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Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Let’s solve the problem of evil > Who would pull the lever?

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BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/29/2004 9:49 AM (GMT -6)

Poll time! Big Smile

A train is coming down the tracks and the tracks veer into two different tracks and on the one set of tracks there is one person. On the other set of tracks there are ten people. If it was in your power to make the train go down one track where only the one person would die so that the 10 on the other track would not die, would you pull the lever? Simple question. I don't want to hear about the character of the ten or what not because that's all factored into the question from the get go. Wink

Brandon

"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 2/29/2004 10:28 AM (GMT -6)

Can you guys tell me if you can vote. I seem to be having problems with this poll. Can the admin fix it if I do have a problem?

Brandon

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/29/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6)

The poll is locked. Aren't you the one to lock and unlock it?

Tom

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 2/29/2004 12:24 PM (GMT -6)

I did a search on polls posted during the last 30 days and this didn't even show up. Something's wrong.

Tom

Mayflower
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445

Posted 2/29/2004 3:09 PM (GMT -6)

INSUFFICIENT OPTIONS.

God pulled THE MASTER switch, and de-railed this Poll.
Wink

Peace & blessings,
<><

selah
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210

Posted 2/29/2004 3:26 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower

INSUFFICIENT OPTIONS.

God pulled THE MASTER switch, and de-railed this Poll.

Peace & blessings,
<><

love
selah

"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."

Scout Cloud Lee

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/1/2004 6:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Mayflower

INSUFFICIENT OPTIONS.

God pulled THE MASTER switch, and de-railed this Poll.

Peace & blessings,
<><

Yes. So the mystery does not reside in the hidden purpose as to the reason WHY this event happened. The mystery lies in the complexity of the creation of electronic circuitry and the solidification of my stupidity. Big Smile

Brandon

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/1/2004 6:57 AM (GMT -6)

By the way. So far, it looks like those who would save the ten and have the one killed are winning. Big Smile

Brandon

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 3/1/2004 7:04 AM (GMT -6)

A child is running down some railway tracks and the tracks veer into two different tracks and on the one set of tracks there is one train sitting. On the other set of tracks there are ten trains sitting. If it was in your power to make the child go down one track where only the one train would be destroyed so that the 10 on the other track would not be destroyed, would you pull the lever? Simple question.

Be careful how you answer, your answer will determine how much evil God commits in the universe. Do not go lightly into this decision.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

Wahoo
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142

Posted 3/1/2004 7:25 AM (GMT -6)

Since others are pulling for the ten kids already, I have decided to interceed on behalf of the one. Poor guy! Big Smile

Laika
Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433

Posted 3/1/2004 7:50 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Wahoo

Since others are pulling for the ten kids already, I have decided to interceed on behalf of the one. Poor guy!

Well, while you're interceding for that poor kid, you may not want to stand on the tracks. I'm just saying....

might be a lot of trains headed that way.

inside you the time moves and she don't fade
the ghost in you she don't fade

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/1/2004 8:27 AM (GMT -6)

Two things.

1. Get your own poll. Big Smile

2. See what I said on the "Complicity" thread.

Brandon

feelinahole
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754

Posted 3/1/2004 9:51 AM (GMT -6)

I don't make decisions based on conjecture. No one knows what they will do until they are faced with such a situation. Everything else is simply speculation...

Truth Aficionado
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544

Posted 3/1/2004 9:59 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada

Poll time! A train is coming down the tracks and the tracks veer into two different tracks and on the one set of tracks there is one person. On the other set of tracks there are ten people. If it was in your power to make the train go down one track where only the one person would die so that the 10 on the other track would not die, would you pull the lever? Simple question. I don't want to hear about the character of the ten or what not because that's all factored into the question from the get go.

Your poll is not real clear. It says 1 child or 10 people. If it is 10 adults I could see choosing to save 1 child.

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/1/2004 10:15 AM (GMT -6)

People, persons, person. I said child in the choices, but I said people and person in the moral dilemma. Overall I mean people. If there is still a problem? You might have to pick option #3. Bandit

Brandon

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 3/1/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6)

[quote]Originally posted by BBBCanada

Poll time! Big Smile

(Jo-Anne) How likely is this to ever happen? What is the closest realistic example of this and what is this going to teach us about the Father? By the way, I'd save somebody!

God Bless!
Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

1Heart
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128

Posted 3/1/2004 6:14 PM (GMT -6)

Laika,

Good advice (not standing on train tracks)! It's ok to lay down with your ear on one (that way you'll hear 'em comin!)

This train is bound for glory! Flame2

Jo-Anne

"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."

anewbeginning
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/2/2004 5:31 AM (GMT -6)

www.christianstories.com/stories/bridge.html

Based on a true story? Anyone know the truth?

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 3/2/2004 5:35 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by anewbeginning

www.christianstories.com/stories/bridge.htm

Based on a true story? Anyone know the truth?

anewbeginning,
I opened up that link but it doesn't appear to be for a Christian stories site. Maybe I'm mistaken though - I only glanced at it quickly.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

anewbeginning
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 88

Posted 3/2/2004 5:37 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Tigress

anewbeginning,
I opened up that link but it doesn't appear to be for a Christian stories site. Maybe I'm mistaken though - I only glanced at it quickly.

Sorry, I had a typo in the address, it works now.

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 3/2/2004 6:21 AM (GMT -6)

I read the story, and I probably would have tried to save my child, but who knows? You can't really know what you would do in a certain situation until it happens. But, I'm glad that our Father in heaven chose to sacrifice only His Son to save us all.

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

Laplace
Registered Member

Date Joined Apr 2003
Total Posts : 138

Posted 3/2/2004 11:30 AM (GMT -6)

Easy. I would make sure the level was set so that the train would go down the track where there is only one person. Then I would run and untie that one person before the train ran over them. It takes much less time to untie 1 person than 10.

The question you are asking is essentially a hyperbole of the one asking how much responsibility does one hold for a life. For example:

- Are Germans during Nazi Germany who refused to revolt against the regime just as responsible as those who gassed the Jews? What about the people who constructed the gas chambers?
- Are Islamic clerics responsible for not speaking out against suicide bombers?
- Are we responsible for the deaths of the starving in Africa?

The point is that it is impossible to quantify such ethical decisions because they often do not come down to simple algorithm of "more lives are saved in this manner so..."

This type of flawed thinking is how we justified bombing civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We reasoned, "Well, we'll save more lives this way by not having to invade". Therefore, you could argue that "We really can't blame Osama bin Laden for 9/11 because he was thinking that killing 3,000 civilians would save many more thousands in the long run."

So in this hypothetical example, a person would not really be at any "fault" for doing one or the other since he/she did not cause the train to go down the track or people to be tied up on it either.

"I say we blast the meatbag, Master" -HK-47, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

PhilTheThrill
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 95

Posted 3/2/2004 11:38 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
Originally posted by Laplace

This type of flawed thinking is how we justified bombing civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We reasoned, "Well, we'll save more lives this way by not having to invade". Therefore, you could argue that "We really can't blame Osama bin Laden for 9/11 because he was thinking that killing 3,000 civilians would save many more thousands in the long run."

Well, I think the difference is that WW2 was a struggle of Good vs Evil, in a mostly objective sense. OBL thinks he is morally justified, but I don't think we would agree. So then you have to decide, is there a clear objective ideal of Right and Wrong and which side are you on. The bombing of Japan saved thousands more lives on both sides and helped bring an end to a evil regime. I have no problem saying the U.S. was fighting for a just cause and that such sacrifices were acceptable (though I certainly mourn the death of innocent people).

So it's kind of like you said, it's not just about quantity of life lost, but also about morality of whatever it is you are doing.

Tigress
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252

Posted 3/2/2004 12:01 PM (GMT -6)

I can't believe what I'm hearing! Shock

America was justified in bombing and killing all those people in Japan?? I think more people were probably killed when that happened than would have died had the U.S. fought an actual war with them! I tend to suspect that the American government bombed Japan because they're Asians. I highly doubt they would have done the same thing to white people, like in Germany for example. And I'm white myself so don't start thinking that I'm playing the race card or something!

Anyway, related to this question - I don't see how people can blame the Muslim clergy for the actions of a radical fringe group. That's like blaming all Christians for the actions of a cult calling itself Christian, or even the actions of one particular church or denomination. What could the clergy possibly be expected to do? If they spoke out against the actions of the fringe group, denouncing them as not in line with their religion and its doctrines, what more could you really expect from them?

Tigress

"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."

-Captain Jack Aubrey
"Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World"

BBBCanada
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 3/2/2004 12:03 PM (GMT -6)

I realize that life is not as simple as I portray it in my question. But all I'm asking for is a response to THIS QUESTION(S) by answering a poll. The premise that Tom and Meph Man and BJS and I adhere to is simply that God is IMPLICATED IN EVIL by participating in the systems or structures of the cosmos. But it is A GIVEN or an a priori assumption of the complexity of the situation.

P.S. I'm not big on quantifying of ethical descisions either. But I think the point is missed by simply concentrating on this. Regardless, I would think for all moral people their basic intuition would be to save the ten while having to "sacrifice" the one. Again, it's a simple question at the gut level.

Brandon

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