAGHDAD, Iraq — The capture of former President Saddam Hussein was greeted with euphoria at the marble-walled headquarters of the U.S. occupation authority in Baghdad, but in the towns and villages to the north and west of the capital, where anger at the occupation is most intense, Saddam's arrest may have little impact on the insurgency that has roiled the country in recent months.
In the eight months that Saddam has been on the run, the resistance has gathered a momentum of its own, driven primarily by local financiers and ringleaders. Although gloating crowds often glorify Saddam after attacks, recent interviews across the most restive parts of Iraq suggest that motivation for the insurgency extends well beyond loyalty to the former leader.
"An insurgency is about more than one person," said Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism analyst at the RAND Corp. "An insurgency gains traction because of fundamental grievances among a population that are exploited by the fighters."
In rhetorical terms at least — the ideology that propels the campaign — the message of those fighters and their supporters has relied more on nationalism and religion than Saddam himself.
"We are not fighting for Saddam," said Ahmed Jassim, a religious student in the flash-point city of Fallujah, as he cheered an attack on a U.S. convoy recently. "We are fighting for our country, for our honor, for Islam. We are not doing this for Saddam."
U.S. military officials said Saddam's capture probably wouldn't spell an immediate end to the fighting and could result in a short-term increase in attacks, if Saddam loyalists lash back. "We do not expect at this point in time that we will have a complete elimination of those attacks," Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the U.S. military commander in Iraq, said at a news conference Sunday.
But U.S. commanders across the country expressed confidence that over time, the capture would cripple resistance activity. Army officers said they think the seizure of Saddam also might convince many Iraqis who so far haven't supported the occupation that history is on the side of the Americans and their allies.
"The capture of Saddam Hussein will have a tremendous negative impact on the Baathist insurgency, and it is all good news for us and the future of Iraq," Lt. Col. Henry Arnold, a battalion commander in the 101st Airborne Division who is based near the Syrian border, said Sunday. "The Wicked Witch is dead."
"Without Saddam," another U.S. commander said, "this is no longer a nationalist movement."
For U.S. forces, the most immediate challenge will be to capitalize on information gleaned from Saddam. "The good news is we believe we will gain some actionable intelligence over the next few days, as Saddam is interrogated," said Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling, an assistant commander of the 1st Armored Division, which has responsibility for most of Baghdad. "What he has in his possession, and what he will certainly say to those questioning him, will certainly contribute to connecting some additional dots."
But the commander in charge of the operation to apprehend Saddam, Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno of the 4th Infantry Division, said it did not appear that the former president was directly organizing resistance activities from his hideout. No communication devices were found in either the hole in which he was found or a nearby hut.
Odierno and other top U.S. commanders have long maintained that they haven't seen signs of national leadership for the resistance, suggesting that Saddam's apprehension may have a more symbolic than practical impact on the insurgency.
"I believe he was there more for moral support," Odierno said. "I don't believe he was coordinating the effort because I don't believe there's any national coordination."
In recent months, the hostility has seemed ascendant. After dozens of fighters in Samarra were killed by U.S. forces in lengthy gun battles late last month, young men visiting wounded civilians at Samarra General Hospital insisted the fighters were motivated by what they described as nationalism and religion.
"Everyone is with the resistance," said Safa Hamad Hassan, 22, whose cousin was wounded when a tank round landed near his home during the fighting. "Saddam Hussein is finished. We are protecting our honor and our land."
While slogans in the town praised Saddam, much of the graffiti were directed at Iraqis viewed as collaborating with U.S. forces. "We will blow up the house of anyone who works with the Americans," declared one slogan near the Samarra police station.
In some towns, residents have insisted that guerrillas should be called mujaheddin, an Islamic term for fighters, rather than fedayeen, the term used by the former government. Denunciations of collaborators are typically made in religious terms, rather than to signify a betrayal of Saddam's government.
Even if the guerrilla networks are still driven by Baath Party financing and contacts — as many U.S. military officials contend — the recruitment that is key to keeping the campaign alive does not always glorify Saddam.
"Saddam Hussein is behind all our problems," said Khaled Kirtani, whose brother was killed in a July attack on U.S. forces in Khaldiya. "The young people are waking up," he added. "They're not Baathists, they're not party members. They did it for God. When they saw the Americans come, raid the houses, steal from the people, they didn't accept it."
[end]
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/18/2003 7:36 AM (GMT -6) | | From the Pioneer Planet website:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/contact_us/terms_of_use/
Terms of Use
We welcome you to our site. We ask that you review these Terms of Use, which are intended to constitute a binding license agreement that conditions your use of this site ("Agreement"). We have tried to avoid unnecessary legal verbiage. Our goal is to protect our rights in order to provide you with access to the free content available at this site. If you do not wish to be bound by this Agreement after you have read it, please leave the site. If you remain on this site, or return thereafter, you agree to be bound by this Agreement.
1. Responsible conduct. You agree to act responsibly at this site and to treat other visitors with respect.
2. Limited License/ Copyright and Intellectual Property Law Restrictions. Except for public domain material, the content on this site is protected by intellectual property laws, including U.S. copyright laws. You are hereby granted a non-exclusive license to use the material at this site ("Content") while connected to this site (including, where available, to email individual stories to friends directly from this site). You are also granted a limited license to print one copy of any Content posted at the site, but only for your personal use. Except as expressly provided above, all rights are reserved. Among other things, except to the extent required for the limited purpose of reviewing material on our site, electronic reproduction, adaptation, distribution, performance or display is prohibited. Changes to or deletion of author attribution or copyright notices are prohibited. Commercial use of any of the Content is strictly prohibited. Use of any of our trademarks as metatags on other web sites also is strictly prohibited. You may not display this website in frames (or any of the Content via in-line links) without our express written permission, which may be requested by contacting us through our feedback form. You may, however, establish ordinary links to our site without our written permission.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/18/2003 8:03 AM (GMT -6) | | Greetings, Laika:
F.Y.I.:
Newspaper and/or journal articles; and/or 'experpts' of documents (pertaining to innumerable issues and/or topics) are posted on this site very, very frequently -- by countless people.
You never objected when the articles were pro-war.
Why do you object now??
Peace and blessings,
<><
Laika wrote:
quote:
DLW and Mayflower, I do have access to news online. I see no need to continually repost news stories here. For one reason, you may be violating copyright laws.
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 12/18/2003 8:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
Greetings, Laika:
F.Y.I.:
Newspaper and/or journal articles; and/or 'experpts' of documents (pertaining to innumerable issues and/or topics) are posted on this site very, very frequently -- by countless people.
You never objected when the articles were pro-war.
Why do you object now??
You're right, I've never objected to entire articles being posted continually, day after day until now. Whether they were pro-war, anti-war, pro-calvin, anti-calvin, pro-vanilla, pro-chocolate, whatever. And you're not the main offender, DLW is. And I've probably done it myself once or twice. But the cup just ran over.
You are violating copyright law AND are NOT engaging in any kind of discussion.
inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/18/2003 10:18 AM (GMT -6) | | So, don't you think it's possible that you're over-reacting a bit?
It "feels" like you want to censor those who disagree with you on the war in Iraq.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Laika wrote:
quote:
You're right, I've never objected to entire articles being posted continually, day after day until now. Whether they were pro-war, anti-war, pro-calvin, anti-calvin, pro-vanilla, pro-chocolate, whatever. And you're not the main offender, DLW is. And I've probably done it myself once or twice. But the cup just ran over.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 12/18/2003 3:14 PM (GMT -6) | |
Greetings, Laika:
What, exactly, is your purpose in all this?
Do you realize that nearly everyone here (i.e., yes, including you) has, at one time or another...
"re-posted" assorted writings, conference papers, newspaper articles, internet photographs, cartoons, "forwarded" material that (in retrospect), probably shouldn't have been forwarded; magazine articles, poetry, artwork or drawings; or, an antimated signature line; journal articles, excerpts from books, etc., etc., etc., on the Christus Victor Ministries discussion board -- that might possibly infringe upon a copyright law??
I'm not defending the tendency for "us" to post such material on discussion boards; nor am I claiming to be without fault.
What I am saying is:
NO ONE here has set out to cause harm; and,
NO ONE here is comfortable with a fellow member of the discussion board assuming the role of "copyright" police.
Chill, Brother.
You're beginning to make everyone a little frightened.
NO ONE will feel comfortable posting -- for fear that you may start searching the archives for their "sinful" posts.
Why are you casting stones?
Are you certain that you and you alone -- are without sin??
Truly.
Let it go.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Mayflower wrote:
quote:
So, don't you think it's possible that you're over-reacting a bit?
It "feels" like you want to censor those who disagree with you on the war in Iraq.
Peace & blessings,
<><
Lakia wrote:
quote:
From the Pioneer Planet website:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/contact_us/terms_of_use/
Terms of Use
We welcome you to our site. We ask that you review these Terms of Use, which are intended to constitute a binding license agreement that conditions your use of this site ("Agreement"). We have tried to avoid unnecessary legal verbiage. Our goal is to protect our rights in order to provide you with access to the free content available at this site. If you do not wish to be bound by this Agreement after you have read it, please leave the site. If you remain on this site, or return thereafter, you agree to be bound by this Agreement.
1. Responsible conduct. You agree to act responsibly at this site and to treat other visitors with respect.
2. Limited License/ Copyright and Intellectual Property Law Restrictions. Except for public domain material, the content on this site is protected by intellectual property laws, including U.S. copyright laws. You are hereby granted a non-exclusive license to use the material at this site ("Content") while connected to this site (including, where available, to email individual stories to friends directly from this site). You are also granted a limited license to print one copy of any Content posted at the site, but only for your personal use. Except as expressly provided above, all rights are reserved. Among other things, except to the extent required for the limited purpose of reviewing material on our site, electronic reproduction, adaptation, distribution, performance or display is prohibited. Changes to or deletion of author attribution or copyright notices are prohibited. Commercial use of any of the Content is strictly prohibited. Use of any of our trademarks as metatags on other web sites also is strictly prohibited. You may not display this website in frames (or any of the Content via in-line links) without our express written permission, which may be requested by contacting us through our feedback form. You may, however, establish ordinary links to our site without our written permission.
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