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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > "Is God to Blame?" Conference | Forum Quick Jump
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/11/2004 4:13 PM (GMT -6) |   | After reading the posts again from you Quest and from you Jef, I think I may have projected something into Quest’s original post because of how Greg responded to POW’s post. My issue really does not have anything to do with the OV specifically(yet), but rather with Quest’s original post about folks leaving the faith because of teachings of theology specifically what God does and does not ordain, whether he allows evil for a greater good.
Quest your issue is that the teaching that God allowed the bad thing to happen is what makes people abandon the faith. Is that correct? Okay, now I don’t necessarily disagree that may be a cause of someone leaving the faith, but what I have issue with is the assumption(obviously on my part) that the faith was genuine to begin with, that a true Christian, because of something bad happening or even being pitched that God allowed it would cause them to reject God. My position is I don’t think the faith of a person is genuine if they reject God. One cannot have faith in an object(here our object is God)of which they reject, and if they reject it then you have to question the professed faith in the first place. But again, this is not your issue is it Quest? You are merely saying that it is the teaching that is the problem, and whether the faith is genuine or not is irrelevant. Is that an accurate statement?
The other thing I think I was reacting to was this statement:
quote:
Quest:
Which leads me to a question: How does God judge these people who leave the faith because they couldn't make sense of it all?
Quest, the Gospel of Jesus Christ does not ask us to try and make sense of it all. The Gospel says to die to ourselves, by picking up our cross and following Him. How will he judge those who can’t make sense of it all? If you are asking how will God judge those who reject the faith because they could not make sense of it all?…, the answer is that he will probably send them to hell, I mean if you reject Jesus Christ, then you are rejecting eternal life. Again, we are not asked to make sense of it all, who can?
AND
quote:
Quest:
To me there seems to be a lot of gray in our world hence we really cannot judge other people.
Quest, what are you talking about? Gray? Gray in relation to what, rejecting faith? We are not supposed to judge anybody, but specifically in the context of rejecting the faith, what do you mean?
In all, I don’t really follow Greg’s stuff on OV. I mean I have heard some of it, but I don’t have time or the energy. My quest is submitting to the objective truth of the Gospel, and the things that I don’t understand, that is, the things I cannot wrap my finite brain around, that is, why things like the holocaust happened, why a Christian parent has their child kidnapped and raped and killed, I leave to God.
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/11/2004 4:40 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Jim, people abandon their faith for many reasons but the one that I have come across countless times is that they lose heart due to what the representatives of Christ have conveyed to them in the midst of a tragedy.
Jim: Quest - This is what I was struggling with - the way you state it is that these people have a genuine faith. I reject that. See my previous post.
quote:
Theology (not necessarily the truth) has a huge impact on how one views circumstances and trials. We all face periods of doubt and hopelessness but what we have been taught to believe, and what people say to us during those times, can cause us to believe the truth or a lie.
Jim: I can agree with that.
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/12/2004 12:33 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
If you are asking how will God judge those who reject the faith because they could not make sense of it all?…, the answer is that he will probably send them to hell, I mean if you reject Jesus Christ, then you are rejecting eternal life.
Hi Jim,
I choose not to agree with you that if a person doesn't accept Jesus they will go to hell. I know most people believe this but I do not. I work with people who are dying and I have seen there pain and struggles with end of life issues. The gray in which I speak of is that there are SO MANY variables in spiritual matters. When I was a Catholic the one thing I could get behind was purgatory because it made the most sense to me that those who are living within the gray line would still stand a chance at heaven. What I mean is that there are many who have grown up with warped world views or have been so severely abused by the church (and equate the church with Jesus) that they cannot reach out to Christ. What about those people who are dying? I cannot say that they definitely go to hell. I believe that conferences and books like Is God To Blame? help those who have been spiritually hurt or who cannot make sense out of the warfare.
That's my two cents.
Thanks for interacting with me. Feel free to challenge my beliefs. I LOVE being challenged and learning! | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/12/2004 7:30 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
If you are asking how will God judge those who reject the faith because they could not make sense of it all?…, the answer is that he will probably send them to hell, I mean if you reject Jesus Christ, then you are rejecting eternal life.
quote:
Hi Jim,
I choose not to agree with you that if a person doesn't accept Jesus they will go to hell. I know most people believe this but I do not. I work with people who are dying and I have seen there pain and struggles with end of life issues.
Quest - Why do you believe this? Do you believe this because of the pain of their physical being? That somehow they are exempt from confessing and repenting from their sin? Quest that is not even the issue. I know that you are compassionate toward them, but our perishable containers(as Paul would say) are not the issue. It is what is inside the container(our body) that is at stake. Paul says we have bodies of death! It is our soul being reconciled back to God through Christ that is the issue. It is our sin! ALL have sinned, ALL fall short!! You are not disagreeing with me, but with God. Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life that nobody comes to the Father but through him! I guess I am confused Quest. Is this just a personal belief YOU CHOOSE to believe? I mean here we are talking about faith and Christ, and you don't even believe that Christ is necessary for salvation? Quest, this is a very serious thing! Are you saying you don't believe in Jesus revealed in Scripture? I'm not trying to back you in a corner, but receiving Jesus Christ as Lord by faith(which is what is required for salvation) is believing who He is and doing what He says! You are saying otherwise Quest, and I think you would do well to test your own profession of faith. The Bible says to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. Quest - Who do you say that He is?
Concerned for you,
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/13/2004 12:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Jim,
I appreciate your concern for me and your challenging my beliefs. As I said, I love to learn and grow. I love God with all of my heart. I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I know what the bible teaches in regard to salvation. Perhaps I would be better to say that I believe God judges the heart. I believe Jesus gives people EVERY opportunity to accept him and I believe this includes at their last breath of life. Having been with people at their last breath I have felt and experienced the spiritual side of life. Perhaps what I choose to believe is that Jesus reveals himself to people (even at their last breath) so they have until their very last breath to say "Yes" I agree with the bible that salvation is through Jesus Christ.
Thanks for your concern. I appreciate your setting me straight on this. I agree we need to accept Jesus and I believe God knows the heart and gives those who are lost until their last breath to say YES. He pursues us to the end. | | Back to Top | | |
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Jim Mottl
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2003
Total Posts : 57
| Posted 7/13/2004 6:00 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Jim,
I appreciate your concern for me and your challenging my beliefs. As I said, I love to learn and grow. I love God with all of my heart. I believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. I know what the bible teaches in regard to salvation. Perhaps I would be better to say that I believe God judges the heart.
Hi Quest, no problem about the concern I'm glad that you believe! God does judge the heart. The problem is that it is evil and wicked.
quote:
I believe Jesus gives people EVERY opportunity to accept him and I believe this includes at their last breath of life. Having been with people at their last breath I have felt and experienced the spiritual side of life. Perhaps what I choose to believe is that Jesus reveals himself to people (even at their last breath) so they have until their very last breath to say "Yes" I agree with the bible that salvation is through Jesus Christ.
It sounds like you are in a position that would allow you to impact someone eternally.
quote:
I agree we need to accept Jesus and I believe God knows the heart and gives those who are lost until their last breath to say YES. He pursues us to the end.
And God is using you to do that for these people.
Thanks,
Jim | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/14/2004 12:48 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
It sounds like you are in a position that would allow you to impact someone eternally
Hi Jim,
I pray for people (often times silently while I am at their bedside) but I do not always feel moved by the Spirit to share with them about salvation. That is not my job description. Sometimes I struggle with this piece when I know that they are atheist or Buddist... but I trust that God is working through my prayers for them. The way I can reconcile their death for myself is to trust that God knows what no mortal can know about their heart and personal journey. I really believe that Jesus is present and moving. The actively dying process is such a spiritual time - I feel blessed when I can be present. | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/19/2004 5:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Selahquote:
Jo-Anne...hey girl, what about the conference? The EEM wants me to reserve for the Saturday night dinner (or not)...
Is anyone going to that?
All I can say is that anyone who has the opportunity and financial means to go to this conference will be blessed. I wish it was being held here in Minnesota. Will it be taped? Hey maybe those of us who cannot go could listen to it on this web site!
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JET
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 7/20/2004 2:42 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
All I can say is that anyone who has the opportunity and financial means to go to this conference will be blessed.
What the heck, Shipshewanna is practically in our back yard, so my wife and I have decided to go. (Although, as far as we're concerned, I think Sanders and Boyd will be preaching to the choir.) I'm sure it'll be interesting and I look forward to meeting John E., Selah, moon river (hope you can make it), Doc, Dr. Sanders and others.
quote:
How will we know each other?
I'll be the quiet, shy guy  with the pretty, outgoing wife 
Earl
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 7/20/2004 4:58 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
How I DO "opportunity" and "financial means"b...
Opportunity = decide. cancel everything else. take a break. bracket the world. go.
Financial means = use that free Amtrak ticket before it expires. get an el cheapo rental car by bidding on priceline.com. Picture your daughter enjoying a weekend at ND. go.
QFT, if you are who I think you are (and I'm 99% sure you are ), then you know me. "Just do it" is my motto... (ok I stole my motto) but anyway, yep, it should be very nice indeed.
peace, joy, and love,
selah
"Just do it" is a great motto. If I had a free ticket and a daughter looking at Notre Dame... then I would be able to justify going too. I hope you all have a nice time. Maybe you can bring me back tapes or put them on this web site for those of us less fortunate?
God bless!
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/28/2004 11:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
I can come!
 on points...all the way from the great white frozen north of Canada - to South Bend, IN - on points! Yahoo! (all I need is the final ok from my husband...and I'm off!) I'll confirm in the morning!
Flights booked! He is "The God of the Possible!"
Jo-Anne 
Congrats! Don't forget to bring the back bacon, eh.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/28/2004 2:03 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 7/29/2004 1:30 AM (GMT -6) | | And Jo-anne, LEAVE YOUR WORTHLESS COINS AT HOME, they just fall through our vending machines. 
You CVMers are going to have a great time.
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 8/1/2004 5:17 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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