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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/30/2005 1:00 PM (GMT -6) |   | After thinkin more about the movie "Hustle and Flow", there are some things I notice myself thinking. Allow me to spit some of this. Some real stuff. These are more my thoughts than about the movie.
1) I miss the South SOOOOOOOOO much!
I miss that buttery, syrupy sound. The smells. The attitude. The southern hospitality. (That Southern Comfort and Coke. Heh!) Gettin' crunk in the parking lots and clubs. Mama Georgia's home cookin'. Chicken. Chitlins. Greens. Yams. Sonic Drive-In. Real Tex-Mex. Down home prayer meetings. This Texas boy needs to get up outta here more often for real. As cool as it is, this "Minnesota nice", Scandanavian culture is about to drive me crazy!!
2) I'm tired of conforming to Euro-American upper-middle to middle-class sensibilities all the time. Unfortunately, you have to do so to a certain extent just to make it in this country. I realize that...but watchin' this movie just got me more in touch with the general underlying frustration I have with having to do it. I remember back when my daddy would take us to the park where all the "folk" were hangin out. Drinkin' Colt 45s and thangs. Barbecue. It was good times. Sometimes, all I want is to experience that again.
I love all people. Seriously. But sometimes...being in a predominantly Euro-American, middle-class context all the time as an African-American male from a lower-to-middle class context...it's taxing. It just is. I hope that doesn't offend some of you. That's not my intent. Just me being honest.
3) Pimps have it hard, but hos do too. There was one time long time ago when I solicited a lady of the night for a $10 bump. Before I let her do her thing, I remember her talking to me about her baby she just had. And the husband that was keeping it while she was on the street. Back then, part of me didn't give a damn. Hell, she could have been lyin' about all that anyway. (She did look kinda strung out) But part of me fell sorry for her. Real sorry. But I still only gave her $10 and didn't even say goodbye when she was done. I think about her from time to time, pray she and her baby are all right, and hope she can one day forgive me (and other young horn dogs like the one I was) for participating in her objectification like that. And milking her need to get food for the baby for my own sexual pleasure. Damn. Stuff is so f'd up, yo. God help us.
4) Some people may say the movie is "too graphic" or something like that. All I can say is this: for much of it, IT'S REAL. Without condoning lifestyles or judging them. From the booty-shakin club scene...to the parkin lot full of loud cars...to the f'd up lookin' duplex that DJay was livin' in. That stuff is real. It actually amazes me that some people have never experienced things like that before. But I know that's because of where I come from. Some people probably feel that way about going to Disneyworld.("You've never been to Disneyworld? Wow. I thought everyone's gone there" --actual quote told to me) So, you may not like what it says about our so-called civilized culture that women have to trick and shake breasts to pay rent and feed unfathered kids and that ni*#as have to fight off daily despair by gettin' high, pimpin' girls, and chillin on the corner. But know, at least from my experience and perspective, that it's real.
5) If Terrence Howard doesn't at least get an Oscar nod for this...it's just pitiful.
All this said, check with your conscience, and if it's ok, go holla at this movie. It's an EXCELLENT piece of work. The screenplay. The acting. EVERYTHING. Just check the critics! It's inspirational. It's saddening. Hell, it's life.
www.hustleandflow.com/
Later,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 7/30/2005 1:11:35 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 7/31/2005 6:14 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...After thinkin more about the movie "Hustle and Flow", there are some things I notice myself thinking. Allow me to spit some of this. Some real stuff. These are more my thoughts than about the movie. 1) I miss the South SOOOOOOOOO much! I miss that buttery, syrupy sound. The smells. The attitude. The southern hospitality. (That Southern Comfort and Coke. Heh!) Gettin' crunk in the parking lots and clubs. Mama Georgia's home cookin'. Chicken. Chitlins. Greens. Yams. Sonic Drive-In. Real Tex-Mex. Down home prayer meetings. This Texas boy needs to get up outta here more often for real. As cool as it is, this "Minnesota nice", Scandanavian culture is about to drive me crazy!! 2) I'm tired of conforming to Euro-American upper-middle to middle-class sensibilities all the time. Unfortunately, you have to do so to a certain extent just to make it in this country. I realize that...but watchin' this movie just got me more in touch with the general underlying frustration I have with having to do it. I remember back when my daddy would take us to the park where all the "folk" were hangin out. Drinkin' Colt 45s and thangs. Barbecue. It was good times. Sometimes, all I want is to experience that again. I love all people. Seriously. But sometimes...being in a predominantly Euro-American, middle-class context all the time as an African-American male from a lower-to-middle class context...it's taxing. It just is. I hope that doesn't offend some of you. That's not my intent. Just me being honest. 3) Pimps have it hard, but hos do too. There was one time long time ago when I solicited a lady of the night for a $10 bump. Before I let her do her thing, I remember her talking to me about her baby she just had. And the husband that was keeping it while she was on the street. Back then, part of me didn't give a damn. Hell, she could have been lyin' about all that anyway. (She did look kinda strung out) But part of me fell sorry for her. Real sorry. But I still only gave her $10 and didn't even say goodbye when she was done. I think about her from time to time, pray she and her baby are all right, and hope she can one day forgive me (and other young horn dogs like the one I was) for participating in her objectification like that. And milking her need to get food for the baby for my own sexual pleasure. Damn. Stuff is so f'd up, yo. God help us. 4) Some people may say the movie is "too graphic" or something like that. All I can say is this: for much of it, IT'S REAL. Without condoning lifestyles or judging them. From the booty-shakin club scene...to the parkin lot full of loud cars...to the f'd up lookin' duplex that DJay was livin' in. That stuff is real. It actually amazes me that some people have never experienced things like that before. But I know that's because of where I come from. Some people probably feel that way about going to Disneyworld.("You've never been to Disneyworld? Wow. I thought everyone's gone there" --actual quote told to me) So, you may not like what it says about our so-called civilized culture that women have to trick and shake breasts to pay rent and feed unfathered kids and that ni*#as have to fight off daily despair by gettin' high, pimpin' girls, and chillin on the corner. But know, at least from my experience and perspective, that it's real. 5) If Terrence Howard doesn't at least get an Oscar nod for this...it's just pitiful. All this said, check with your conscience, and if it's ok, go holla at this movie. It's an EXCELLENT piece of work. The screenplay. The acting. EVERYTHING. Just check the critics! It's inspirational. It's saddening. Hell, it's life. www.hustleandflow.com/Later,
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/31/2005 6:52 AM (GMT -6) | | Selah:
hmmm.
What? Is it the movie? Scope out the critics' thoughts. It's gettin' crazy acclaim. And it's ironic too. And the people that worked on this film had to go through MAD drama just to get it made because many big-wigs in Hollywood wouldn't back it. It's speculated that many didn't believe that "the public" would care about seeing a film about a African-American Memphis pimp living with 3 prostitutes trying to find redemption through following his dream of getting into the music business. Ya think? Heh.
Critics' views
movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&cf=critic&id=1808624381
or...
Is it my thoughts? Too grimy and gutta? Nah. Can't be THAT. We all knew that I haven't been saved all my life, true? God has brought me from a MIGHTY long way. And we all know that living in a largely racialized, classist (AND sexist) society such as ours DOES have its effects on the people that live within it...riiiiight? 
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 7/31/2005 7:38:16 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 7/31/2005 11:57 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...
This Texas boy needs to get up outta here more often for real. As cool as it is, this "Minnesota nice", Scandanavian culture is about to drive me crazy!!
2) I'm tired of conforming to Euro-American upper-middle to middle-class sensibilities all the time. Unfortunately, you have to do so to a certain extent just to make it in this country. I realize that...but watchin' this movie just got me more in touch with the general underlying frustration I have with having to do it. I remember back when my daddy would take us to the park where all the "folk" were hangin out. Drinkin' Colt 45s and thangs. Barbecue. It was good times. Sometimes, all I want is to experience that again.
I love all people. Seriously. But sometimes...being in a predominantly Euro-American, middle-class context all the time as an African-American male from a lower-to-middle class context...it's taxing. It just is. I hope that doesn't offend some of you. That's not my intent. Just me being honest. Anna and I watched this last night upon your recommendation. For me, of course, it was all quite foreign; you know me, I'm one of those scandinavian upper-middle class white folks.
I'm pretty ignorant of the particular culture portrayed in the film, but perhaps I do have a little experience with being foreign. The sentiments you've described are pretty typical to what I've seen when I lived overseas. Many of the Americans I knew experienced what could be described, perhaps simplistically, as being homesick. There was a subtle resentment that built over time for the host culture. These bleepin' Russians! UGH!! (My brother -- long term in China -- has experienced the same.) We were exhorted by the experienced ones to remember, "it's not wrong, it's just different". While mental assent was given, a living reality was not often achieved. "It's not just different, it's STUPID!" Is this resonating at all with you?
What I'm about to say may sound naive or fake or whatever, but I'm completely sincere. For me, I honestly never experienced this sort of homesickness. Sure I had the occaisional craving for Mountain Dew and tortilla chips, but that's pretty small. I had such a sense of time slipping away; each second, each moment, I wanted to stop the sand from slipping through the hourglass. Catch this moment, and now this moment, to remember forever. I knew that dreaded day was coming when I would have to return "home". Oh! I drank in the moments cleaning my laundry in the bathtub with a stick! I drank in the moments dealing with the inexplicable idiosyncrasies. I drank in the beautiful hearts of the people I came to know and love. I drank in the language. It's so easy even now, more than ten years later, to tear up in wistful longing for Lithuania. Honestly, there's a very real sense in which I am not at home even now. I'm a stranger in a strange land.
During that year I read again for the first time 1st Thessalonians. I renamed it for myself to "1st Lithuanians". Paul had such a longing, a love, for them! I could understand this now from the inside.
Back to the movie. My instinctive reaction was, "that's not just different, that's WRONG". But as I put on Christ, it all morphs. I'm outraged at the damage that the enemy has done! I'm agonized that any girl anywhere would live in situations like that. I'm outraged at the men who perpetuate this evil. I'm agonized that their best hope of getting out was this million to one shot at making some music. I'm overcome with tears, crying out for God's Kingdom to come!
I'll hope and pray for you, Meph, that you will find a passion for this foreign culture you find yourself in, or that God will bring you to the place where you will have this passion. I've seen the other side where God's people start living in silent (or not so silent) resentment and it sucks the life out of them.
Post Edited (Corey) : 7/31/2005 12:06:34 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/31/2005 5:00 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Back to the movie. My instinctive reaction was, "that's not just different, that's WRONG". But as I put on Christ, it all morphs. I'm outraged at the damage that the enemy has done! I'm agonized that any girl anywhere would live in situations like that. I'm outraged at the men who perpetuate this evil. I'm agonized that their best hope of getting out was this million to one shot at making some music. I'm overcome with tears, crying out for God's Kingdom to come!
Agreed. Come, Lord Jesus! The dysfunction is so systemic and lies on so many levels, it just makes more sense to hold back on judgment and go more towards understanding, even as one recognizes the dysfunction. And the Enemy works on ALL those levels. And the worst thing anyone can do is to try to diagnose those problems as being simple or just someone being "wrong" when that person doesn't even begin to have the context to understand doing that "wrong" might be the ONLY AVAILABLE OPTION another person feels is open to them. Things may be "wrong" indeed...but is that the only way that person feels they can survive...and WHY do that feel that way? Tough questions.
You can't imagine what kind of conversation you can get into by picking a random situation like a hooker walking the street at night and asking the serious question: Why is this happening? REALLY. Why is this happening?
If people who are working for the Kingdom of God don't ask these questions...and understand the depth and complexity of the answers, solutions will be short-lived...if active at all.
***************************************
Corey
I'm pretty ignorant of the particular culture portrayed in the film, but perhaps I do have a little experience with being foreign. The sentiments you've described are pretty typical to what I've seen when I lived overseas. Many of the Americans I knew experienced what could be described, perhaps simplistically, as being homesick. There was a subtle resentment that built over time for the host culture. These bleepin' Russians! UGH!! (My brother -- long term in China -- has experienced the same.) We were exhorted by the experienced ones to remember, "it's not wrong, it's just different". While mental assent was given, a living reality was not often achieved. "It's not just different, it's STUPID!" Is this resonating at all with you?
Yep. What you are talking about happens quite frequently as "culture shock" or some derivative. And I can definitely say that I have "culture shock" when it comes to "Minnesota nice" and the Scandinavian culture stuff up here. Definitely! I'm direct as all get out and the more reserved, sometimes passive-aggressive tendencies here sometimes bewilder me to no end. However, I realize that it's not, as you say, a wrong way of doing things. It's just drastically different than what I'm used to. Just like some other countries feel that Americans stand too close, are too obsessed about punctuality, and are too brash. It's not that the American way of thinking is wrong. It's just that American ways of doing things are WAY different than other places. So, I am learning to respect the Minnesota culture lots more now...even if I can't understand it many times. I've grown in that since being here.
However, my sentiment encompasses more than this "culture shock". There something separate from this, yet related. It encompasses the feelings of a person of color who has, for much of his academic and vocational careers, had to acclimate and deal with Euro-American upper-middle to middle class sensibilities AS an African-American lower to middle class person. Living between two worlds, as it were. Where you've have to adjust your diction around people you really identify with because you were "talkin' White" while making sure to stay away from those "silly Ebonics words" (actual heard statement) in certain academics and work contexts. As dichotomizing as this can be, you learn to get used to it somehow...and try to avoid some serious sense of self-disdain in the process. And we're not even dealing with the socialized racism and classism that goes on in all forms of American media!
But anyway...Even though I've had to deal with this all of my life, I usually had an enclave of identification that I could go back to. I had tons of family down South and I could always come "home" when I could spend more time with those who identified with my "struggles" much more. Whether it be friends or family. I was always connected to my socio-ethnic context in some meaningful way.
[Note: To see why this identification is SO important, please see this book:
"Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria? And Other Conversations about Race: A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity" by Beverly Tatum.
ESSENTIAL for understanding the complexity of this issue.]
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465083617/qid=1122843614/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0145387-6151967?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Anyways...
When I first moved up here, things RADICALLY changed. The vast majority of people that related to on a daily basis were of the same type that I've always dealt with in academic and work situations...but NOW I had no real link to that other part of my psyche, for they were all miles away. Basically, I ended up spending pretty much ALL my time in the "other" context. When I say all the time, I mean that. ALL the time. And it's not that people weren't extremely nice. They were. But this becomes a situation where something that you've always felt being somewhat stifled now seems to be on the verge of being totally submerged. And even if you make the conscious decision to "stay true" to who you are...there is always the threat of assimilation by a dominant culture that you have to wrestle with.
So...let's set the stage.
You have a lower to middle-class African American male from central Texas who's always largely been in Southern working-class, ethnically diverse contexts at home, yet always felt like he's lived between worlds because of his academic and work pursuits (which mainly held to Euro-American upper-middle to middle-class sensibilities) and struggling to keep identity and finding shelter in his family and friends who could identify...
...moving to St. Paul, Minnesota, knowing hardly anyone, living and working in an particular environment that is permeated with northern upper-middle to middle-class Anglo-American culture and having LITTLE TO NO hearty interaction with people that he could identify with ethnically or socio-economically.
Is it possible that, over time, there'd be a little stress there? Do you think? Just maybe, right?
Right.
THIS is one of the things the movie helped me get more in touch with. Sometimes, I'm tired. I get tired of dealing. Sometimes I just take off and go to certain areas of north Minneapolis, get out and walk around. No real destination. Just walk around and see folk. Can you guess why? Sometimes, I just hang out by the local 'hood store on Maryland to see kids of different ethnicities playing on the sidewalk...even though I don't know many of them. Can you guess part of the reason why?
At any rate, my frustration goes deeper than just "culture shock". If anything, the culture shock has an intensification effect on a deeper reality that I have dealt with much of my life. And that deeper reality is NOT unique to me, I'm sure. You saw the movie "Crash", right, Corey?
To be sure, I wouldn't be UP HERE in MN and where I am currently if I didn't feel called and didn't truly want to be a part of a bridging organization doing Kingdom work. However, there is a toll that occurs for all who participate in such a venture. I suppose this is mine.
So...
**************************************
Corey:
I'll hope and pray for you, Meph, that you will find a passion for this foreign culture you find yourself in, or that God will bring you to the place where you will have this passion. I've seen the other side where God's people start living in silent (or not so silent) resentment and it sucks the life out of them.
My issue is not nearly as much Minnesota culture in and of itself as it is the intensification effect upon a reality I've been dealing with for a long time. My culture shock with Minnesota and my fatigue with conforming to Euro-American upper-middle to middle class culture are DISTINCT, though RELATED things because of my current context. I hope you can get where I'm coming from here. Thanks for the prayer.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 7/31/2005 11:00 PM (GMT -6) | | DragonChaser:
Meph, you are tired of not keeping it real up in the field?
Sup, man. Seems like you're feeling where I'm comin' from a little bit! Don't get it twisted though, yo. It's not that I'm not keepin' things real. It's just the constant tension of having that reality be so discordant with my surroundings so much of the time. It does get taxing. You probably know what I'm talking about.
*********************
DragonChaser:
Keep it real in Minnesota Meph. That’s your calling.
Always, man. To the grave. 'Preciate the encouragement, man. I pray you get just the job you're looking for, too!
Holla,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Starkman
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/2/2005 11:10 AM (GMT -6) | | |
Meph,
Dude, there's things on my mind here. You've (once again!) brought up something that I think is highly, highly important, particularly with regard to the black community in general, but it is hardly ever talked about.
You know, I can talk over the phone with a philippino, a Japanese, Chinese or any other person of an ethnic background (assuming now that they are American born and/or with no accent) and not be able to notice any difference in speech patterns or sounds than that of a white person. But most all the time if the person is black, I can spot it immediately. It is, I'd imagine, because there is something very distinct in the make up the throat, vocals and mouth of the black nationalitiy that comes out quite predominately when speaking. Further, there is often times a pronounced style of speaking (intonation, delivery, etc) that is noticably "black," even from the most refined speakers (I think of actors like Sydney Poiteir and, of course, James Earl Jones). You just can't miss the fact that these are black speakers. But you'd seldom detect if someone was Korean or Laocian or any other nationality (again, this is assuming the person is American born or has no accent).
Now, for whatever reasons, there is also something very distinct in most black folk with regard to "staying together." Not every black person feels this way, but it is very dominant in the nationality. I'm not talking about that feeling of "Oh, boy, I'm in the wrong neighborhood," or "I'm not comfortable here." No, this is something quite different than that. And once again, if a philippino, Chinese or Japanese person is American born, most all the time these folk don't even think twice about wanting to hang with their on nationalities. It's just not in them to want to do that.
I once remember (while I lived in a fairly white predominate neighborhood) this young gal who was half white and half black. She was just as white as the next person, but she was also perplexed (she only lived with her dad who was white). In her teens she started going through an identity crisis and wanted to be around both white and black folk. She was torn because this didn't seem to settle it all for her. I mean, here she was trying to make sense of who she was and where she belonged. You will seldom see a Japanese or Chinese American or any other person of ethnic persuasion go through this kind of struggle. It just isn't an issue to those folk, be they part, half or full blooded ethnic. You just don't see the identity issues in any ethnic like you do in the black nationality.
I think all of this goes much further back for the black for black folk than just wanting to be back home, near friends, near familiarities. I think it's something God has built into the black race or it's been carried since the days of slavery or both. I was once a musician in an all-black (well, except for me!) funk band in downtown Oakland, California. Coming out of a rehursal, I heard some of the band's kids playing together. There was the constant "nigger" calling between them, a way to make a statement of identity, particulary, and sadly, in view of the racial discriminations that have been shown to black folk for these many years. These kids were perpetuating something about that "hanging" with each other. Even though there was the context of discrimination coming through as the backdrop, there was still that "something" about black folk haning with each other.
It seems that this matter could hardly be brought up without someone, black or white, ignorantly yelling "DISCRIMINATION!" Far from it. We must face the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the an interconnection within a nationality. Nothing whatsoever. And if it is only strong in black folk, man, it should be something that is celebrated, not looked down upon. As a white male, I can't say that I have or would have the same desire Meph is talking about were I to be in a totally other ethnic environment. I can say for sure that I would miss and long for the regularites and familiarities of my current settings: the food, the comforts, all those kinds of things. Those are the connections I have with my nationality, I guess you could say. But it's not really an issue to me to be around white folk. As for white folk who are just plain discriminatory or who claim they like being around only white folk, I don't think it's so much an issue of wanting to hang with white folk in the same sense Meph is talking about as it is a cocky sense of "I'm better because I'm white."
Anyway, I think it's a precious connection you have, Meph, with your nationality. We should all celebrate what connections we have with our nationalities. God didn't make us all a bit different to ignore these connections.
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?Post Edited (Starkman) : 8/2/2005 3:10:24 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/3/2005 5:40 AM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Is it the movie?... Is it my thoughts? Too grimy and gutta? Nah. Can't be THAT. We all knew that I haven't been saved all my life, true? God has brought me from a MIGHTY long way. And we all know that living in a largely racialized, classist (AND sexist) society such as ours DOES have its effects on the people that live within it...riiiiight?
Hi Meph, No, it's not the movie. I think I needed a couple days to digest your "thoughts" though... Here's the thing. As I've shared with you before, I LOVE your authenticity. Most of the time I find it Very VERY refreshing. Lately, however, I've been thinking about how with ministry comes responsibility - especially ministry to children. I'm realizing that when we decide to share OUR thoughts in a public forum such as this, word gets out to whomever and we become known for what we share. This is problemtic because - typically - these people are not in on our life other than what they read or hear from our thoughts online. Anyway, right or wrong, I'm tightening my lip online and for the sake of children who look up to you, I DO pray you reconsider the necessity of public gritty-ness. (I struggled with your message on sunday too!!! It seems to me that the example of "kiddy porn" could have been changed to something more ambiguous and less gritty - something for the adults rather than the children I saw in the front row) ... maybe I am too much of a "churchlady" but I just don't get it. The way I think of it now is: If only one kid gets the wrong message - the cost is too high. ~for what it's worth, selah PS sorry for the formatting, I'm typing on a webtv thing. It's the best I can do for now.
Post Edited (selah) : 8/3/2005 6:28:18 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/3/2005 9:33 AM (GMT -6) | | Yo, Selah.
Would you mind if I put this on another thread? This is part of a HUUUGE issue that I wrestle with with certain aspects of the Church. How real is "too real"? And when is that the case? What are the contexts for that?
I was just talking to someone about how I always thought it was ironic that in all of the Southern Baptist Black churches that I was in, sex and pornography was NEVER a critical subject of sermons or teachings...even though teenage pregnancy and pornography addiction were RAMPANT in those churches! I always found it being so non-sensical.
But anyways...
Great topic!
Let's call it...."Realness and Church Life"
Whaddaya think?
PS: I'm suprised. Didn't Doc talk specifically about masturbation in one of his sermons...or something like that?
Oh, by the way...you may want to check out the XXX-Church ministry that works with people to get them out of the porn-addicted lifestyle.
www.xxxchurch.org
The #1 Christian porn site.
Get to know this ministry...you'll be hearing about it...soon...trust me...heh...
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 8/3/2005 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Hi Meph,
Sure, you can do whatever you want with this thread. The thing I'm trying to make clear is that from my
perspective it is NOT so much that the CHURCH can't handle any of these things. They can and they should. Rail against the crowd ...all that. I just think it's one thing for adults and another for youth. Children aren't resourced enough to distinguish between your past "grittyness" and now. They may even think grit is cool... That's my deal.
ok no more from me on this,
love as usual,
selah
PS I'm sorry for bringing up something that happened at wh. (I think I broke a rule) It should have been handled in a private conversation anyway. Apologies to everyone -especially you mephi. I removed the reference.
Post Edited (selah) : 8/3/2005 7:34:13 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/3/2005 4:08 PM (GMT -6) | | For any interested...
It's "7/31/2005 – The Right Heart for Redemptive Community"
www.whchurch.org/content/page_173.htm
Listen and discern for yourself, dear reader.
Mad love,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Truth Aficionado
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Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 8/5/2005 1:00 PM (GMT -6) | | |
That was great, Meph. By the way, what was the name of the correctional institution you gave that sermon?
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/5/2005 3:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparknheart:
That was great, Meph. By the way, what was the name of the correctional institution you gave that sermon?
Thanks, man. But what do you mean by "Correctional institution"? I don't understand...
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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Truth Aficionado
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| Posted 8/5/2005 3:38 PM (GMT -6) | |
MephEternal said...Sparknheart: That was great, Meph. By the way, what was the name of the correctional institution you gave that sermon?Thanks, man. But what do you mean by "Correctional institution"? I don't understand...
I was only joking with you dude, playing off Selah. She might have a point. The sermon was good but I’m not so sure if the venue was appropriate. I understand community churches are meant to be a house for sinners, but most sin is not a criminal offense. Physically beating your wife as well as "kiddy porn" is against the law of the land. People actively engaging in such illegal activities should be in the hands of some professional law enforcement agency not a local community convent group.
IMHO,
Mark
Contradictions if well understood and managed can spark off the fires of invention. Orthodoxy whether of the right or of the left is the graveyard of creativity. | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/5/2005 3:55 PM (GMT -6) | | Sparknheart:
I understand community churches are meant to be a house for sinners, but most sin is not a criminal offense. Physically beating your wife as well as "kiddy porn" is against the law of the land. People actively engaging in such illegal activities should be in the hands of some professional law enforcement agency not a local community convent group.
Hmmm...
Well, look at it this way, Spark ol' buddy. Maybe confession of previously unknown sin amongst a loving, open group of fellow Christians is the first step to turning oneself in to the local authorities! yeah...
By the way, some of the people who've contacted me responding positively to the message, as I understand it, are people who have struggled with tough sins like pedophila and domestic violence...as well as ostracism from Christian community. They were encouraged by the message to move forward in faith...and I was TREMENDOUSLY honored that God used the it in such a way.
Weird and wonderful. That's God.
Proud to be in His Service,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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RealityCheck
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Date Joined Aug 2005
Total Posts : 2
| Posted 8/5/2005 8:19 PM (GMT -6) | | Every aspect of child pornography is a serious crime: purchasing, downloading, trading, or producing child pornography – each of these is a felony. Anyone who purchases or downloads child pornography is participating in the abuse and destruction of children who were manipulated and forced into degrading and potentially life-threatening situations.
The right Christian response to someone who confesses to committing a felonious act against a child – whether it is directly through pedophilia or indirectly through purchasing child pornography – is the same as the right Jewish response or the right Buddhist response or the right atheist response: and that is to take immediate action to prevent continuing criminal behavior. Anything less is complicity in a crime against a child.
In your sermon, Mephi, you mentioned that you might not let this person (who confessed to being “into” child pornography) around your children. But if you do nothing to stop this person (such as calling the police) then you are making it possible for this person to be around the children of OTHER people whom he presumably didn’t confess to and thus were none the wiser. Are other people’s children less worthy of being protected than your own?
People who look at child pornography are people who get aroused by children. In other words they are pedophiles. If they get aroused by looking at a ten year old boy or girl on paper or film, they are certainly getting aroused by looking at the actual children in their life, and it is only a matter of time before they act on it. In fact, looking at a child in a sexual way IS a form of acting on it and it is a violation of the child, who should never be looked at as a sexual object.
The most loving thing you can do for a person confessing such a thing would be to STOP them from doing it by intervening immediately. For you to suggest that an embracing community would somehow inspire them to stop is at best naïve, and at worst utterly uncaring toward their continued victims. The most loving thing you can do for a man who beats his wife is to CALL THE POLICE. The reason the wife continues to get beat up is because she keeps trying Christian forgiveness and embracing love and it doesn’t work.
To suggest that to confess to a loving, open group of Christians is a FIRST STEP toward “turning oneself in” to local authorities is disturbingly naïve. You mentioned “kiddie” porn (the term itself downplays the seriousness of the crime) and wife beating. What else would you allow to continue while you embraced the felon with your love? How about if someone said they had a “little problem with rape” and so they went out every Saturday and got themselves some by raping someone? How about if someone said they paid for their gambling problem by breaking into people’s homes? Would you wait for the person to turn themselves in? What about all the victims in the meantime, while you are busy “loving” the perpetrator?
How about if someone were flagrantly living with his own stepmother? How is that any different than “kiddie” porn?
Just doing a
RealityCheck Post Edited (RealityCheck) : 8/5/2005 8:22:39 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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| Posted 8/5/2005 10:01 PM (GMT -6) | | Reality Check,
Welcome to the board, RC. I appreciate your comments. If you'd gotten some kind of impression that I was being soft on the issue of child pornography or domestic violence, I'm sorry for that. That was definitely NOT my intent...as I hope you'd understand. I agree that loving communities would take immediate steps to stopping abusive behavior when they realize that it's happening, not only for the sake of the abused, but also the abuser. Somehow, it seems that you got the impression that I was suggesting some extremely passive action with respect to those things. I really don't see where I conveyed that sentiment, particularly with the actual scenario that I had painted. At any rate, I wanted you to rest assured that I do feel that child pornography, domestic violence or any other type of abuse is something that is very serious and is not to be taken lightly. These things end up utterly destroying the people trapped in their vicious cycles...as well as those persons who are abused by those poor people. Truthfully, I await the day when all of these types of things are distant memories...when God is truly all in all. Until then, we must just be be lovingly vigilant in our communities for the good of all people.
Again, thanks for your heartfelt comments! I pray that this has led to some greater understanding.
Sincerely,
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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RealityCheck
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| Posted 8/5/2005 11:07 PM (GMT -6) | | |
Mephi:
I agree that loving communities would take immediate steps to stopping abusive behavior when they realize that it's happening, not only for the sake of the abused, but also the abuser. Somehow, it seems that you got the impression that I was suggesting some extremely passive action with respect to those things. I really don't see where I conveyed that sentiment, particularly with the actual scenario that I had painted.
RealityCheck:
I am confused, Mephi. In your sermon you were very clear that we should stay in community with someone who is into “kiddie” porn or who beats his wife. Those were specific examples you used to show people how far they should go to stay in community. I think you are mistaken about this. I think we should break community with someone who is into child pornography or who beats his wife or who is living with his stepmother because that is the loving thing to do. I believe we are saying opposite things. It is not a question of being “hard” or “soft” on sin. It is a question of what it means to love other people.
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One Love
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| Posted 8/6/2005 12:14 AM (GMT -6) | | Reality Check:
I am confused, Mephi. In your sermon you were very clear that we should stay in community with someone who is into “kiddie” porn or who beats his wife. Those were specific examples you used to show people how far they should go to stay in community. I think you are mistaken about this. I think we should break community with someone who is into child pornography or who beats his wife or who is living with his stepmother because that is the loving thing to do. I believe we are saying opposite things. It is not a question of being “hard” or “soft” on sin. It is a question of what it means to love other people.
Let me try to help the confusion...
1) The main intent of the sermon was not about child pornography or domestic violence. It was not about what should or should not be done in whatever cases those things are involved. It was about a spirit of JUDGEMENT that can cause people in Christian community to want to separate themselves from the situation instead of lovingly helping a person in serious sin however that help needs to happen.
2) My example "Kyle" said that he was struggling with PORNOGRAPHY. That was his main struggle. Had been for a while. When he mentioned "kiddie porn", he was talking about something he'd actually done in his past and ashamed of. There is no context to know if he had done it last week, last month, or last year. There is no context to know if he'd only looked at this once two years ago or if this were a recurring current issue. For all anyone knew, it could have been something that happened years ago right before he was picked up for sexual assualt. There was NO real context given to know anything about the situation really.
3) My example with the person who said "I beat my wife." Again, we have NO real context to know anything about the situation really. We don't know WHAT'S going on for HOW long or anything. We don't know if the person speaking hit her once a year ago and has felt bad about it ever since...or if he just hit her the night before the meeting. This is extremely important information.
[Note: Please don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not making light of either of these things. I believe that even ONE instance of either of these things are too much! What I'm saying is that finding out the context of these things is crucial to making the appropriate decision. For example, if you were to know NOTHING ELSE about the situation accept for what was said in the sermon...and you were to attempt to report either of those things to the police immediately on just those exact statements made, to say you would run into some serious issues would be an understatement.]
4) Things would be very different if a person were to have information that purchasing, selling, or distributing child pornography or domestic violence were currently going on and had sufficient understanding of it's context. Then a person can make the right call to the authorities. The difference would be like unto someone saying "I've thought about suicide before." and saying "I've been struggling for the last two weeks with suicidal ideations. I've actually drawn up plans and bought sleeping pills." Would you try to take the person to the emergency room or a psychiatric hospital just based on the first statement ALONE? See what I'm saying.
I sincerely hope that this definitively clears all this up. Seriously. If you have anymore concerns, I'd be glad to respond to them via private message.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
Post Edited (MephEternal) : 8/6/2005 9:29:29 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 8/6/2005 9:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Alllllllllllllllllllriiighty then! Let's back onto the subject of this thread, if we could: Hustle and Flow. If anyone else has seen it, I'd love to know your thoughts about the movie or personal thoughts that the movie initiated with ya.
Positive. Negative. Doesn't matter. Let's share.
To all heresy-hunters and general lames...
"I'm connected nationwide, but from the South...
Respect game, and keep my name outcha mouth!"
--adapted from T.I. From P$C's "I'm a King"
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