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Sahid
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   Posted 6/10/2006 3:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Why aren't there more stories of desparate and dying people who Jesus refuses to help in the gospels? If the general and the battlefield conception is accurate, then why isn't it found in the teachings of Jesus? Or is it? The woman with the issue of blood seems to directly contradict it. In that story it's as though Jesus has power that is released purely by the faith of the needy person. Where is the story of a needy person being denied help that the warfare view would expect?


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 6/10/2006 4:04 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not following you, Zach. I don't necessarily hold to all of the warfare view, but I'm not sure why it "expects" a needy person to be denied help by Christ incarnate.


 

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Sahid
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   Posted 6/10/2006 4:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Isn't the idea that God sometimes says no to our prayers for reasons we don't understand? I don't recall that happening in the gospels.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 6/10/2006 4:55 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK, I see where you're coming from. I'm not defending the warfare view, per se, but I would say that the woman with the issue believed that Jesus was the messiah and that he was to give sight to the blind, deliverance, etc. Jesus said he was there for that very reason. He likened the days of the Son of Man (the incarnation, I would assume) to the presence of the kingdom, itself (I'm a premillenialist). Thus, her faith coincided with God's ACTUAL WILL. Thus, her ASKING was IN FAITH of the TRUE STATE OF AFFAIRS--hence, it was granted, accordingly.
 
I don't know any other way to explain it. Because so many people ask God for things and don't receive them--including me!:-)  And if I remember correctly, Jesus even said that some did not receive because of their lack of faith. And he said things like "your FAITH has saved thee." So faith seems to be relevant to the asking and receiving that went on during his ministry.


 

Post Edited (jefscott) : 6/10/2006 5:06:49 PM (GMT-5)

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JEE
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   Posted 6/10/2006 9:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
On thing I have come to see more clearly as of late is that in addition to the possible answers of "Yes," "No," and "Wait," God also may sometimes answer our prayers with "Pray harder!" That is, the effectual FERVENT prayer of a righteous person avails much.

Whenever anyone asks me why not everybody seems to get their prayers answered, besides the above four reasons, I just say I honestly don't know why.


 

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Similitude
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   Posted 6/10/2006 9:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Yeah, John. I would say that at least three things at least are mentioned in the bible. The consistency with the will of God, faith, and fervency. In that sense, I doubt that a purely warfare view could account for all the issues. But I'm not sure any warfare view adherent would claim that it does.


 

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Tastic
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   Posted 7/26/2006 5:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Does God play chess?
Well, that is not an original thought, but if you bear with me, I do have something original.

I am thinking about this battle between God and Satan, mentioned in Rev 20.
But this battle has been going on for "ever".
What I want to illustrate is how and when the fortunes of battle turned:

Here are my thoughts on the battle.:
Throughout the scripture, throughout time, the battle between God and Satan rages.
Shots and volleys are fired. A response is made.
There are Clever manipulations by the 2 greatest minds in the universe.
And what we have is mankind as the pawns in the Big game of Chess. This is not to belittle the war, but to illustrate it.There is probably nothing more serious in your life or mine than this war.
This Post is serious. If you want a dog story , turn off now...X.

The battle is well under way, between Satan and God
No pushover, not easily defeated,Satan has been at it and kept it up over countless time, and maybe before time began:

Here are some examples on record in the Bible :
Satan had an early victory over Adam and Eve, where he was actually represented by the serpent).
Gods victory over the serpent was to make it to crawl on its belly forever.

Gods victory/response was also to deal with Adam and Eve.
Eves punishment was that her desire would be to her husband and to have pain in childbirth. Maybe we can explore that sometime...
And Adam's punishment, was death, spiritual death. Adams death is for all men/mankind

Satan then has a victory over mankind, where he interferes in mankind and animal kind such that God wishes he had never created them.

Gods victory over Satans interference: Noahs flood

Satans response to Noahs flood; Evil persists in the world after the flood.
God reduces mans lifespan to 70 at some stage.

Satans influence of Babylon? Language and morals are rife.
Gods destroys the tower of Babel

Satans influence over Israel thru Egypt
Gods destruction of Egypt by the Red Sea

Enemies of Israel ?
Destruction of enemies

Satan causes man to be tainted and sinful …
God provides a sacrificial lamb

Satan cause disbelief
God raises up prophets

Satan raises up prophets
God defeats Satans prophets by ridicule

Gods prophets forecast the future
Satans prophets fail

Satan causes Israel to want a king
God raises a pure boy, David to defeat Goliath and become king of Israel

Satan causes David to sin with Bathsheba
God forgives David and provides a lineage to Jesus

God raises wise men such as Solomon
Satan puts pride in Solomons heart

God provides Job as the perfect man
Satan attempts to destroy Job by his love of his wife and children: He has Jobs wife say curse God and die. He has his children die
God wins thru Job

Satan has Israel continually sin
God provides the means of cleansing

*********************

God sends the Christ to save the world from sin
Satan sends the anti Christ to confuse men

God provides scripture for edification
Satan provides literature for destruction

God provides for a new heaven and a new earth
Satan battles with God

God defeats Satan and defeats him .
God in his mercy releases Satan.
God has to re capture Satan.


Notice how after the advent of Christ as Saviour, at the ****** above, the battle has changed direction from Satan attacks, God defends,
To God provides, Satan defends?



What is important here , is, that when God as Christ makes the ultimate sacrifice and becomes man, Satan cannot defeat God through man any more.
The direction of the battle changes at that point, after which God regains the initiative.

The advent of Christ is not ho-hum. It is the point at which Satan forever loses the war.
There will be victories (Rev 20)
But the loss to Satan is forever.
And this is because of Jesus our Saviour. OUR SAVIOUR.

Checkmate


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