 |
Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > General Chat > (No Subject)
| Forum Quick Jump
|
 | 
Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/17/2005 4:31 PM (GMT -6) |   | Hello Jo-Anne,
I'm not sure that there's any one particular meaning to "dark night of the soul." There was a good book written by a chaplin in Vietnam called "Dark Night of the Soul." The book was addressing how one can relate God and spiritual matters to Vietnam Veterans. The dark night of the soul was the order of the ramifications to the soul when a war is fought in the context of one such as the Vietnam conflict (war!).
For me, I experienced my dark night of the soul as I watched all that I had thought God had promised me not only fall apart but go completely in the opposite direction. It involved my first wife. I was so sure God had given me certain "promises" from His word about us. Well, not only did they not come true, but we divorced! I spent many, many days (a year or two) in a period of absolute darkness and confusion about who and what God was supposed to be. All I could do was determine that if God was God, He was worth being worshiped and served simply for no other reason: He is God.
As time passed, I came out of the darkness. I've learned more from that one event than probably everything else I know combined: God is to be served simply because He is God. I was to learn that I did not need any other reason. All the "revelation" I thought I had received, all the "promises," and all the "God told me" stuff went right out the door. I determined that I would not let myself be led into that kind of mischief again. If God was going to speak, He'd have to be darned clear. DARNED clear. I wasn't going to let my life be led by the nose in a lot of super spiritual stuff anymore. I had no intentions of tossing out the baby with the bathwater, but I was not going to fall into any of those traps anymore.
Now, married to my wife of five years, I had to watch her go through her dark night of the soul. She was very much into the charismatic scene. She had come to believe what the "word-of-faith" preachers taught and was very much into a lot of false teaching. When it all began to be clear to her that she had never learned what she knew from the Bible (the more we talked together about God, the more this became clear to her), the more she fought and tried desperately to hold on to her beliefs. Finally she pretty much collapsed spiritually, so much that she didn't even know if she was saved anymore. What was so poignant to her was that she had to admit she didn't know God's word after all. She only knew what everyone else had told her. That really...REALLY shook her up. She's still quite gunshy about trusting even what I teach, but she's learning to read scripture more practically and in its context. Praise the Lord. (Incidentally, the reason God took her through that time was because He knew I'd be there to support her and help her get on the right path. That's the grace of God. He is very careful about taking His children through this dark time, and few there are, I think, who will really surrender to go through it. It's that tramatic. But my wife's pulled through and is doing well.)
It is my personal conviction that if one really, really wants to serve God, he will go through a dark night of the soul. It will be personal and suited for that person in order for God to clench the commitment, if you will. For Paul, I think it was the thorn in his flesh. For me it was having placed far too much trust in "spiritual" things instead of good old practical common sense and practicality in regard to the things of God. For others it is having to sell all that they have (the rich, young ruler). It's different for each person, but I'm personally convinced that everyone has that one thing that God must deal with, that which will create the dark night of the soul in that Christian. It is that which brings the do-or-die out of the Christian.
Anyway, I hope that helps.
For staying the course,
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?Post Edited (Starkman) : 7/17/2005 4:35:20 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
Empiressque
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 17
| Posted 7/17/2005 9:29 PM (GMT -6) | | What a lovely question!
The Dark Night of the Soul was a concept coined by St. John of the Cross originally (Carmelite monk) and used by many of the saints and various theologians since then to describe a time when God, to help his children progress along the spiritual path, removes a sense of himself or a sense of his presence and all the consolations that come with that from an individual. It is a time that has a refining aspect to it...a dryness when one's faith is tested and one can feel as though they are "in the dark" or in the desert and cannot see or feel God. The purpose, according to St. John, is to cause the soul to grow as it yearns for God and seeks God with a deep hunger. One can feel depressed or sad, but it not depression per se...it feels like a void.
I have gone through it many times...everyone does at times if they are walking the Christian life and moving forward on their spirtitual journey. And while it might feel like a crisis of faith, it isn't. In retrospect one sees, after they have come out of it, that they are even close to God than before and have matured spiritually.
I hope that is helpful to you.
Peace!
~E+ | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/17/2005 10:27 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/18/2005 12:26 AM (GMT -6) | | "E"
You're right about it feeling like a void; it is the strangest "place" I've ever been in my Christian life, and that following a time of passionate pursuit. The stress in our family has been over the top and we are trying to sort our way through it. It's like navigating in the fog, through murky depths, knowing that He's there still, but not seeing where He is, not hearing, not feeling, or like feeling your way through a dark room. And in a sense I feel alone in this, though I know intellectually that that is not true. Part of me believes I could just "snap out of it," and part of me recognizes that this is unlike anything I've ever felt before--still part of the journey, but one I'd rather not take.
Starkman
Thank you for sharing part of your journey, for being vulnerable enough to share it. I am deeply sorry for what happened with your first wife, but trust that your second marriage is a wonderful blessing and that God has healed those broken places in your life.
I appreciate the thoughts. Spark, the link didn't work that you sent, but I appreciate the thought.
God bless,
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 7/18/2005 8:49 AM (GMT -6) | |
SoulPurpose said...
I appreciate the thoughts. Spark, the link didn't work that you sent, but I appreciate the thought.
The Conversion from CVM lost the link. Try it again, I fixed it.
Shalom,
Mark
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. | | Back to Top | | |
|
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/18/2005 10:05 PM (GMT -6) | | DARK NIGHT WORDS are in works by May, Manning, Thomas Moore, and many others. Oh and Francic MacNutt! Dark nights are when our life seems to be separated from God. As A Christian I believe I am never separated...and as a man I experience the lack of sensation often. One thing I think is that these "nights" are never truly over for us. We will experience them periodically throughout our lives. I marvel at the experience of a believer truly wondering...am I even saved? I can imagine how this wonderment might do all of us much good. I am never quite sure of anyone who is so assured of their walk and place in God. Give me a friend and confidant who has these momnets of insecurity...I can much better then tell of my own. WE `HAVE sung the sone "Blessed Be the Name " lots lately at church. It talks of the times of despair and shadow and valley..and "blessing " his name even so. It does seem the modern church dosen't have much place for this experience...thus, the cry of many hearts..."what is this dark night stuff" ?
Peace (even in darkness),
B Atk
| | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 7/19/2005 3:36 PM (GMT -6) | | hi ya jo-anne,
yeah, this concept has sort of puzzled me for a long time. i hate experiences being sort of narrowed down into catchphrases. but i'd definitely say it's a real thing. mine occured about 3.5 years ago. it was nine months long and it was horrible. i cried a lot. theologically, i knew god was there, but he wasn't, if that makes sense. throuout life, lots of times god is "silent," that is you talk and he doesn't talk back or whatever, even for long periods of time and, actually, this, to some degree, depends on how well a person has grown in their ability to "hear" god. but what we're talking about here, at least in my experience, is different. this involves not just him refraining from speaking, but also the sensation (or possibly the reality) of him not listening. these days, even though he may not speak, i can feel him listening. this was not the case with this 9 month period. as i said, theologically, it seemed that he had to be listening, but practically, i don't know that that was the case.
i was talking to a kind of seasoned pastor-type guy during this time period, trying to keep myself from weeping right there in front of him. this was not my pastor, but my friend's dad's pastor that my friend thought i would like and so we went one sunday. i spoke to him after the sermon and i don't remember if i intended to bring up my situation or not, but it did eventually become the focus of our conversation (as is often the case with these things, in my experience). he said that he could see it my eyes becuz i had what they called in the service "the thousand yard stare" which meant i'd been through war. he told me that it was normal, that god often does this right before he brings someone to a different level, usually someone whom he's leading into full-time ministry (i'm not sure i agree that it's usually limited to that, but that's what he said), and that i needed to allow it to run its course and be okay with it, but never to relish it. (when you're not communicating with god in any way, you're not experiencing conviction either and you can see how the flesh would view this as not an altogether bad thing).
it ended when i met a girl who was an aspiring missionary and i was simultaneously just finishing college and pretty aware that i wanted to be in full-time ministry rather than what i'd gone to school for, but had no clue which kind of ministry other than that i did not want to be a pastor. all of a sudden god was there. he was listening and he was showing (not at this time telling) me that he was leading me to be a missionary.
i think that life is a lot messier that we make it out to be sometimes and that what we experience may not line up with our general theology and, occassionally (maybe even only rarely), this can mean that our theology requires an adjustment, which is what i did to a certain extent, as i think is evident by my post.
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
barryatk
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2004
Total Posts : 101
| Posted 7/19/2005 4:59 PM (GMT -6) | | Gosh! I see my last post was number 100! OOOOhah! Well, bryan...I envy you as well as stay glad I'm not that young. I think I might like being 20 something again and yet having now three 20 something children of my own...I kinda like being older. It is such an ordeal it seems to boil down to what God really really intends with each life. My younger son, 21, has a huge book of last words from the famous or infamous. Today, at 50, I think of what I might like mine to be. At 21, I think my son is still wanting to learn...HOW TO SPELL...that is spiritually. I know he has a very large heart towards God and man. I do too...but today, I'd be fine with knowing I just affected one heart with a great influence for God...and at least every week or two. My son wants to influence the masses, the millions, the generations. I applaud and support this. This is the difference in our ages. I am fine with having impact on just one life and my son wants impact on millions. I've known my dark nights of soul...and he has too. I've known that I went years following a certain vain of Christianity to realize...it was not quite what God wanted for me and my family. My son hasn't known that yet. I guess I'm trying to suggest that you not lock down too hard, too fast...on a certain stream, a certain woman, a certain ministry. And this as I write is something my son has followed. I haven't told him in words...but it seems he has stayed open in a way that I would have advised. I admire his slowness. Make any sense?
Barry
| | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/19/2005 7:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Bryan,
Yeah, I've noticed that we seem to have this need to label things that we can't explain, as if that somehow makes them easier to deal with; it's the only, "if only we can put or finger on it, or a name to it," kind of thing. If we can diagnose something, we can treat it. I can't believe where I'm at, or how it feels to be here, and in just saying that much I feel a wee bit selfish, and somewhat immature, like I should know better, or I should snap out of it. But, it is as you described about not hearing God and not even being sure if He is listening, though I know better intellectually and theologically. I've said so many wonderful cliches to people over the years; I've been well meaning, meaning them with all my heart, trying to soothe, encourage ... Things like, "He's the God who fights over us," or "He sings over us," and so on. He is the God who never slumbers, knows every hair on our head, every thought, loves us unconditionally. All those truths that I believe, but now don't feel. I should know better. I'm old enough, have walked this walk long enough, preached, lived it--passionately. I've had this amazing relationship with the Father, discovered a sacred romance, but something happened to me through incredible stress and ministry, family stuff that has been painful beyond words--one day I realized that I felt like all there was above me was just ceiling, and that God was on the other side of it--unreachable. And I feel foolish talking this way, but I want to be real--honest, and not pretend about where I'm at. It's not something you want to stand up and share on a Sunday morning; I can imagine the blank stares, or the looks of pity, or even looks that say, "You should know better. You do know better!" I've questioned myself about whether or not this is just an extreme case of navel gazing, if I'm going through something hormonal, if it is the result of too much stress for too long, or what? I'm a positive person, a passionate person who loves what she is doing in life. I believe in relationship, with God first and then with others, and maybe that's why this is so hard. I don't feel what I've felt, and I love feeling in this relationship, love hearing from the Father. Maybe this is preparation for something.
I am thankful for this board. It feels like a safe place in my life, a place where I'm not judged, and a place to learn. Thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds amazingly like what I'm feeling, and you're right--if you're readable at all (and I am), people see it on your face--in your eyes; it rises to the surface and becomes a topic of conversation. I haven't hung out around any one person long enough for it to "rise to the surface," but I'm sure it will (we have family camp in two weeks).
I don't want people to feel sorry for me, but I do want to understand, to know that someone is praying, to have someone walk with me in this for a while. And I do know that you need to keep putting one foot in front of the other, keeping listening, keep relating ... yada, yada, yada ...
Sounds a wee bit like nazel gazing doesn't it?
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 7/23/2005 6:30 PM (GMT -6) | | | heyya barry,
barry: I guess I'm trying to suggest that you not lock down too hard, too fast...on a certain stream, a certain woman, a certain ministry. And this as I write is something my son has followed. I haven't told him in words...but it seems he has stayed open in a way that I would have advised. I admire his slowness. Make any sense?
bryan: yeah. i didn't really elaborate on some of the specifics of what i'm currently going through in these areas becuz it wasn't the focus of my post (or the thread actually), but at the risk of derailing the jo-anne's thread, i will say that this comment of yours is helpful to me for the following reason: though i do feel like i want to be a missionary, this is a REALLY broad field. there are so many different types of missionaries so i really haven't narrowed it down all that much. i've been feeling lately that i don't need a "vision," that is, a specific ministry aspiration. i feel like god has told me that i don't need vision becuz he has vision and as long as i do what he tells me to do i'll be executing that vision whether i have the vision or not. so i've recently dumped all of the pressure i put on myself to work out what i want, ministry-wise/occupationally. (this is not to say that i've dumped the pressure others put on me in this regard, unfortunatley.)
regarding "a certain woman," i have likewise given up forcing (or even hurrying) this. of course, this does not stop me from wishing it would go faster some days, but my actions don't reflect this thinking, at least i think. this too is an area of high pressure from people who seem like they should not be so concerned.
but your thoughts add to some other thoughts i've received randomly lately, which confirm this thinking. so thanks.
barry: My son wants to influence the masses, the millions, the generations. I applaud and support this. This is the difference in our ages. I am fine with having impact on just one life and my son wants impact on millions.
bryan: yeah, i know what he means. i feel this way too. the phraseology i normally use to express this is "to be part of an entire society being changed by an encounter with god."
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 7/23/2005 6:54 PM (GMT -6) | | heyya jo-anne,
jo-anne: I can imagine the blank stares, or the looks of pity, or even looks that say, "You should know better. You do know better!"
bryan: yeah, and sadly you're probably right in the case of many or even most people. or worse, total apathy. many of course would be TOTALLY sympathetic and unpatronising. but regarding those who respond in the way you mentioned, sure you know better, but this isn't really about knowing is it? (i'm posing this in response to them rather than you). it's about feeling. this, i believe, is a component of true belief. think about all the people who know god exists, no tons of stuff about god, and likewise with jesus and the cross and his sacrifice, ad infinitum, and yet, don't know god and don't "believe." it's cuz belief is when you know in a way that no one can convince you that you don't know it or that it isn't true. and to get there, you have to experience and you have to feel. how that applies to here is that you may "know" god always hears/listens (and actually, HOW do we know this? what about ISA 1.15?), but when you're not experiencing that as reality it's hard to believe. maybe the naysayers would be technically correct to say "god always listens; you should/do know this," but the job of fellow xians is to help you believe it and i dunno -- you tell me -- does saying "you should know better" or even "you do know better" help you believe what you "know?" i would say no. i think your feelings are completely valid and i also think GOD thinks your feelings are completely valid. if more people let you know those two things, i wonder how long it would be before your so called "Dark night of the soul" would be over, if for no other reason that you came to believe god was really there and really listening becuz of the people he put in your life that were understanding and responsive and proactive in their love for you when you needed it most. if i lived in your community or went to your church, i'd come over your house and just talk and listen. sort of a disadvantage to message boards of this nature i guess.
jo-anne: I've questioned myself about whether or not this is just an extreme case of navel gazing...
and later,
jo-anne: Sounds a wee bit like nazel gazing doesn't it?
bryan: sorry, don't know the expression.
jo-anne: I am thankful for this board....I haven't hung out around any one person long enough for it to "rise to the surface," but I'm sure it will (we have family camp in two weeks).
bryan: i think these two sentences show why there is a need for what i was talking about above.
jo-anne: I don't want people to feel sorry for me, but I do want to understand, to know that someone is praying, to have someone walk with me in this for a while.
bryan: and to be underSTOOD as well, which i think is a very basic, quintessential human need. i think we are most frustrated when we feel we're misunderstood, which is why we go to such lengths to prevent it.
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/25/2005 9:48 PM (GMT -6) | | bryan mccarthy said...
heyya jo-anne,
jo-anne: I can imagine the blank stares, or the looks of pity, or even looks that say, "You should know better. You do know better!"
bryan: yeah, and sadly you're probably right in the case of many or even most people. or worse, total apathy. many of course would be TOTALLY sympathetic and unpatronising. but regarding those who respond in the way you mentioned, sure you know better, but this isn't really about knowing is it? (i'm posing this in response to them rather than you). it's about feeling. this, i believe, is a component of true belief. think about all the people who know god exists, no tons of stuff about god, and likewise with jesus and the cross and his sacrifice, ad infinitum, and yet, don't know god and don't "believe." it's cuz belief is when you know in a way that no one can convince you that you don't know it or that it isn't true. and to get there, you have to experience and you have to feel. how that applies to here is that you may "know" god always hears/listens (and actually, HOW do we know this? what about ISA 1.15?), but when you're not experiencing that as reality it's hard to believe. maybe the naysayers would be technically correct to say "god always listens; you should/do know this," but the job of fellow xians is to help you believe it and i dunno -- you tell me -- does saying "you should know better" or even "you do know better" help you believe what you "know?" i would say no. i think your feelings are completely valid and i also think GOD thinks your feelings are completely valid. if more people let you know those two things, i wonder how long it would be before your so called "Dark night of the soul" would be over, if for no other reason that you came to believe god was really there and really listening becuz of the people he put in your life that were understanding and responsive and proactive in their love for you when you needed it most. if i lived in your community or went to your church, i'd come over your house and just talk and listen. sort of a disadvantage to message boards of this nature i guess.
jo-anne: I've questioned myself about whether or not this is just an extreme case of navel gazing...
and later,
jo-anne: Sounds a wee bit like nazel gazing doesn't it?
bryan: sorry, don't know the expression.
jo-anne: I am thankful for this board....I haven't hung out around any one person long enough for it to "rise to the surface," but I'm sure it will (we have family camp in two weeks).
bryan: i think these two sentences show why there is a need for what i was talking about above.
jo-anne: I don't want people to feel sorry for me, but I do want to understand, to know that someone is praying, to have someone walk with me in this for a while.
bryan: and to be underSTOOD as well, which i think is a very basic, quintessential human need. i think we are most frustrated when we feel we're misunderstood, which is why we go to such lengths to prevent it.
bryan
Bryan,
Thank you for such a wonderful, thoughtful reply. Replies like this make me think that maybe I am perfectly healthy and normal. The thing that surprises me is that I've never felt this before--ever; it wasn't until I discovered my own passionate relationship with the Father. Seems funny--the timing of this.
I was walking with a lady today and spilled the beans. I told her what I knew to be true in my head, what I cling to, but told her that I don't feel good spiritually--that I don't feel much of anything other than when I am singing on the worship team. I still pray and read my Bible and was actually inspired to write something this last week about the Matthew 26:6-13 passage. I woke at 6 a.m. with these words in my head and knew that I had to get up and write, and it just poured out. So I shared that on Sunday, and it was hard. I've done a few messages, but this time being up there was incredibly hard, but I knew it was inspired by Him and wanted to be obedient in sharing it.
I have to remember that the dark night is just a night and that it will pass, and I hope when it is over that I am more like Him, and that I can encourage others who go through times like this. I can't make things change in my life; I can't change those around me ... I think the realization of that has hit me hard, and has led into this "dark night."
Your email is such an encouragement. You have a great heart; just knowing that you would come over and listen and talk, if you were part of my community, is wonderfully encouraging.
I believe so many things about the Father that I would never have dared believe before, much less tell anyone. I had someone, this past week, tell me that the best way to search something out is to try and disprove it. If you can disprove it, then perhaps you are wrong in your understanding. What do you think of that? So often we approach things trying to prove what we believe; it was a refreshing perspective.
I am listening to a David Crowder CD and it is such a blessing. We are funny creatures aren't we? It's not enough just to know. We want to feel, to experience, but then He created us with that capacity. One of the most reassuring beliefs that I have is that I am made in the image of God, and no matter what is happening around me or what I feel in my life right now, that belief is reassuring.
God bless you.
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
bryan mccarthy
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2005
Total Posts : 179
| Posted 7/26/2005 12:59 AM (GMT -6) | | | hi jo-anne,
jo-anne: Thank you for such a wonderful, thoughtful reply. Replies like this make me think that maybe I am perfectly healthy and normal...Your email is such an encouragement. You have a great heart; just knowing that you would come over and listen and talk, if you were part of my community, is wonderfully encouraging.
bryan: thank you for saying these things. i think for me this is the biggest joy i experience. i love making people feel validated and aware of their immense value. and i also really think that when people are experiencing anything like what you are experiencing or any difficulty really, what they really need is someone who knows how to listen and who knows how to talk. it seems like you have a little bit of a defficiency in this area and that breaks my heart. that's why i said what i said about if i lived in your community. and you are right -- so far as i can tell :P -- you ARE healthy and normal. it's like doc's book "seeing is believing" says over and over again -- when we hide cuz we think we're abnormal in our imperfect experience, we get nowhere. (which reminds me...i think you're doing a bang up job with barry over there on his marriage thread -- you said what i thought were some really comforting and insightful, non-dumb-cliche things.)
thanks especially for saying i have a big heart. i feel like i do and it makes me feel good when other people notice it, especially when they notice it becuz it has helped them. ah yes. this is a nice feeling. :D oh, and before i forget -- you're welcome, by which i mean the original definition: you're entitled becuz i want you to be entitled.
jo-anne: Replies like this make me think that maybe I am perfectly healthy and normal. The thing that surprises me is that I've never felt THIS before--ever; it wasn't until I discovered my own passionate relationship with the Father. Seems funny--the timing of this.
bryan: can you tell me what the "this" is real fast? i might already know, but i just want to make sure i'm understanding you. i would say that by, "this," you mean you've never felt healthy and normal until you discovered your own passionate relationship with the father. since i know this happened quite some time ago for you (based on testimony you've given in your posts on other threads and also the spiritual maturity with which you speak in any given post) and so you've felt healthy and normal since that time, but at the same time you're saying you are being made to think it by replies like mine, i think what you're saying is that your health and normality is something you never felt until you discovered a passionate relationship with the father, but from time to time, you need reminding of this and posts like mine do this for you. do i have it right or am i completely misunderstanding your point?
jo-anne: I had someone, this past week, tell me that the best way to search something out is to try and disprove it. If you can disprove it, then perhaps you are wrong in your understanding. What do you think of that? So often we approach things trying to prove what we believe; it was a refreshing perspective.
bryan: funny you should bring this up. a few months back, i decided that when i read books, i was no longer going to try and remember arguments from them against things i didn't believe in so that i could call them to mind when debating someone of that thinking. i thought, ya know, if i disagree with someone, i want to disagree using my own arguments, not someone elses'. but just today i took this a step further and decided that when reading books i like or agree with, i would mostly only highlight things that seemed off base to me so that i could come back to them and know quickly on which points i differ with authors i largely agree with and thus, know the subtleties of my OWN view. this is not exactly what you were driving at, i realise, but it reminded me of it cuz it was just today that i added this last part and they're kind of similar ideas. also, i think it shows that my answer to your question "what do you think fo that?" is that it sounds good to me.
jo-anne: We are funny creatures aren't we? It's not enough just to know. We want to feel, to experience, but then He created us with that capacity.
bryan: i honestly wouldn't have it any other way.
bryan
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." -- Paul Tillich | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/26/2005 1:51 AM (GMT -6) | | bryan mccarthy said...
hi jo-anne,
jo-anne: Thank you for such a wonderful, thoughtful reply. Replies like this make me think that maybe I am perfectly healthy and normal...Your email is such an encouragement. You have a great heart; just knowing that you would come over and listen and talk, if you were part of my community, is wonderfully encouraging.
bryan: thank you for saying these things. i think for me this is the biggest joy i experience. i love making people feel validated and aware of their immense value. and i also really think that when people are experiencing anything like what you are experiencing or any difficulty really, what they really need is someone who knows how to listen and who knows how to talk. it seems like you have a little bit of a defficiency in this area and that breaks my heart. that's why i said what i said about if i lived in your community. and you are right -- so far as i can tell :P -- you ARE healthy and normal. it's like doc's book "seeing is believing" says over and over again -- when we hide cuz we think we're abnormal in our imperfect experience, we get nowhere. (which reminds me...i think you're doing a bang up job with barry over there on his marriage thread -- you said what i thought were some really comforting and insightful, non-dumb-cliche things.)
thanks especially for saying i have a big heart. i feel like i do and it makes me feel good when other people notice it, especially when they notice it becuz it has helped them. ah yes. this is a nice feeling. :D oh, and before i forget -- you're welcome, by which i mean the original definition: you're entitled becuz i want you to be entitled.
jo-anne: Replies like this make me think that maybe I am perfectly healthy and normal. The thing that surprises me is that I've never felt THIS before--ever; it wasn't until I discovered my own passionate relationship with the Father. Seems funny--the timing of this.
bryan: can you tell me what the "this" is real fast? i might already know, but i just want to make sure i'm understanding you. i would say that by, "this," you mean you've never felt healthy and normal until you discovered your own passionate relationship with the father. since i know this happened quite some time ago for you (based on testimony you've given in your posts on other threads and also the spiritual maturity with which you speak in any given post) and so you've felt healthy and normal since that time, but at the same time you're saying you are being made to think it by replies like mine, i think what you're saying is that your health and normality is something you never felt until you discovered a passionate relationship with the father, but from time to time, you need reminding of this and posts like mine do this for you. do i have it right or am i completely misunderstanding your point?
jo-anne: I had someone, this past week, tell me that the best way to search something out is to try and disprove it. If you can disprove it, then perhaps you are wrong in your understanding. What do you think of that? So often we approach things trying to prove what we believe; it was a refreshing perspective.
bryan: funny you should bring this up. a few months back, i decided that when i read books, i was no longer going to try and remember arguments from them against things i didn't believe in so that i could call them to mind when debating someone of that thinking. i thought, ya know, if i disagree with someone, i want to disagree using my own arguments, not someone elses'. but just today i took this a step further and decided that when reading books i like or agree with, i would mostly only highlight things that seemed off base to me so that i could come back to them and know quickly on which points i differ with authors i largely agree with and thus, know the subtleties of my OWN view. this is not exactly what you were driving at, i realise, but it reminded me of it cuz it was just today that i added this last part and they're kind of similar ideas. also, i think it shows that my answer to your question "what do you think fo that?" is that it sounds good to me.
jo-anne: We are funny creatures aren't we? It's not enough just to know. We want to feel, to experience, but then He created us with that capacity.
bryan: i honestly wouldn't have it any other way.
bryan
Hi,
I am more encouraged tonight. My heart feels lighter, and re-reading the thread on marriage was a good thing. That thread began more than a year ago, and it would be wonderful if Barry would add his testimony of how things have changed since that time. It is so easy, when the chips are down (I'm a cliche queen actually!)  to forget the advise we've given to others. To answer one of your questions, in part, before the dramatic changes in my life--a cascade of changes, really--my life was like Alice in Wonderland before Oz; it was black and white, and then all of a sudden it was technicolour. That might sound impossible, but the change was that dramatic. I spent most of my life, including my adult life, in fear. I suffered incredibly as a child, and one of the most powerful and life-changing experiences I had came about as a result of cataphatic prayer (sp?). When I read Seeing is Believing, I could relate--totally. From that experience I wrote a book, A Wing Tip, about my emergence from this "cocoon" I was in. Anyway, you're right; I really wasn't living before these changes, and I had never had a passionate relationship with the Father before then. I never understood my worth in Him, or how He loved me. I discovered a sacred romance and my spiritual life felt like it really began. I knew what it meant to be "free indeed," and to experience the abundant life. Hear the but? It's coming. It turned my marriage upside down, as evidenced in that thread on Marriage. It has been three years now of working through the changes in my life. When one person in a relationship dramatically changes, it changes everything.
When I said, the "timing of this," what I mean is, "Why after finally discovering this passionate relationship with the Father?" Perhaps it is because of the new depth of that relationship. Before that I pretty much did whatever I was told and believed whatever I was told. I don't want to give the impression that I'm rebellious now; I'm not. But I finally knew my worth and knew that I deserved to be treated kindly, with gentleness, and in the beginning it may have been a little like the pendulum that swings all the way the other direction and needs to find a balance somewhere. I admit that. But this whole thing blindsided me and I am still trying to find my bearings.
The journey is worth it though, even with this "dark night."
I'm going to try what my friend recommended--about trying to disprove what you believe, to see if it is really worthy of believing. Perhaps I should have done that with Open Theism. The Open View made sense to me. I never understood the problem of evil before that; it just didn't make sense with who I thought the Father must be, with His character.
I've been labelled "whacked" in my family for holding this view, and I think if I were more vocal about it I'd probably be labelled a heretic. I'm careful about expressing my beliefs. Relationships are important. The Spirit is more important/love is more important than being right.
Thanks once again. Interesting way of reading. I'll have to remember that one.
I loved
Is God To Blame? Even made it to the conference in Shipshewana, IN It was the first time in my life that I travelled alone (too afraid before that). It was another confirmation of the changes in my life.
God bless,
Jo-Anne
(Listening to David Crowder all day--what a blessing it has been).
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DNOTS Survivor
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 7/26/2005 1:59 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Hi,
I'm a long time reader of the board, but have not had a reason to register until now. YEAH, I think.
I too am in the Dark Night of the Soul (for the second time), hence the user name DNOTS Survivor. It HURTS!!!
This is my second time in the dark, and this time around it was triggered by a series of medical tests (MRI's, spinal taps, eye exams, etc) that took place in the period of about 2 weeks in late April. I pretty much lost it….the prospect of having a potentially debilitating disease put me over the edge.
As it turned out, I am fine, but it forced the question (prompted by the Holy Spirit no doubt) "If I am a Christian and supposedly have faith in God to see me through any situation, then why did I respond in this way?". I didn't have an answer to that question….which scared me even more. In addition to answering that question, I was faced with addressing a serious stronghold in my life (fear of disease and death). It seemed to all boil down to trust…..why don't I trust God to have my best interests at heart. And, even if I did trust him, what would stop Satan or just the happenstance of life to keep bad things from happening. Intellectually I understood that bad things happen to all of us, but for some reason I wasn't worried about it for myself. (Perhaps this is part DNOTS and part The Second Journey as Manning refers to in his book Ragamuffin Gospel).
At any rate, what God was going to use for good, Satan (of course) was determined to use to destroy me. Literally, for the entire month of May, I laid in bed and cried for at least 3 hours every day. The rest of the day was spent reading the Bible, rebuking Satan, and begging God to deliver me from this terrible place. I felt like I was in a tug of war (me being the rope)….Satan on one end and God on the other. I couldn't understand why God wouldn't just give the rope a tug and rescue me from Satan's attacks. I felt as though, while He was there, He wasn't tugging very hard. I knew he could very easily rescue me, and I felt like I had done everything I could to try and facilitate God's healing me? (hmmmm).
You should know that I am a very results driven person (control freak, in other words), and I was determined that this wasn't going to last long and there would be some good out of it (otherwise, what a waste)!! I have sought out every prayer ministry and deliverance ministry I could find. I would feel better for about a day and then Satan would move in and attack again. Then, I would be filled with guilt that I wasn't able to get through this, just me and God. I started to wonder if I was depending too much on outside sources to help me "get faith".
My family and friends were pretty weirded out as they had NEVER seen me in such despair; no one knew what to do for me (least of all my husband), except pray like crazy (even my dad who I can't say for sure is saved). It was comforting to know how many people were in prayer over my situation….many many people I didn't even know (mom and aunts all had their Sunday school classes praying as well). What I realized at some point during my month of endless crying is that God was shaking things up, he was doing a work in me that I would one day look back and appreciate. So, believe it or not, I stopped praying for relief (well, sometimes I still prayed for relief) and started praying that God would keep me in that place until his work was done.
It's been nearly 3 months now and I've already begun to see the fruit in terms of relationship reconciliation as well as some repentance that was due on my part. I have spent the last month praying that God would just fill me with the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit would actively be producing the Fruit of the Spirit in me, such that I would see a difference. I've also spent a lot of time praying that I would EXPERIENCE God's love, as I think that has a lot to do with my trust issues. If I can't comprehend and accept God's flawless love for me, how can I honestly turn my life over to him? Lastly, I now have an intense understanding of why Greg spends so much time preaching about community!! While I have lots of relatives there to pray with me (and am very thankful for that), my husband and I don't have a group of other couples to really turn to in this type of situation. It was really lonely feeling at times wanting so badly to share this pain with others who understood and shared my belief in Jesus.
Through my Bible study and book reading I have been turned on to this FREEDOM and ABUNDANT LIFE that God wants for us. I want that so desperately for myself, and I'm trusting God to do whatever he has to do to get me there….before heaven, preferably. I'm still pretty uptight about disease (although I am slowly working through it with a counselor at Dynamics of Growth), and I have difficulty finding the line where my effort ends and God's begins, but the beautiful thing is that when I screw up, God is there to meet me and make it right. I love him so much for that!!! I look forward to him finishing his work in me (for now), and being able to feel real joy again!!
Jo-anne, I will be praying for you!!
Tammy Post Edited (DNOTS Survivor) : 7/26/2005 4:44:21 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
|
1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 7/28/2005 12:02 AM (GMT -6) | | DNOTS Survivor said...
Hi,
I'm a long time reader of the board, but have not had a reason to register until now. YEAH, I think.
I too am in the Dark Night of the Soul (for the second time), hence the user name DNOTS Survivor. It HURTS!!!
This is my second time in the dark, and this time around it was triggered by a series of medical tests (MRI's, spinal taps, eye exams, etc) that took place in the period of about 2 weeks in late April. I pretty much lost it….the prospect of having a potentially debilitating disease put me over the edge.
As it turned out, I am fine, but it forced the question (prompted by the Holy Spirit no doubt) "If I am a Christian and supposedly have faith in God to see me through any situation, then why did I respond in this way?". I didn't have an answer to that question….which scared me even more. In addition to answering that question, I was faced with addressing a serious stronghold in my life (fear of disease and death). It seemed to all boil down to trust…..why don't I trust God to have my best interests at heart. And, even if I did trust him, what would stop Satan or just the happenstance of life to keep bad things from happening. Intellectually I understood that bad things happen to all of us, but for some reason I wasn't worried about it for myself. (Perhaps this is part DNOTS and part The Second Journey as Manning refers to in his book Ragamuffin Gospel).
At any rate, what God was going to use for good, Satan (of course) was determined to use to destroy me. Literally, for the entire month of May, I laid in bed and cried for at least 3 hours every day. The rest of the day was spent reading the Bible, rebuking Satan, and begging God to deliver me from this terrible place. I felt like I was in a tug of war (me being the rope)….Satan on one end and God on the other. I couldn't understand why God wouldn't just give the rope a tug and rescue me from Satan's attacks. I felt as though, while He was there, He wasn't tugging very hard. I knew he could very easily rescue me, and I felt like I had done everything I could to try and facilitate God's healing me? (hmmmm).
You should know that I am a very results driven person (control freak, in other words), and I was determined that this wasn't going to last long and there would be some good out of it (otherwise, what a waste)!! I have sought out every prayer ministry and deliverance ministry I could find. I would feel better for about a day and then Satan would move in and attack again. Then, I would be filled with guilt that I wasn't able to get through this, just me and God. I started to wonder if I was depending too much on outside sources to help me "get faith".
My family and friends were pretty weirded out as they had NEVER seen me in such despair; no one knew what to do for me (least of all my husband), except pray like crazy (even my dad who I can't say for sure is saved). It was comforting to know how many people were in prayer over my situation….many many people I didn't even know (mom and aunts all had their Sunday school classes praying as well). What I realized at some point during my month of endless crying is that God was shaking things up, he was doing a work in me that I would one day look back and appreciate. So, believe it or not, I stopped praying for relief (well, sometimes I still prayed for relief) and started praying that God would keep me in that place until his work was done.
It's been nearly 3 months now and I've already begun to see the fruit in terms of relationship reconciliation as well as some repentance that was due on my part. I have spent the last month praying that God would just fill me with the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit would actively be producing the Fruit of the Spirit in me, such that I would see a difference. I've also spent a lot of time praying that I would EXPERIENCE God's love, as I think that has a lot to do with my trust issues. If I can't comprehend and accept God's flawless love for me, how can I honestly turn my life over to him? Lastly, I now have an intense understanding of why Greg spends so much time preaching about community!! While I have lots of relatives there to pray with me (and am very thankful for that), my husband and I don't have a group of other couples to really turn to in this type of situation. It was really lonely feeling at times wanting so badly to share this pain with others who understood and shared my belief in Jesus.
Through my Bible study and book reading I have been turned on to this FREEDOM and ABUNDANT LIFE that God wants for us. I want that so desperately for myself, and I'm trusting God to do whatever he has to do to get me there….before heaven, preferably. I'm still pretty uptight about disease (although I am slowly working through it with a counselor at Dynamics of Growth), and I have difficulty finding the line where my effort ends and God's begins, but the beautiful thing is that when I screw up, God is there to meet me and make it right. I love him so much for that!!! I look forward to him finishing his work in me (for now), and being able to feel real joy again!!
Jo-anne, I will be praying for you!!
Tammy
Tammy, thank you for your prayers, and your honesty, and for being so vulnerable as to share your own experience. Things like what you have shared encourage others because they realize that it's ok not to be superhuman. Sometimes I think we expect far too much from each other and heap guilt and shame on top of what is already a soul-sifting experience. You have shown that you can come out the other end refined, and shining into a world of darkness.
I was sitting waiting for a Dr this afternoon and reading to my daughter from a book called Breaking the Cycle by Dr James Richards. It is the wisest, most wonderful book on transformation that I have read. I read it about a year ago, and now she is reading it. She was feeling too ill to read, so I re-read a portion of what I had already read, and it was encouraging. We also heap expectations on ourselves in this journey, expectations that He never intended for us. Perhaps that is why the verse, "Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light"?
This thread is encouraging. I hope others find it encouraging as well. I took a break today from my usual walking schedule. I'm preparing soup for 60 people for family camp, and that is a joy. I think that we need to find things that are a joy. I hope the weekend will be a time of refreshing. I've decided to spend time with Him, and spend time with those whom the Father would have me spend time with.
I'm so glad that you are well. I know that physical health can be frightening at times, and it is in those times that we realize how important that is to us. I'm sure I would have been afraid as well in your situation.
God bless,
Jo-Anne
If God had a wallet, He'd keep your picture in it. | | Back to Top | | |
|
DNOTS Survivor
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2005
Total Posts : 6
| Posted 8/1/2005 5:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Ok, I need some serious help. I'll start with a little background…. I am turning 36 next month. This is the age that my mother was when I can first remember thinking she is old. And, my daughter is starting to look at me in the same way....I can see it in her eyes. I don't like that. As a result of this aging thing and the above mentioned medical scare that I experienced in April, I was flung face down into the pit. I've been painfully working my way out, but seem to be stuck. You see, I have a terrible fear of disease and death (as mentioned above). Not because I'm unsure of my eternal destiny (not at all), but because I have this sickly feeling that I am going to get a disease and die at a young age. I don't want to get a disease and die at a young age. I've tried to figure out the source of the fear so I can apply the TNT techniques to get rid of it, but I can't figure out the source. I think it's just that I HATE to be disappointed, and I figure if I assume it will happen, then I'll be less dissappointed when it does happen (notice I said when and not if). In the meantime I'm miserable as I can't get excited about anything in life. YIKES!! It's so irrational, I know.
I think it in part is a lack of trust in God….although, I do trust God to make "all things work together for good".…for Him…..for me, however, it's not good to get a disease and die. I know that sounds awful, but that's how I feel. Also, I wonder if it's a problem with my ability/willingness to accept God's love. I know He loves me, and I have immeasurable worth, but it's never resonated with me. Then, of course, I read that Faith + Hope = Trust….so, perhaps it a lack of hope now….ugh!!
I have spent the last 3 months in the Bible and every book I can find that talks about faith and trust, etc. and I feel only more confused as everyone has their own little spin on things. The books are a wonderful resource and I have found things in all of them that really touches home with me, but in trying to employ all of these suggestions, I feel like I'm losing my mind…..and I'm no closer to accepting God's love, having hope in His promises, grow my faith, develop complete trust in God……and eradicating the fear of disease and death.
I could use a word of encouragement.....
Thanks for your ear.
TammyPost Edited (DNOTS Survivor) : 8/1/2005 5:22:11 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
| 31 posts in this thread.
Viewing Page : 1 2 |
| Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 10:43 AM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|