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mindofchrist
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 4
| Posted 1/26/2004 4:06 AM (GMT -6) |   | THE REALITY OF SPIRITUAL WARFARE
Ephesians 6:10-12
War is a fact of life -- the US has been involved in many different conflicts including the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, World Wars 1 and 2, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf Wars and literally hundreds of other conflicts throughout our history as a nation. Some of you have fought for your country in this way and know war firsthand. Those who are engaged in military conflict have no doubt who their enemies are, have a plan to defeat them, and are trained to do battle.
But there is another battle being waged all around us in the spiritual realm. Unfortunately, those engaged in spiritual warfare most often do not know who their enemies are, have no plan for victory, and have little, if any, training. There has been a war going on since before the fall of Satan that many are not even aware of, and I want to begin changing that today.
Paul gives us this instruction about spiritual warfare that we need to take to heart.
A final word: Be strong with the Lord's mighty power. Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies and tricks of the Devil. For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:10-12
5 BASIC TRUTHS:
These five basics truths are simply an introduction to what we will be learning together over this month about spiritual warfare. I want to spend this time today because I doubt that most of you have ever had any teaching in this area, and we really need to start with the fundamentals.
1. There Is An Invisible World That Is Just As Real As The Visible World
I think even those of us who are the most conservative believers tend to accept as reality only those things that we can see, hear, touch, smell, or taste. The Bible sitting at my desk is real, the clothes on my back are real, and the roast in the oven is real. I know that they are real, because I can experience them with the senses God has given me. But when we begin to talk about that which is invisible, those things that cannot be seen, heard, touched, smelled, or tasted, we tend to think that those things are not real, or somehow at a lesser level of reality than the visible world. Nothing could be further from the truth:
For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms. Ephesians 6:12
While we exist in this present visible world, we also exist simultaneously in the unseen world that Paul describes here. The unseen world is described as the place where evil beings exist, but it is also the place Christ, and all believers exist.
God...has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we belong to Christ. Ephesians 1:3b
This is the same mighty power that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God's right hand in the heavenly realms Ephesians 1:19b-20
For he raised us from the dead along with Christ, and we are seated with him in the heavenly realms all because we are one with Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6
Beyond this world of our senses is the unseen world where all that is of a spiritual nature dwells -- both good and evil -- and it is in this invisible world that spiritual warfare takes place -- it is in this unseen world that we fight against the principalities and powers that seek to do us harm.
2. We Are Involved In An Invisible War, A Cosmic Conflict That Has Eternal Implications
The Bible tells us that once Daniel had been praying to God and not receiving an answer to his prayer -- an angel came to him and explained the delay in terms of spiritual warfare:
Then he said, "Don't be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you began to pray for understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your request has been heard in heaven. I have come in answer to your prayer. But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia. Daniel 10:12-13
There is much here we do not understand, but what is very obvious is that a spiritual war was taking place between these spirits and angels. This reveals that in the world which is unseen by us there is a conflict going on, a conflict of the ages between good and evil, light and darkness, God and Satan. It reveals that there are satanic forces and heavenly forces. And it reveals that we are smack dab in the middle of the whole thing.
Once Elisha and his servant were confronted with the army of King Aram which had surrounded the city. The servant saw the chariots of the enemy and began to despair.
"Ah, my lord, what will we do now?" he cried out to Elisha. "Don't be afraid!" Elisha told him. "For there are more on our side than on theirs!" Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes and let him see!" The LORD opened his servant's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire. 2 Kings 6:15b-17
God revealed to them that He was ready to do battle on their behalf from the world that was unseen with human eyes. The spiritual battle that we are in is no less real than it was for Daniel, or Elisha, or any of God's people down through the ages.
Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4
Maybe you are reading this today and you are not in a relationship with Christ, or perhaps you have trouble even understanding what I am writing about. Or maybe you once felt close to God and have been straying away. It just might be that you are engaged in a spiritual war that you are not even aware of and Satan is blinding your mind to the truth. Those of us who are in Christ are here to battle, not those of you who are not Christians, but the Satanic presence that is keeping you from understanding.
We are human, but we don't wage war with human plans and methods. We use God's mighty weapons, not mere worldly weapons, to knock down the Devil's strongholds. With these weapons we break down every proud argument that keeps people from knowing God. With these weapons we conquer their rebellious ideas, and we teach them to obey Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5
It is quite obvious that God is calling His church to engage Satan in warfare so that we will be strong in the Lord and will be able to break satanic strongholds. Our weapons are not of this world, are not visible, but are unseen weapons like prayer, the Word of God, and other things that we'll look at in further lessons. The decision that we make today, as to whether we will or will not begin to take up the weapons of our warfare has eternal implications for those who are not yet in a relationship with Christ. We need to begin by honestly considering that some of the struggles, relational conflicts, and misunderstandings about God are caused by satanic opposition.
3. Our Foe Is Formidable And His Goal Is To Destroy Us And Discredit The Cause of Christ
A few weeks ago my favorite football team, the Kansas City Chiefs, played the Minnesota Vikings. I thought the Chiefs would walk onto the field and clean house. I have a feeling the Chief's players were thinking the same thing -- they weren't taking their opposition seriously, and as a result they got spanked.
A similar problem comes when Christians underestimate the power of our enemy. While we don't want to give him more power than he really has, we make a huge mistake if we think he and his demonic army have no power at all.
Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the Devil, your great enemy. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for some victim to devour. 1 Peter 5:8
Satan is a present reality in our lives whether we like it or not. He wants nothing more than to destroy our faith, take away our credibility, and lead us to stumble into sin. We have to be prepared for his attacks, and we need to show him some level of respect as far as his abilities are concerned.
The Archangel Michael, who went to the mat with the Devil as they fought over the body of Moses, wouldn't have dared level him with a blasphemous curse, but said simply, "No you don't. God will take care of you!" ¡V Jude 9 (Message)
This is a remarkable section of Scripture that doesn't give us as many details as I would like, but it does shed some light on how we should treat Satan. Satan is a fallen creature and an avowed enemy of God, yet Michael the archangel, when disputing about the body of Moses, wouldn't dare say anything that would impugn the dignity of Satan. In a sense we could say that he respected his position and his power. We would be foolish to do anything less -- I've seen these people on TV saying they rebuke the devil -- it is pure idiocy to think they can do something that the archangel Michael wouldn't dare do.
4. We Must Respect Our Foe, But Not Fear Him -- Become Acutely Aware Of His Methods, But Not Be Preoccupied By Them
Unless you've been holed up in a closet somewhere you have had to have seen the many retired military men and women on the TV news telling us about all the different strategies and schemes of the Iraqis and various terrorist groups. They have computer generated models and illustrations that help us to understand what is going on in the way and how our men and women can overcome. It's not that the United States went into this battle with the thought of losing, but they did go in with a level of respect for the enemy and spent much time and poured over much intelligence as they planned their battle strategy. We need to do something very similar as we engage in spiritual warfare.
Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies and tricks of the Devil. Ephesians 6:11
Once Paul agreed to forgive a brother along with the Corinthian church...so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are very familiar with his evil schemes. 2 Corinthians 2:11
Like Paul, we need to be aware of Satan's tactics if we are going to win the war. Let's look at four helpful ways we can become aware:
1. Satan's Names Reveal His Tactics
*Satan (adversary)
*Devil (slanderer)
*Lucifer (son of the morning)
*Beelzebub (prince of demons)
*Belial (without profit)
*Evil one
*Tempter
*Prince of this world
*Accuser of the brethren
*Representations include a Serpent, a Dragon, an Angel of Light.
2. Satan Attacks God's Program, The Church, By...
*False philosophies - Col. 2:8
*False religions - 1 Cor. 10:19
*False ministers - 2 Cor. 11:14-15
*False doctrine - 1 John 2:18
*False disciples - Matt. 13
*False morals - 2 Thess. 2:7
3. Satan Attacks God's People By . . .
*Directing governments - Dan. 10:13
*Deceiving men - 2 Cor. 4:4
*Destroying life - Heb. 2:14
*Persecuting the saints - Rev. 2:10
*Preventing service - 1 Thess. 2:18
*Promoting schisms - 2 Cor. 2:10-11
*Planting doubt - Gen. 3:1-2
*Provoking sin and Anger - Eph. 4:26-27
*Pride - 1 Tim. 3:6; Worry - Matt. 13:22; Self-reliance - 1 Chron. 21:1; Discouragement - 1 Pet. 5:6-8; Worldliness - 1 John 2:16; Lying - Acts 5:3; Immorality - 1 Cor. 5:1-2
*Producing sects/cults - 1 Tim. 4:1
4. Satan's Power Is Limited
*He is created, therefore not omniscient or infinite
*He can be resisted by the Christian - James 4:7
*God places limitations on him - Job 1:12
Balance and wisdom are crucial in our assessment of spiritual opposition. To assign too much or too little credit to the reality of demonic activity is to error greatly.
5. As Believer's In Christ, We Do Not Fight For Victory, We Fight From Victory. In Christ's Power We Are Invincible!
As Operation Iraqi Freedom raged, Mohammed al-Sahhaf, Iraq's Minister of Information, daily refuted clear evidence that Iraq was losing the war. On April 6, after coalition forces seized Baghdad's Saddam Airport, renamed it Baghdad International Airport, started flying planes in, and ventured into Baghdad itself, the Miami Herald quoted al-Sahhaf saying, "We butchered the force present at the airport." On April 7, after U.S. troops penetrated central Baghdad and stormed Saddam's Republican Palace, the Washington Post quoted al-Sahhaf saying, "There is no presence of the American columns in the city of Baghdad at all. We besieged them, and we killed most of them." Referred to as Baghdad Bob by the media, his efforts to explain away coalition force victories as illusions were comical.
In the same way, our spiritual enemy is already defeated at the cross of Christ, yet he continues to hurl out lies, insults, and condemnation at the saints. We fight a very real battle against a very real enemy, but we need to know without a doubt that our victory over him is assured. We do not fight for victory, we fight from victory.
Let me quickly run a few scriptures past you that show that even though we are presently engaged in battle, our future victory is written about as if it has already taken place ¡V it is written that way because our victory is sure.
"The time of judgment for the world has come, when the prince of this world will be cast out." John 12:31
(God) canceled the record that contained the charges against us. He took it and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ's cross. In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross of Christ. Colossians 2:14-15
But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won your fight with these false prophets, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world. 1 John 4:4
For every child of God defeats this evil world by trusting Christ to give the victory. And the ones who win this battle against the world are the ones who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:4-5
In a classic "Twilight Zone" episode from 1960, an American on a walking trip through central Europe gets caught in a raging storm. Staggering through the blinding rain, he chances upon an imposing medieval castle. It's a hermitage for a brotherhood of monks. The reclusive monks reluctantly take him in. Later that night, the American discovers a cell with a man locked inside. An ancient wooden staff bolts the door. The prisoner claims he's being held captive by the "insane" head monk, Brother Jerome and he pleads for the American to release him. The prisoner's kindly face and gentle voice win him over. The American confronts Brother Jerome, who declares that the prisoner is actually none other than Satan, "the father of lies," held captive by the Staff of Truth, the one barrier he cannot pass. This incredible claim convinces the American that Jerome is indeed mad. As soon as he gets the chance, he releases the prisoner who immediately transforms into a hideous, horned demon and vanishes in a puff of smoke! The stunned American is horrified at the realization of what he has done. Jerome responds sympathetically. "I'm sorry for you, my son. All your life you will remember this night and whom you have turned loose upon the world." "I didn't believe you," the American replies. "I saw him and didn't recognize him," to which Jerome solemnly observes, "That is man's weakness and Satan's strength."
What a true statement that is -- one that I hope we can overcome as we learn of the spiritual warfare that faces us in the days to come.
[This is an edited version of a sermon I preached a couple weeks ago. I thought it might be a good starting point for discussion]
IHS,
Barry
http://www.mindofchrist.net
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Shine
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 1/31/2004 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | AMEN! Amen! The battlefield is in the mind – know the truth and the truth will set you FREE!!!
Smile, God loves you!
Shine | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/31/2004 2:32 PM (GMT -6) | | You know what?
I wonder if we ever really think about what we are saying when we talk about this stuff.
Ok. Let's talk about Satan. What are we talking about? We are talking about a being that, IF existent, has existed for MILLENNIA. We are talking about a being that probably has the power to CREATE planets and destroy stars. We are talking about a being that probably has been to more star systems than we even have record of existing. We are talking about a being that would have seen life rise from the primordial muck as unicellular organisms to what exists now. We are talking about a being that would probably know enough about human physiology, psychology, and behavior to, if he so desired, reduce a human being to something much less...at will. We are talking about a immensely power being that, if testimony rings true, has a cadre of likewise powerful beings at it's command.
And we make this being look like a complete idiot who has nothing better to do than to mess with some measly carbon-based life forms on one little insignificant planet...to try to make them "fall into sin". The great and powerful Satan really gets OFF on messing with poor little Jobs, giving them sores and all...trying to be PETTY and get back at God by way of the hairless apes that God loves.
Do we really think Satan so myopic? So petty? So obviously idiotic? Do we really think that the ChristWork FOOLED Satan in some real way? Is Satan really that dumb? Are we REALLY dumb enough to believe such nonsense?
I went to the Enemy's camp...and I...
took back what he stole from me,
took back what he stole from me,
took back what he stole from me.
He's under my feet!
He's under my feet!
Satan is under my feeeeet!
--From a silly Christian song I remember.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/31/2004 3:48 PM (GMT -6) | | I wanna read it in more detail when I have the time, but from just glancing at it, Barry, I'd say it looks good. Thanks for posting it. I think Mephi rightly questions some of our assumptions about Satan being stupid, weak, and unthreatening. But Satan is after all consummately EVIL, which means whatever intelligence or reasoning abilities he has are skewed and corrupted by evil. That probably counts as something I should think.
Fight the good fight,
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 2/1/2004 3:41 AM (GMT -6) | | Thanks for the welcome back, Ross.
You said:
quote:
For that matter, what about when we are thinking about the God of the universe; IF he exists he is the only truly self-existent being. The one who created all that exists, even this "satan" that Meph is talking about. Aren't we making him look like an idiot by radically loving some measly carbon-based life forms. And then to think that He would try and "form a personal relationship with them." To think that the great and powerful God gets kicks out of unconditionally loving poor little Jobs... OK, you know where I'm going with this.
Hey, you said it. I didn't.  But let's think about something. Tom said (emphasis mine):
quote:
I think Mephi rightly questions some of our assumptions about Satan being stupid, weak, and unthreatening. But Satan is after all consummately EVIL, which means whatever intelligence or reasoning abilities he has are skewed and corrupted by evil. That probably counts as something I should think.
What we basically end up saying here, it seems, is that spiritual (that is, non-corporeal) beings of vast power, intelligence, and influence can be ULTIMATELY susceptible to (or more poignantly, LED by) their emotions. So much so that they fall into utterly irrational behavior. Instead of being masters of their emotions (like Theosynergistic Neuro-Transformation tells us to do. Remember, being "detectives of our brains"?), spiritual beings are actually DRIVEN by their emotions! God actualizes free will...all the while KNOWING the inevitable costs in the history of Creation. Satan promotes a coup against God by trying to draw miniscule human beings "into sin" by eating of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". God's incredible love makes God irrational. Satan's incredible evil makes Satan irrational.
So, are we saying that the entire universe is caught up in a firefight between two powerful, intelligent, yet slightly WACKED OUT,irrational, emotionally driven beings...that they wish to "duke out" on an humble planet called Earth???
Now, before anyone really gets upset, please understand that this IS what the warfare worldview is saying. Just less academically.
Ok. Just try this. Put yourself in the mind of someone who does NOT believe in Christianity. Just for a sec. How does this sound to you? Would YOU go for this?
Think about it.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Iconoclast
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 2/1/2004 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | MephEternal
So, are we saying that the entire universe is caught up in a firefight between two powerful, intelligent, yet slightly WACKED OUT,irrational, emotionally driven beings...that they wish to "duke out" on an humble planet called Earth???
...
Ok. Just try this. Put yourself in the mind of someone who does NOT believe in Christianity. Just for a sec. How does this sound to you? Would YOU go for this?
Iconoclast
Shoot - even as a Christian this sounds to me like a children's story. I certainly don't go for it as literal reality.
Now, once we come to the realization that Satan is metaphorical speech for US (there IS an enemy - and it is US) then this children's story suddenly makes complete sense.
God IS at "war" - He is at "war" to influence us to believe that we are unconditionally loved and thus choose Life rather than Death.
The fundamental problem with most people's interpretation, in my opinion, is that they think of SPIRITUAL war the same as they think of PHYSICAL war. But SPIRITUAL is not simply a higher level of PHYSICALITY - it is a difference in kind. It is about influencing the "enemy" to actually believe that they are unconditionally loved rather than forcing the ENEMY to do what YOU want.
Spiritual war is the exact opposite (in kind) of Physical war. It is not simply Physical war carried out on some higher dimensional plane.
The most powerful way to "fight" this spiritual war is to know the truth. Why? Because the very goal and purpose of this "war" is for us to know the truth - the truth that God unconditionally loves us. Thus, when we know this - the war is won - we have "surrendered" to God's truth about us.
To know the truth is to be set free. Free from what? Free from our own doubt and disbelief - and thus free from the enemy: OURSELVES! The "enemy" IS our own doubt and disbelief. We have found the enemy and it is us.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 2/1/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | mindofchrist
1. Satan's Names Reveal His Tactics
*Satan (adversary)
*Devil (slanderer)
*Lucifer (son of the morning)
*Beelzebub (prince of demons)
*Belial (without profit)
*Evil one
*Tempter
*Prince of this world
*Accuser of the brethren
*Representations include a Serpent, a Dragon, an Angel of Light.
Iconoclast
Let's look at this from the perspective that Satan (the adversary) is US.
*Satan (the adversary) - to stand in an adversarial relationship to God is to be "ha-satan" - a "Satan". Jesus says this explicitly to Peter when Peter resists what Jesus is telling him. To resist God is to be Satan.
*Devil (slanderer) - the ultimate slander is to disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us. It is to believe that God hasn't given us something that he should. This is why Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - they disbelieved that God unconditionally loved them and thought God was holding out on them - that God did not want them to be wise. When we disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us we are slandering God and thus are (in that moment) the Devil.
*Lucifer (son of the morning) - this literally means "light bearer". We are made in the image of God - we are "light bearers". To disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us is to deny the light within us. When we do this we "fall" - and that fall is great as we all know.
*Beelzebub (prince of demons) - when we disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us we slander God, we resist God, we accuse God, we are God's adversary. As we do with God we also do with each other - these two are completely entangled. Thus, this disbelief IS the "prince" (the originator) of all the evil unseen forces that arise (demon literally means "unseen agent").
*Belial (without profit) - our disbelief helps no one - not even ourselves. It is without profit to US and everyone else.
*Evil one - Evil comes from "ra" which has the following meanings:
denotative: noisy
connotative: painful
symbolic: evil
"evil" basically means against the "unified order" that God has created. It is, again, simply resistance to God and God's "unified order". (When God finishes creating on the 6th day He calls it "very good" or literally "of a unified order").
*Tempter - tempter of what? Tempting us to disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us. Our temptation to disbelieve that God unconditionally loves us arises from the "serpent" within us - it arises because we ARE NOT God and we know it - it arises because we are epistemically distant from God - we don't KNOW that God unconditionally loves because we are not "face to face" with God. This is a fundamental requirement of being able to choose against God (when we ARE face to face with God then "every knee shall bow"). And thus arises the inevitable question - "does God really love me?" - "did God say?". When we doubt that God does love me THIS is temptation. When we give into this temptation by acting on our doubt we just crossed the line into DISBELIEF. (To "believe" something is to act on something)
*Prince of this world - Satan (our disbelief, our resistance to God and others) is the prince of this world. You can see it all around us. It is what causes corporate dysfunction. It is what causes family dysfunction. It is what causes religious dysfunction. It is the fundamental root of the dysfunction of our world. And it comes from each of US. Has anyone seen the movie "Mystic River"? This is a movie about how lack of faith in each other and in ourselves is the root cause of our dysfunction. This lack of faith - this disbelief in each other fundamentally comes from our lack of faith - our disbelief in God. Our disbelief is Satan - it is the "Prince of this world".
*Accuser of the brethren - lack of faith in God IS lack of faith in each other. Accusing God IS accusing each other. Adversarialism (resistance) to God IS resistance to each other.
*Representations include a Serpent, a Dragon, an Angel of Light. - this last one says it all. WE are Satan. WE are the "light bearers" - the people in the image of God who, acting out of our own doubt and thus disbelieving that God unconditionally loves us, become serpents and dragons who silently and in mythological proportion destroy ourselves and invite others to destroy themselves. Satan (WE) do not have the power to destroy others - we DO have the power to destroy ourselves - but we only have the power to invite others to destroy themselves. And we do it all the time.
We have found the enemy and it is us.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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John Earp
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 2/1/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
You know what?
I wonder if we ever really think about what we are saying when we talk about this stuff.
Ok. Let's talk about Satan. What are we talking about? We are talking about a being that, IF existent, has existed for MILLENNIA. We are talking about a being that probably has the power to CREATE planets and destroy stars...We are talking about a being that would probably know enough about human physiology, psychology, and behavior to, if he so desired, reduce a human being to something much less...at will.
Hi Meph,
Please tell me you don't believe Satan has creative power, nor the ability to reduce a human being to anything less than human "at will." If you do believe such thing about Satan, may I ask, where in Scripture do you get these ideas?
It just sounds to me like you believe in a Devil that's equal in power to God (if not almost).
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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rossfadeinout
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 428
| Posted 2/2/2004 4:31 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph,
It is great to have you back, your posts are always condusive to discussion.
You said quote:
What we basically end up saying here, it seems, is that spiritual (that is, non-corporeal) beings of vast power, intelligence, and influence can be ULTIMATELY susceptible to (or more poignantly, LED by) their emotions. So much so that they fall into utterly irrational behavior. Instead of being masters of their emotions (like Theosynergistic Neuro-Transformation tells us to do. Remember, being "detectives of our brains"?), spiritual beings are actually DRIVEN by their emotions! God actualizes free will...all the while KNOWING the inevitable costs in the history of Creation. Satan promotes a coup against God by trying to draw miniscule human beings "into sin" by eating of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil". God's incredible love makes God irrational. Satan's incredible evil makes Satan irrational.
So, are we saying that the entire universe is caught up in a firefight between two powerful, intelligent, yet slightly WACKED OUT,irrational, emotionally driven beings...that they wish to "duke out" on an humble planet called Earth???
My question would be "Is love merely an emotion and irrational?" I don't think that you believe this Meph. God IS LOVE (you and I argued that extensively a while back on the "love and freedom in the hereafter" thread) so his love is anything but irrational.
Now in the case of Satan things are different... Sin IS ultimately irrational. But the decision to sin is not unexplainable; it is a choice to put the self in place of God, to be selfish. So God's incredible love doesn't make him irrational, and Satan's actions, while ULTIMATELY irrational, are motivated by his decision to put himself in the place of God and are therefore explainable...
Ross
"Let us remember how common the folly is of going from one faulty extreme into the opposite." -Thomas Reid | | Back to Top | | |
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 2/7/2004 3:39 PM (GMT -6) | | In Christ, we have been exalted to the heavenlies. In Christ, we have dominion over Satan. John 3:3
Shine | | Back to Top | | |
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