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spiderman22
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 2

Posted 2/9/2004 3:59 PM (GMT -6)

I was reading the bible over this last christmas break and I came across some strange passages that sort of confused me. There seems to be a theme in the bible where God uses evil spirits to test us or carry out His will? in 1 Sam 16:14, 23 , 18:10, and 19:9 talk about an "evil spirit from the Lord" tormenting Saul causing Saul to attempt to kill David. In Judges 9:23 it says that God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of shechem, Also in 1 Kings 22:22-23 it talks about the Lord sending a "lying" spirit to put lies in the mouths of the king's advisors. (plus also the story of Job where satan needs God's permission to attack job). There are also the instances of God "hardening peoples hearts" such as pharoah in Gen 7-12 , the king of Hesbon in Deut 2:30 and the enemies of the Israelites in Josh 11:20. These passages seem to point to a God who uses evil to carry out His will. Now this is quite troubling for me since I am of the persuasion that God is above evil and is holy and just. I'm a big fan of james 1:13 where it says that God cannot be tempted nor tempts us but then I go and read something like Deut 13:1-3 where it says that when someone comes to you telling you to worship other gods it is really God testing you. This complicates things a bit.
o.k. so far I have just been doing a lot of babbling but I guess my main question is what do we do with these scriptures? one of the main reasons that I lean more towards open theism is because I couldn't see an all loving God ordaining evil , willing evil on someone. Does God really control the demons and Satan? Also another question could be, Isn't God in his right to do evil to us? He did create hell and says that we are all deserving of this eternal punishment because of our sinful natures. So can we really complain about anything He does to us here on earth since anything that He does to us here is far better than what we deserve in hell? I would like to believe that we do deserve it though God does not delight or will us to suffer evil but I don't know, I'd like to hear some other people's thoughts on the subject. I apologize if you have already talked about this in your other discussions like the one on Job but I was just lazy and didn't want to take the time and go through all of them..(forgive me) and please go easy on me since this is my first posting.
Blessings

"if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know"

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/9/2004 5:58 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Spidey,

The way I understand it is this:

In Thessalonians, Paul said God would "send a strong delusion" on those who reject him in the last days.

In Exodus, we see how God hardened Pharoah's heart, but we also see where the same book says Pharoah hardened his own heart.

This same principle is alluded to in Acts 28:

Act 28:23 And they having appointed him a day, many came to him in his lodging; to whom he expounded, testifying the kingdom of God, and persuading them the things concerning Jesus, both out of the Law of Moses and out of the Prophets, from morning until evening.
24 And some indeed believed the things that were said, others did not believe.
25 And disagreeing with one another, they were let go, Paul saying one word: Well did the Holy Spirit speak through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
26 saying, "Go to this people and say: Hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and not perceive.
27 For the heart of this people was fattened, and they have heard with their ears dully; and they closed their eyes; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
28 Therefore be it known to you that the salvation of God is sent to the nations, and they will hear. 29 And he having said these words, the Jews departed, having much discussion amongst themselves.
30 And Paul remained two years in his own hired house. And he welcomed all who came in to him,
31 proclaiming the kingdom of God, and teaching those things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, with all freedom, and without hindrance.

Note, the divine hardening of these people does not occur until after they reject the gospel. This quote from Isaiah is also referred to in the Gospels by Jesus Christ: Matt 13:14, and John 12:39, John 12:40.

Also alluded to in Romans 1, where because of people's own choice to rebel against God Paul says "therefore God gave them up to a reprobate/depraved mind."

From all the above it seems to me that God does in fact confirm our choices, whether good or evil, and that when one's character becomes completely solidified towards evil in rebellion to God's righteous sovereignty, God reserves the right to use such rebels in a compatibilistic manner. This would include, of course, even sending "an evil spirit" to torment these totally hardened rebels (like King Saul had become when it is said that an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him).

Hope this helps.

John E

P.S.: Welcome to the board.

"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net

borg
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 324

Posted 2/13/2004 9:41 PM (GMT -6)

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (Hebrews 2:8)

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.(Romans 11:28-36)

"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards

spiderman22
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 2

Posted 2/14/2004 10:25 PM (GMT -6)

hey John-
Thank you for responding to my post, I liked what you had to say. I was wondering however, at what point is a man's heart totally solidified? couldn't it be possible for that person to turn to God later in life? could it have been possible for Saul to turn to God later in life? what about the theif on the cross? or other people today that we may know that lived a life of total sin and rejecting God however are now changed christians because of the power of the holy spirit? Also, I would like to ask the question that what would be the problem with God using these evil spirits in other cases other than simply "solidifying" our choices? Could it also be possible for God to use evil spirits in other cases to bring about a greater good in us? possibly bring an evil spirit on us to in a way challenge us or bring us a trial so that we could grow from it?
Also to restate one of my original questions, isn't God "justified" to do evil to us? Don't we deserve eternal punishment? aren't we God's creation? how can we claim that it "isn't fair" of God to use evil spirits? Are we as humans attempting to impose our own sense of justice upon God?

Borg-blessings upon you, thanks for the shout out
and blessings upon you too mr. Earp

Spidey

"if I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know"

John Earp
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715

Posted 2/16/2004 12:19 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by spiderman22

hey John-
Thank you for responding to my post, I liked what you had to say. I was wondering however, at what point is a man's heart totally solidified?

That would be known only to God. I don't think we are privy to such details.

quote:
couldn't it be possible for that person to turn to God later in life? could it have been possible for Saul to turn to God later in life?

I think that Saul had crossed the point of no return spiritually, and I think there is that possibility for anyone pursuing an evil course, by which they "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" (see Romans 1).

quote:
what about the theif on the cross?

Obviously, he had not yet reached the point of no return.

quote:
or other people today that we may know that lived a life of total sin and rejecting God however are now changed christians because of the power of the holy spirit?

Ditto.

quote:
Also, I would like to ask the question that what would be the problem with God using these evil spirits in other cases other than simply "solidifying" our choices?

What I mean is that once we solidify ourselves, God confirms that choice (of ours) and can then use us compatibilistically if he so chooses, and without violating our moral agency (which has been solidified towards evil in this case).

quote:
Could it also be possible for God to use evil spirits in other cases to bring about a greater good in us? possibly bring an evil spirit on us to in a way challenge us or bring us a trial so that we could grow from it?

Interesting questions. I'll have to think about it some, but my first response is yes.

quote:
Also to restate one of my original questions, isn't God "justified" to do evil to us?

If you're asking about God doing moral evil against us (sin), no. The Bible states unequivocally that God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. If you're referring to hell, we only get what we deserve if we end up in hell, and it is morally RIGHTEOUS for God to punish sin in this way.

John

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