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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/17/2009 11:00 AM (GMT -6) |   | I'll tell ya this, I'm 49, and if there's anything I regret about my 35 year spiritual journey so far it's having found the Fathers so late in life. I deeply grieve it actually. I feel like my Protestant leaders just ripped me off. But they I realize, they didn't have the Fathers to give me. What do we Protestants have? Well, we place our greatest and most trusted resources on book tables in our Church foyers every Sunday, and who are they? Rick Warren, John McArthur, John Piper, Jack Hayford, Benny Hinn (imagine), James Dobson...all the rest. These are the Fathers of today's church.
I did 4 years at an A/G school and then a masters and I was NEVER asked to read a SINGLE page of ANY Church father from the first 4 centuries. Zip. Zero. Now I'm discovering them when I'm 50 and it pi**es me off.
Tom
"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas Berdyaev | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 12/17/2009 11:20 AM (GMT -6) | | | So... where to begin? What are the top couple reads you'd recommend first? | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/17/2009 11:32 AM (GMT -6) | | |
I'm enjoying Athanasius’s Contra Gentes (“Against the Heathen”) and his On the Incarnation. Both are among his first works and written when he was young (Cont. Gen. probably when he was 22 or so). His On the Incarnation is thought to be a masterpiece of early Christian writing. I guess because I’m interested in the questions I find them fascinating, and something in me wants to CONNECT historically to all the generations of believers who have gone before me. And then Maximus (whatever you can get your hands on); I’ve got pieces of his Ambigua. (“Difficulties,” which are commentaries on earlier Fathers).
I just resent the way my theological education was handled by folks who didn’t feel the need to even consult what the Fathers say.
I don't where the best place to start is, though. I feel like I'm in a Walmart Superstore all by myself.
T
"Man is a person not by nature but by spirit. By nature he is only an individual." Nicolas BerdyaevPost Edited (Tom) : 12/17/2009 10:42:46 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Daniel M
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2009
Total Posts : 263
| Posted 12/17/2009 1:12 PM (GMT -6) | | That's kind of strange. I'm studying Philosophy at a State University, and we read parts of Ignatius' letter to the Ephesians for a philosophy of Religion class (we also read stuff from Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther) as well as a number of writings from Islam and Buddhism.
I can't imagine why a Philosophy program would expose us to more of the Church then a Theology program would. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/17/2009 4:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry, fam. Feel your pain. All I say say is...Thank the Lord for the Internet!
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/17/2009 4:54 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Tom,
If you do get some advice about how to approach learning the Fathers, let the rest of us know, because (though I've never done a formal education) I'd like to tackle the Fathers one day as well.
I've noted great resource sites, such as ECCL and other good old-guys stuff, but man, where to start!
Thanks,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 12/18/2009 8:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 12/19/2009 12:47 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2009 2:16 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2009 2:21 PM (GMT -6) | | Excellent!
Christ in Eastern Christian Thought (Paperback)
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/19/2009 3:56:20 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2009 2:25 PM (GMT -6) | | And THIS...
AND THIS...
(o)Post Edited (PotOnWheel) : 12/19/2009 3:54:45 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks, B. Good stuff.
You know, I did something, just for kicks. I wanted to see how many times that "Lord, have mercy" was used in the Divine Liturgy stuff you posted.
Know how many I counted?
50. 5-0.
50 times you have a group of humans saying "Lord, have mercy."
Actually being more fully HUMAN* at the same time. All that AND the Nicene Creed, AND the Lord's Prayer...AND epiklesis, too? Dang. What have we Protestants been DOING? -------------------------------
* Repost: I'm starting to think that SK hits on something that suggests something: In our terms, simultaneously self-denying, God-affirming humility is an aspect of the universal "logos" for human beings. SK says that it's something that ANY human being can live in, unlike prolific artistic creativity. We act CONTRARY to our universally human "logos-definition" when we are NOT "walking humbly before our God." We are living OUTSIDE OF our true human nature when we can't "see" God within our pure, single-intented hearts.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2009 4:13:36 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 5:26 PM (GMT -6) | | | I wonder does Bishop Mark accept emails..
Bishop MARK was born on June 22, 1958 in New Albany, Indiana. He was baptized in Our Lady of Perpetual Help Roman Catholic Church in 1958 and confirmed when he was nine. He attended elementary school at our Lady of Perpetual Help and graduated from New Albany High School in 1976. He began undergraduate studies at Indiana University South East and completed his Bachelor of Arts degree at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma in 1985. In 1987, he was awarded a Master of Arts degree in Biblical Literature from Oral Roberts University and accepted the position of Adjunct Professor of Old Testament at Oral Roberts University.
Having been introduced to the Orthodox Church by the V. Rev. George Eber, pastor of St. Antony in Tulsa, Oklahoma and his professors of Church History, Dr Jerry Sandidge and his Old testament professor, Dr Howard Ervin at Oral Roberts University, Bishop MARK was received into the Church through Holy Chrismation on Great and Holy Wednesday 1989. Soon after, he requested Metropolitan PHILIP’s blessing to attend St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Seminary. He received his Master of Divinity degree at St. Vladimir’s in 1991. He worked at the Antiochian Village from 1991 to 1993, when he moved to New Kensington, Pennsylvania to assist Father John Abdalah.
Bishop MARK was ordained a deacon at the hand of Bishop ANTOUN at St. Mary Antiochian Orthodox Church in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania on August 17, 1997. On September 7, 1997, he was ordained to the Holy Priesthood at St. George in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
As I think about it, I remember Dr. Ervin. He was my Old Testament and Hebrew Exegesis prof. One of the best I had there...and he always had such beautifully trinitarian prayers...hmmm...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2009 4:30:37 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 5:33 PM (GMT -6) | | | WOW!
---------------------
This ex-Presbyterian youth minister killed this write-up on theosis...
Mark Shuttleworth lives in Pittsburgh, PA. He and his wife, Sara, are members of the Holy Virgin Orthodox Church (OCA) in Carnegie, PA. Mark was raised in an evangelical Protestant family, earned a Master of Divinity at Gordon-Conwell Seminary, was ordained and served for over ten years as a Presbyterian youth minister. Mark’s journey to Orthodoxy began in late 2002. He and his wife were chrismated in spring 2004.
The "journey to Orthodoxy" seems pretty...hmmm...
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2009 6:17:14 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2009 6:05 PM (GMT -6) | |
One Love said...
All that AND the Nicene Creed, AND the Lord's Prayer...AND epiklesis, too? And the Beatitudes too.
(o) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 6:06 PM (GMT -6) | | Next place to visit...soon! (Bishop Mark has been there, it seems...)
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 6:07 PM (GMT -6) | | Yeah...the beautitudes, too. Sheesh. Been missin' out, man.
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 12/19/2009 6:10 PM (GMT -6) | | | Easier memorizing them hearing them sung, or singing them yourself.
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 12/19/2009 6:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Chicago Tribune story. and antiochian.org story
Thanks for that, B. May God grant him the rest he so desired in life. Let's pray peace and calm upon all involved.
Listening to Archbishop Job's words to others about his retiring, a thought came to me...
"What does it profit a man to gain the whole world...and lose his own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?"
God, bless your servant.
--------------------------------------------
In chapter 8 of The Little Flowers of St. Francis of Assisi, Francis gives his friend Leo a teaching about what "perfect joy" is. They are trudging through the snow from Perugia to the home of their group at St. Mary of the Angeles. For their brotherhood to give a great example of holiness and edification in all lands would NOT be perfect joy, Francis says. Nor would a great ministry of healing and raising the dead. Nor would possession of all languages and all science, nor all understanding of prophecy and Scripture, and insight into the secrets of every soul. Nor would even the conversion of all unbelievers to faith in Christ!
By this point, brother Leo is amazed, and he begs Francis to teach him "wherein is perfect joy." The reply is that is, when they come to their quarters---dirty, wet, and exhausted from hunger--they are rejected, repeatedly rebuffed, and finally driven away by force, then "if we accept such injustice, such cruelty, and such contempt with patience, without being ruffled and without murmuring," and "if we bear all these injuries with patience and joy, thinking of the sufferings of our Blessed Lord, which we would share out of love for Him, write, O Brother Leo, that here, finally, is perfect joy."
Dallas Willard
Renovation of the Heart: Putting on the Character of Christ
Page 69
I. D. G. A. F.
Christ is All.
"God resists the proud, and give His grace to the humble." Post Edited (One Love) : 12/19/2009 6:05:03 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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