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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/17/2004 1:37 PM (GMT -6) |   |
.
These Weapons of Mass Destruction
cannot .. cannot .. cannot .. cannot .. cannot ...be displayed
http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
===========================
Peace & blessings,
<>< | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/17/2004 7:38 PM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Honorman wrote:
Any sign of intelligence is not being displayed here...
We are in agreement on that.
Excerpt:
....."The Carnegie report, entitled "WMD in IRAQ: Evidence and Implications,"concludes that Bush Administration "officials misrepresented [the] threat from Iraq's WMD and ballistic missiles programs over and above intelligence findings." .....
ARTICLE CONTINUED HERE:
1-16-04
WMD: Goodbye to all that
http://www.workingforchange.com/printitem.cfm?itemid=16291
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/18/2004 3:49 PM (GMT -6) | |
Greetings, Honorman:
I am sorry if you're having a bad day; however, it does not further your cause to respond with harsh or silly words.
Peace and blessings
to you...
<><
quote:
honorman wrote:
Bad propaganda is bad propagnda, Mayflower, which is all you ever seem to put forth. It certainly would be nice if you actually had an opinion of your own, rather than posting all the cr*p you do. You know, actually put forth an opinion in your own words, rather simply post other people's stuff all the time. Maybe the concept is too much for you.
quote:
honorman wrote:
By the way, Working Asserts is, by and large, a leftist organization, so one would expect such one-sided opinions. I would take the time to refute it, but why bother, May? You never told the time to answer all the questions asked of you as to why we shouldn't have gone into Iraq, so it would be a waste of my time. Sort of a "pearl before swine," kind of thing...if you know what I mean.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 1/19/2004 7:57 AM (GMT -6) | | HD,
What makes propaganda bad?
If anything the post and Mayflowers posts bear the common theme of reminding everybody that the BushAdmin did over-emphasize the direct threat Iraq posed to the US and GBritain.
Now, the fact that this happened is a moot point. Its been pretty much corroborated by statements made from the BushAdmin themselves, though spun differently.
So if there should be a debate it should be over the meaning and significance of this. However, given that the US public generally has a rather severe Attention-Deficit-Disorder, I do not fault people for seeking to remind others of what has happened and should be under debate in this coming year.
However, it is a trite propaganda technique to just say that what someone else has posted is bad propaganda, dismissing the real facts that their propaganda is pointing towards as signicant.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 1/19/2004 2:31 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
DLW, it is convenient for those who critise Bush to forget that everyone, Russia, France, Germany, The UN, ALL THOSE WHO opposed going into Iraq (and, of course, you and May here), believed there were weapons of mass destructions. Go back and read the papers. it was never within the debate whether or not he had them. No one ever questioned that. It was rather whether we should go in. Everyone believed they were there, so if Bush overemphasised that aspect of the mission it wasn't something that everyone didn't believe to begin with. It is very easy to have selective memory when you disagree with someone.
As I recall from the "theory of war" that I posted
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2401&SearchTerms=,theory,war
, while people talked about inspections for WMDS, those that understood knew that what was really at stake was whether or not there would be a regime-change or not. Int'l Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice Doggy" while you reach for a rock. Likewise, the int'l debate may have purported itself to be about WMDs, but it was understood that Iraq didn't pose a direct threat to the US.
Now, if you want to contest this interpretation, that is fine, but the analysis of the data shows that we had compelling evidence that showed that Iraq did not pose a threat to our own security.
quote:
I expect better from you, DLW, the academic... Then again, maybe your extreme anomosity towards Bush clouds your memory.
May, you can hide behind your piety if you want. Thats your choice.
Finally, so as not to have to respond to odd minority, I am using the term "ALL" as in all the major players. I am sure someone out there didn't believe, but there always is.
Finally, finally, since we disagree, I'll leave you two to your agreements.
Its not just a matter of disagreement, but rather adjudication over the facts...
I think several links have been posted that provide evidence as to what we did in fact know.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/19/2004 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | |
*Honorman:
Instead of continually judging others --
practice a new mindset by repeating daily:
..."I will learn to walk well
with those who disagree with me ... "
--------------
*See:
• Blessed are the peacemakers..... Christus Victor Ministries Discussion http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1906
ALSO SEE:
• Repenting of Religion -- Christus Victor Ministries Discussion
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2993
============================================================
*Excerpted (in part) from:
• Martin Luther King, Jr. -- Christus Victor Ministries Discussion
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3008
.
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/20/2004 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | |
Greetings, Tigress...
To be truthful -- it's exhausting to wonder at what moment honorman may
suddenly lash out.
Yes -- DLW and I express political opinions that honorman (and, Laika) disagree with. So?
POINT:
It is not ethical to attempt to "silence" (or, control) dissenting voices through
force, or coercion.
If we allow such methods become the "standard," the door is opened to all manner of evil. What, then, is unacceptable?
No, it's not necessary re-hash the the specific issues.
They know the issues.
However, should we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, come against such behavior when we recognize that it has become a pattern, and is truly hurting people?
Yes, I genuinely feel that we should.
In a sense, it's about "boundaries."
We object to this treatment; just as others have objected when they were subjected to the same unjust treatment.
Therefore, I (lovingly) suggest that honorman (and, yes, Laika, also) reflect upon
the "Food for Thought" in the thread entitled, REPENTING OF RELIGION.
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2993
If we have an open heart, each of us can find much-needed
growth there...
Peace & blessings,
<><
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 1/20/2004 9:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower
Greetings, Tigress...
To be truthful -- it's exhausting to wonder at what moment honorman may
suddenly lash out.
Yes -- DLW and I express political opinions that honorman (and, Laika) disagree with. So?
POINT:
It is not ethical to attempt to "silence" (or, control) dissenting voices through
force, or coercion.
If we allow such methods become the "standard," the door is opened to all manner of evil. What, then, is unacceptable?
No, it's not necessary re-hash the the specific issues.
They know the issues.
However, should we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, come against such behavior when we recognize that it has become a pattern, and is truly hurting people?
Yes, I genuinely feel that we should.
In a sense, it's about "boundaries."
We object to this treatment; just as others have objected when they were subjected to the same unjust treatment.
Therefore, I (lovingly) suggest that honorman (and, yes, Laika, also) reflect upon
the "Food for Thought" in the thread entitled, REPENTING OF RELIGION.
http://gregboyd.org/gbfront/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2993
If we have an open heart, each of us can find much-needed
growth there...
Peace & blessings,
<><
Geez, Mayflower! Just be the bigger person for once and accept rebuke. You can express your opinions without insulting someone. Your position may be correct - and it may not be. It's enforced only when you express it without such obvious contempt for those who disagree with you.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World" | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/20/2004 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | |
quote:
Tigress wrote:
Geez, Mayflower! Just be the bigger person for once and accept rebuke.....
Greetings, Tigress:
Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. If not, I apologize.
My point is:
What gives us (i.e., you, me, honorman, or anyone else..) the AUTHORITY to judge or "rebuke"? I'm not implying that we aren't ALL GUILTY of this offense; what I'm trying to say is that when we step into this realm, our "human qualities" render us "less" loving than what we would hope to be.
Peace & blessings.
<><
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/20/2004 10:07 AM (GMT -6) | | | DLW, nice try, but your response is irrelevant to the discussion. | | Back to Top | | |
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 1/20/2004 2:10 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by honorman
DLW, nice try, but your response is irrelevant to the discussion.
Why is it irrelevant? What discussion?
I thought we were contesting what was known about WMDs prior to the BushAdmin's push for regime change in Iraq and whether or not their campaign and the UN Debate really presumed their existence.
Now, I can see you dismissing the link I gave as not valid. Although, it is a Bush apologists thoughts on the matter who shows some understanding of the issues/power-plays at hand.
I could go into it more, but given how the majority seems to have accepted the notion that WMDs were over-emphasized based on countless posts made and stuff read elsewhere, I think the burden of proof may be on you.
My point was that the fact that the US and UN's debate centered on WMDs doesn't mean that there was substantial evidence of WMDs.
This is secondary to whether or not a regime-change was justified, but it does cast light on the BushAdmin's leadership ability/style and is relevant for this coming years election-year debate.
dlw
Tigress,
Um, this has not been just an exchange of insults.
pick your battles wisely.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/20/2004 5:23 PM (GMT -6) | | | If I have to explain it to you, DLW, then...perhaps you should reread what I wrote and then read how you changed the subject to regime change. Then think it over very slowly in a quiet place. Focus. on. the. subject. at. hand. | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 1/22/2004 6:44 AM (GMT -6) | |
TO: Tigress
I sincerely thank you, Sister.
Your 'spirt of reconciliation' is deeply appreciated.
Again,thank you...
Peace & blessings,
<><
DLW wrote:
quote:
Tigress,
Um, this has not been just an exchange of insults.
pick your battles wisely.
dlw
Tigress wrote: quote:
You're probably right.
I'm sorry Mayflower and Honorman.
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DLW
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 2457
| Posted 1/30/2004 8:45 AM (GMT -6) | | I just wanted to post really quick, as I still am holding to my self-imposed exile, an apology to Honor-Dude. There does seem to be some support that the problem of Iraqi WMDs was a matter of misinformation that many many may have accepted. And so his previous posts, perhaps, held more weight than I initially acknowledged.
Although, there should be an independent commission, as Kay prescribes, to set this to rest.
dlw
Niebuhr thought that sustained moral energy in politics depended on religion's power to mobilize reason along with self-transcending love. The prophetic tradition, meanwhile, gave Jews and Christians some protection against the temptation to identify their social causes with God's will. Lincoln's second inaugural address expressed the prophetic insight, "The almighty has His own purposes." | | Back to Top | | |
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honorman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1137
| Posted 1/30/2004 9:05 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, DLW (I too am attempting an exile, though perhaps not as successful as yours seems to be). I want to add though that what does this say about the state of intelligence in general if so many believed what was false. Kind of scary, huh?
Have fun on your vacation  | | Back to Top | | |
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