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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/29/2004 12:38 AM (GMT -6) |   | Doc-
I tried to summarize the "Carlie" thread here for you but the consensus was it was too one-sided in my own favor. So the best thing to do is not to summarize it and let you read the thread for yourself and form your own opinion.
Glad to have you home.
Tom  | | Back to Top | | |
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shell
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 280
| Posted 2/29/2004 4:52 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by TGB
Doc-
There’s no way you wanna read 36 pages and process it all. And I couldn’t possibly recap it all. We talked about Mephi’s idea of “complicity,” had a fist fight over the parable of the wheat and the tares, and some other stuff. I can’t summarize it all. So let me repost here two posts of mine and then list several pages from that thread we’re like you to read and see if that’s enough to bring you up to speed on the basics of the conversation.
First, from page 6. I first posted the results of some convo Mephi and I had which Mephi totally agreed to. Here is it:
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I would just like to say a little something here. While I appreciate Tom's heart here, and the value he places on Doc's time...I would just like to add that I would like to NOT discourage Doc from reading that entire thread.
The reason behind this is twofold. I feel that it is difficult to represent and accurately recap all that Icon and others have contributed to this thread without creating ANOTHER 36 page thread. Secondly, I feel that SO much has been attributed to Doc and how he would respond throughout that thread. The issue of evil is an issue that Doc has put a lot of time and effort into working through with people and how they view God in the midst of crisis, grieving and evil that has touched their lives and also writing books to answer these questions. This is such a fundamental issue because it affects how we see God. The implications of what is being said throughout this thread are HUGE. I feel that pointing Doc in the direction of just a few pages and the recaps would be taking certain arguments out of context. If I ever thought someone should read an entire thread, it is now, as long as it may be. I just wanted to throw it out there in respect of so many that have contributed a lot of emotion, time and energy into this thread, and for those of us mostly observing who REALLY care about and want to hear Doc's views on this.
just my thoughts, Shell | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/29/2004 7:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah. Go for it, Doc. Shell's right. Go for it.
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 2/29/2004 2:01 PM (GMT -6) | | | TGB, respectfully, you should retitle this thread, "RECAP OF WHAT MEPH AND I SAID ON THE CARLIE THREAD FOR DOC! | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 2/29/2004 2:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Amen.
<><
Shell wrote: quote:
I would just like to say a little something here. While I appreciate Tom's heart here, and the value he places on Doc's time...I would just like to add that I would like to NOT discourage Doc from reading that entire thread.
The reason behind this is twofold. I feel that it is difficult to represent and accurately recap all that Icon and others have contributed to this thread without creating ANOTHER 36 page thread. Secondly, I feel that SO much has been attributed to Doc and how he would respond throughout that thread. The issue of evil is an issue that Doc has put a lot of time and effort into working through with people and how they view God in the midst of crisis, grieving and evil that has touched their lives and also writing books to answer these questions. This is such a fundamental issue because it affects how we see God. The implications of what is being said throughout this thread are HUGE. I feel that pointing Doc in the direction of just a few pages and the recaps would be taking certain arguments out of context. If I ever thought someone should read an entire thread, it is now, as long as it may be. I just wanted to throw it out there in respect of so many that have contributed a lot of emotion, time and energy into this thread, and for those of us mostly observing who REALLY care about and want to hear Doc's views on this.
just my thoughts, Shell
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 2/29/2004 3:05 PM (GMT -6) | | Doc, since you are going to already have enough pages to read on the other thread I will post my comments here to TGB. After seeing the Passion of the Christ movie I am more assured than ever that God is ONLY love and NEVER complicit in evil.
TGBquote:
is it conceivable that wills other than God’s can ever conflict creation such that God cannot conjointly maximize the good of the one and the good of the whole.
Tom, you are making a big mistake in saying that God CANNOT... You guys are limiting God to OUR fallen nature of things. After seeing the movie I believe more than ever that Jesus CHOOSE to LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HIS SHEEP. Jesus laid his life for us so that we could have Satan UNDER our feet. I loved the scene where Jesus' foot crushed the serpents head in the garden! God is NOT trapped by Satan's use of pawns. God does not sacrifice any rook to save the queen and to say so is discrediting everything Christ did for us on the cross. It's this simple evil reigns in the world (for NOW) hence evil happens. God has NOTHING to do with the evil that happens. The cross put an end to the sting in death. The cross gave us back the authority, through the power in the Holy Spirit, over Satan's strategies. Jesus never got caught in a trap of having to play into Satan's hand, in fact he choose his spots of when to talk and when to remain silent -- I find his times of silence interesting. In Luke 4:12 Jesus stated it quite firmly, "It says 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Satan had and has NO power nor authority over Christ.
Here's the thing, WE are stuck/limited in the flesh nature of this sinful world. WE are limited to what we can do in the face of evil. WE are sometimes put into a position where we have to choose the lesser evil (like when the father could only save one of the two drowning boys) BUT God is NOT limited in this same way.
In any event, however one comes to settle the problem of evil and the pain in this world -- God bless them. I work with people who are hurting and I have come to accept and embrace that people do the best they can with the resources they have. Whatever theology makes people feel most comfortable I say HAVE AT IT. No one knows for certain how everything plays out. Doc can give his brilliant input but even in that the case will not be settled. We each must settle this for ourselves. The only thing I know is that when Tom made the statement that God CANNOT ... he was way off. God is ALL powerful. God CAN do ANYTHING!
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Shine
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 24
| Posted 2/29/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | QFT: Beautifully stated!
Hebrews 4:15 "This High Priest of ours understands our weaknesses, for he faced all the temptations we do, yet He did not sin."
Love, Shine | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/29/2004 5:41 PM (GMT -6) | | Springs: TGB, respectfully, you should retitle this thread, "RECAP OF WHAT MEPH AND I SAID ON THE CARLIE THREAD FOR DOC!
Tom: The argument on the table, the hot potatoe, is MY argument. That's what got it started. That's what all the other arguments are designed to shoot down, and that's what we're asking Doc to principally respond to. There just wasn't enough room, Springs, to recap everybody else's argument. It was easier to simply post the hot potatoe and tell Doc which pages to read to find the arguments against it.
If ya'll think this was selfish or prejudiced of me, like I really think Doc is so dumb that I'll trick him into agreeing wiht ME by NOT posting the full text of everybody else's arguments, fine  --I don't really care WHO makes the stinkin summary.
I'm cleaning my summary off the thread. Anybody who wants to summarize the Carlie thread for Doc can be my guest. Sheesh.
Peace,
Tom | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/1/2004 7:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Dear Shine, thank you for your words of encouragement. The verse you posted is encouraging!
BJSquote:
But it easy on the guy. He's obviously put some time and effort into this discussion.
I am beginning to think this board is a very dangerous place to visit. People tend to speak too freely with hurtful words and I myself have been guilty of that. I love in the bible where Jesus was silent -- he was very seletive with his words. Our words have the power to heal or to hurt. Speak softly and slowly. Encourage one another. These are the things I get from the message in the bible. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/1/2004 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Good grief -- Brett, why did you write that?
I was referring to how it appears that in the short time I've been around here there has been a lot of miscommunication going on. The written word, without the physical body language to accompany it, can be hard to interpret. For instance, I am not sure if you are insulting me by writing "good grief" My first impression would be to think it an insult to sharing my own observation but perhaps you meant it differently?
Thanks. | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 3/1/2004 12:29 PM (GMT -6) | | Quest: I fully agree with you on that. I know I (in my various incarnations) have had a problem with that. I try now to step back after reading something and consider how is best to response and how each person may feel about it. I think Jesus always measured his words when speaking.
Just because you feel something doesn't give you the right to express it because other people have rights as well. And it is just as important HOW you say something is just as important as what you say. Many times people feel their honesty is more important than other people's feelings.
This is a very dangerous place. That is why I try (as much as possible) to reframe from discussion on topics such as morality or politics. Many people simply cannot handle such topics in a civil manner (I include my self in that catagory).
NOTE: this is a general statement and is not meant to reflect a judgment on anyone in particular nor on the topic under discussion. Thank you. Have a nice day  | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/1/2004 3:21 PM (GMT -6) | | feelinaholequote:
NOTE: this is a general statement and is not meant to reflect a judgment on anyone in particular nor on the topic under discussion. Thank you. Have a nice day.
This would be a great statement for each of us to attach to each post we make or at least to keep in mind when writing a post. To me a discussion board is about discussing a topic freely with no judgments. To discuss one's own point of view or opinion on the subject without attempting to change anyone else. I come here to read and learn. I come here to share what I've picked up on the road of life with no judgment on anyone in particular nor on the topic.
Great statement, feelinahole! That will be my focus on each post I make from here on out.  | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 3/1/2004 5:25 PM (GMT -6) | | [quote]Originally posted by quest for truth
feelinahole[quote]NOTE: this is a general statement and is not meant to reflect a judgment on anyone in particular nor on the topic under discussion. Thank you. Have a nice day.
(QUEST) {"This would be a great statement for each of us to attach to each post we make or at least to keep in mind when writing a post. To me a discussion board is about discussing a topic freely with no judgments. To discuss one's own point of view or opinion on the subject without attempting to change anyone else. I come here to read and learn. I come here to share what I've picked up on the road of life with no judgment on anyone in particular nor on the topic.}
Great statement, feelinahole! That will be my focus on each post I make from here on out.
(Jo-Anne) Quest, I am a sensitive person by nature and I have found it helpful to remember that this post is about ideas, not people. It is not to be taken personally and I'm assuming that most people here do not know each other personally.
On the whole, I've witnessed people going to lengths to understand each other's point of view, and considering the sensitivity of subjects and the passion with which they've been discussed, I've felt that everyone has done quite well.
Anyway, I hope that helps. I have appreciated your posts. I've found them to be personally encouraging and challenging. So, thanks.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 3/2/2004 4:04 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Annequote:
Quest, I am a sensitive person by nature and I have found it helpful to remember that this post is about ideas, not people. It is not to be taken personally and I'm assuming that most people here do not know each other personally
Thank you. I understand what you're saying by this being about ideas not people. My observation here has been that although being about ideas, people sometimes get hurt by unkind wording of posts. Even though this is about ideas it does not excuse anyone from the command to LOVE. We love with our words as much as with our actions. We are to love EVERYONE and that would include people who we don't know personally. I don't know if you recall but a while back I started a thread for TGB because I felt we had a miscommunication going on. What I want more than any of my ideas being understood is that my words would be loving. So, although we are not to take posts personally, words do have the power to bring life or death; To bring unity or disunity; To bring healing or hurt..... Words, even to cyber folks, can destroy and be lasting. I am really starting to understand why Jesus chose his spots to speak and was selective about the words he chose to use.
Thank you, Jo-Anne, for your loving words of encouragement to me.
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