 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
| 
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 5/19/2005 2:50 PM (GMT -6) |   | | Yes, I'm a nerd! I'm not ashamed! My life consists of theology and sci-fi. Fine! Go ahead and laugh. BTW don't read this until you've seen the movie; I might give away something.
Now to business. I'm finishing up Fear and Trembling and I just watched the midnight showing of Revenge. I saw lots of similarities and applications; am I just making it up? Does anyone else see that? There are so many examples, but I think the best one is with Anakin and latter Luke. Tell me if I'm messing this up, but Anakin resigns his particular passions for the universal, and then gives up on the universal/ethical (Jedi council). The problem is that he falls back on his particular passions by trying to fulfill them by his own strength. Luke goes through nearly the same thing. There comes a point where he goes against Yoda and Obi-wan and follows his passions, but the difference is that Luke acts out of faith, he throws down in saber (after admittedly trying to fix things by his own power by picking it up). Luke sees his friends being killed, sees his father defend evil, sees the Emperor living despite the best possible efforts to kill him. Still when he throws down his saber, you can see in his eyes that he believes it will work out. He says to the Emperor, "You have failled," when he still clearly has the upper hand.
While watching the movie I was thinking that Kierkegaard would agree with Anakin's abandoning the Jedi and maybe even his killing them. After all he agrees with Abraham killing his son. As I thought more about it, I was thinking maybe Anakin was doing the right thing all along, even when siding with Palpatine (according to Kierkegaard). He did something absolutely horrifying and "evil", but so did Abraham. And it half-way pays off. He gets his kids and finds immortality in the end still losing Padme (but who knows with the secret of immortality). It was out of his hands too. It's not like he saved the kids or found the secret himself. He trusted that his horrible deeds would not be the last word and things would be made right (just like Abraham) and to a great extent he was right.
Big fat nerd, yes, I know. I think I can now honestly say that I like Star Wars Sextet more than the Ender's Quartet.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 5/19/2005 2:54:21 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
 |
Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 5/21/2005 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/21/2005 2:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey guys,
I liked soren kierkegaard a lot in college, but i don't remember as much and didn't read as much as i would like. however, i did see the movie and have a couple thoughts.
corey: If anything, I think his character doesn't know much of love, but rather is sullen and self-absorbed.
bryan: i'm feelin' ya on this one, mate.
sahid: If I had to name my Isaac, I would say I desire rest, calm. I don't want to worry about paying the bills. Is this something I should sacrifice? How?
bryan: i think the only snag with this kind of question is that in hebrews 11 (v.19), it sorta seems like abe was sure that isaac would not ultimately be taken away from him. it happened a little different than he was maybe thinking (an angel stopping him at the last minute rather than a raising of the slaughtered isaac back from the dead), but is this really the same type of "sacrifice" about which you are speaking? rather than rest, lets say your sacrifice is, like, your XBOX (assuming for the purposes of this discussion that you actually own one). you feel that god wants you to give up your XBOX (which by the way, he promised he'd give you for years of enjoyment and then delivered to you -- this would put this sacrifice in a similar context). he tells you to chuck it into a revine or something. so you go down to the grand canyon and some guy in a flannel shirt runs up to you and says "no! i know what you're doing and god has sent me to say that he intends for you to keep the XBOX he promised you for the many years of enjoyment to come and that he just wanted to see if you trusted him enough to chuck your XBOX into the grand canyon and whether or not you loved him or your XBOX more?" you'd then say thank you to god and tell him you knew he'd have some way of making sure you got to continue playing XBOX for many years to come.
do you see what i'm saying? the sacrifice was a sacrfice in the sense of the OT sacrificial system (hence abe sacrificing a ram instead), not in the sense we would normally think of sacrifice today, at least in my reading of the text. it would be difficult, i think, for you to have a parallel sacrifice in your own life. i think it is very noble for you to want to make sacrifices for God and, perhaps, you should go ahead and sacrifice the things you are speaking of, but i wouldn't see abraham's sacrifice of isaac as the prototype of this kind of sacrifice. i imagine the whole "leave this place and go to a land i will show you" command entailed things very similar to what you're talking about and, obviously, abe rose to that challenge so i'm sure abe made sacrifices like the one you mentioned.
as far as how we should emulate abe is concerned, i'd say the big thing is the relationship with god. he did all the things he did becuz god told him to. there was a huge level of intimacy there. and this is what abe had that i desire. so i ask god to show me how i can be more intimate with him and keep looking for his answers to this question.
how's that grab you?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 5/21/2005 11:37 PM (GMT -6) | | This will probably be too quick.
How is the XBOX sacrifice different from a burnt offering? I don't see the difference. It symbolizes atonement, devotion, commitment, and surrender, just like a burnt offering.
The point of Hebrews 10 and 11 is that we should have the faith of people like Abraham. His sacrifice is an example.
I think Anakin does love. "Greater love has no man..." I'll grant that he doesn't know the Absolute, but within the movies Padme/Shmi is what he is devoted to. I wonder what it takes to be compelling. If Anakin wasn't, I'm certainly not.
I'll agree that Anakin is sullen and self-absorbed, but so is Abraham. It just makes the comparison stronger.
What should he have done (if he were a Christian and fan of SK)? Should he not sacrifice even that which he loves, when he believes that it is the only way to truly have it?
I admit I'm a rookie. Tell me more about the Absolute.
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 5/22/2005 6:21 PM (GMT -6) | | In regards to the talk about the Absolute, I'm just trying to point out (as I understand SK does) that the ONLY reason Abraham (or anyone else, real or fictional) would be justified in attempting this kind of sacrifice is that he was explicitly directed by God to do it. He responded in faith, because he knew God to be good and capable, able even to raise Isaac from the dead. He assumed (correctly) that God would not do evil. Abraham's actions were perfectly appropriate given what God had revealed to him.
Now, SK also makes the point that any of us on the outside would be morally obliged to do all within our power to stop Abraham from killing his son.
So whatever we want to say about Anakin's motivations, and the price he was willing to pay for it, he's still morally wrong, unless there was some part of the story I missed where the God of the universe told him to do it and he was merely responding in faith in God's character.
There's a point here somewhere that I think is important, but I feel too clumsy in attempting to bring it forward. It has to do with the way that SK has been misused or misrepresented (not necessarily by you, but in the general culture.) It's not mere sacrifice that's important (thus leaving it up to the individual to decide how to go about that) but rather it's sacrifice made IN THE CONTEXT of rightly relating to the Absolute. It's this second half that's missing from the Anakin analogy. The first is mere relativism, the second is Christianity. Post Edited (Corey) : 5/22/2005 6:29:11 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 5/22/2005 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | |
Corey said...
The Absolute does not even exist in the world of Anakin. Speaking of all this "absolute" stuff, there was an interesting out-of-place quote in the movie... Obi-wan and Anakin's fight against each other, in response to something Anakin said, Obi-wan replied wiht the single statement, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!!" and then they resumed fighting.
Hmm... is Obi-wan absolutely sure about that?
| | Back to Top | | |
|
Sahid
Megistered Rember
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 2013
| Posted 5/22/2005 10:41 PM (GMT -6) | | | Anakin is responding to his feeling that he should care for the innocent people who are dying around him: his mother, and soon, his wife. I know it's messy trying to define God, but God is love. Jesus talks about those who show love without even realizing that what they are doing is relating to Jesus himself.
Can we be sure that Anakin is not relating to the Absolute? Can we be sure that Abraham had any understanding that was much better than Anakin's? He related to God personally, called him Soveriegn, and was told that he created heaven and earth. Is that what it takes to know that you are relating to the Absolute. And, finally, is it important that one know?
Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - StavesacrePost Edited (Sahid) : 5/22/2005 10:51:42 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/23/2005 7:23 AM (GMT -6) | | hey guys,
sahid: How is the XBOX sacrifice different from a burnt offering? I don't see the difference. It symbolizes atonement, devotion, commitment, and surrender, just like a burnt offering. The point of Hebrews 10 and 11 is that we should have the faith of people like Abraham. His sacrifice is an example.
corey: In regards to the talk about the Absolute, I'm just trying to point out (as I understand SK does) that the ONLY reason Abraham (or anyone else, real or fictional) would be justified in attempting this kind of sacrifice is that he was explicitly directed by God to do it. He responded in faith, because he knew God to be good and capable, able even to raise Isaac from the dead. He assumed (correctly) that God would not do evil. Abraham's actions were perfectly appropriate given what God had revealed to him.
bryan: i think, sahid, corey may have said here what i was driving at. the faith lauded in hebrews 11 is that abe trusted that God would not really make him give the promise up, not faith in the sense of being willing to give up what he'd rather keep. better articulated?
sahid: Can we be sure that Anakin is not relating to the Absolute? Can we be sure that Abraham had any understanding that was much better than Anakin's?
bryan: i am with you on the fact that anakin is probably relating to the absolute in some capacity and that abraham was also relating to the absolute in a capacity less than an absolute undertstanding/relating to the absolute. i think you make excellent points to this effect and made me consider something i was quick to not see. however, i would not say that anakin and abe related equally to the absolute or had an equal understanding of the absolute. i think this is evidenced by the results: anakin's chaos (relative to abe's results) or, if ya like, abe's order (relative to anakin's results).
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/23/2005 7:35 AM (GMT -6) | | hey violin (and corey),
violin: Obi-wan replied wiht the single statement, "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!!" and then they resumed fighting. Hmm... is Obi-wan absolutely sure about that?
corey: Yeah, I caught that remark.
bryan: yeah, okay, you have a point, but do you think maybe you've caught obiwan (or probably lucas, to be honest) on a technicality? his point seems to be that the sith are the only ones who DEAL in absolutes, i.e. who cannot see the shades of complexity to moral issues, rather than that they are the only ones who ever make absolute statements. given lucas' politics, i would say he is stating his own position here in regards to the current political climate in the States (hence the above parenthetical). so i don't think that lucas' point in the line is to show how the jedi are guilty of the sith's mistake (absoluteism). this would indict himself. thus, i'd say he merely unfortuneatly used an absolutist way of stating an aversion to absolutism, but not truly negating his point. semantics, in other words. do you see what i'm saying?
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 5/23/2005 8:29 AM (GMT -6) | |
Sahid said...
Can we be sure that Anakin is not relating to the Absolute? Can we be sure that Abraham had any understanding that was much better than Anakin's? He related to God personally, called him Soveriegn, and was told that he created heaven and earth. Is that what it takes to know that you are relating to the Absolute. And, finally, is it important that one know? and...
bryan mccarthy said...
bryan: i am with you on the fact that anakin is probably relating to the absolute in some capacity and that abraham was also relating to the absolute in a capacity less than an absolute undertstanding/relating to the absolute. Seriously, I think you guys are giving Lucas too much credit here. I've heard interviews with him where he states that he's modelled the world of Star Wars after shaolin buddhism. As a matter of design by Lucas THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE in that world. He has stated that one of his primary purposes with the series is to expose westerners to this worldview.
Think about it... how can anyone in that world relate to an impersonal power or even to an abstraction like love in the same way that Abraham related to the personal, accessible and final authority on all things, the creator himself? | | Back to Top | | |
|
Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 5/25/2005 2:45 AM (GMT -6) | |
bryan mccarthy said...so i don't think that lucas' point in the line is to show how the jedi are guilty of the sith's mistake (absoluteism). this would indict himself. thus, i'd say he merely unfortuneatly used an absolutist way of stating an aversion to absolutism, but not truly negating his point. semantics, in other words. do you see what i'm saying? bryan
hey Bryan,
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but I think it deals with more than just semantics. The statement deals with a serious logical error. I wasn't quite aiming to catch Obiwan on a technicality, but a somewhat out-of-place comment in the movie that in fact promotes a certain world view. It's established to the audience that Jedi = good and Sith = bad. This leads the audience to the conclusion that we don't want to be like the Sith. When the Sith is labeled as the ones who deal in absolutes, a child may (or may not... kids can notice the strangest things!) notice a comment like this because it is somewhat out of place. And without realizing it, a comment like this can affect the unsuspecting child's world view, i.e. thinking in absolutes such as "right and wrong" is wrong. (footnote, this relates to The Abolition of Man from the great C.S. Lewis)
The thing is, so many people make statements like these that just logically collapse when questioned, and they don't realize what's wrong with those statements until it's pointed out to them. Here are some of my favorites: "there is no truth" (makes a truth-value statement), "don't judge" (that's a judgment call), most recently "we perceive the world through our own truths", "reality can't be known" (making a claim of knowledge about knowing reality), "you absolutists are wrong" (making an "absolute" claim), and "all religions are correct". I've heard all of these statements.
And I agree, Lucas' point was probably not meant to show the mistake... he probably has no idea that this type of statement is intrinsicly erroneous. I think that goes for all people who make this type of statement. If they knew, they likely wouldn't say it unless they purposely want to confuse others.
The only reason I posted that statement was just to point out the presence of the statement in the movie. ... I guess just for kicks. 
Post Edited (Violin for God) : 5/25/2005 2:49:53 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 5/26/2005 7:19 AM (GMT -6) | | hey vi,
violin: The thing is, so many people make statements like these that just logically collapse when questioned, and they don't realize what's wrong with those statements until it's pointed out to them. Here are some of my favorites: "there is no truth" (makes a truth-value statement), "don't judge" (that's a judgment call), most recently "we perceive the world through our own truths", "reality can't be known" (making a claim of knowledge about knowing reality), "you absolutists are wrong" (making an "absolute" claim), and "all religions are correct". I've heard all of these statements.
bryan: okay, i'll concede the point. and i do think most people who make these statements actually do believe in some absolutes so this is the reason their even able to makes absolute statements like this. possibly their absolutes are that which most people they know and respect agree on. actually, i've heard lately that universities are returning to the modernity format, dispensing with post-modernity becuz they don't know what to do with it. this may actually work in your favour regarding the issues we're discussing over on your thread about college "drop-outs."
but then, really, this issue goes much deeper. it's not really about the philosophical concept of whether or not truth exists, but about what people who talk like this have experienced. basically, people who say these things just wanna be left alone. but why do they want that? what has happened to them? this is the direction i like to take these sorts of debates, talk about what's really going on. i usually ask them if they've ever known any ardent christians and what their relationship was like with that person(s)/what their perception of that person(s) was. and depending on how well i know them, what their relationship and perceptions of their parents are/were like. both of these questions start getting you where the real issues behind the debate are. (btw, i think what i just said is kinda getting away from sahid's questions and is more related to your aforementioned thread so if you wanna chat about this paragraph, you may wanna copy-paste it into a post over there so as not to derail sahid's thread.)
violin: And I agree, Lucas' point was probably not meant to show the mistake... he probably has no idea that this type of statement is intrinsicly erroneous. I think that goes for all people who make this type of statement. If they knew, they likely wouldn't say it unless they purposely want to confuse others.
bryan: so then, i guess lucas is actually the one with the self-contradiction problem.
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
Violin for God
Luke, I am your father. --Nooooooooo!!!!!
Date Joined Dec 2004
Total Posts : 690
| Posted 6/15/2005 12:41 AM (GMT -6) | |
bryan mccarthy said...
bryan: (...you may wanna copy-paste it into a post over there so as not to derail sahid's thread.)
violin: yeah, you made some good points. I'll continue that on the other thread.
bryan: so then, i guess lucas is actually the one with the self-contradiction problem.
That's true... I'd say most people who contradict themselves don't actually know that they're doing that. I've probably contradicted myself many times without knowing it! 
| | Back to Top | | |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 2:37 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|