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JET
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:50 AM (GMT -6) |   | I see "anger" as perhaps the oppposite of "indifference".
God loving Creation rules out divine indifference.
Ruling out divine indifference entails allowing for divine anger.
The question is: Does God care when Creation devalues God? Care meaning not just impassionate “displeasure”. Rather, care meaning internally, emotionally, passionately displeased in a way that we would call “anger”. ??? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:54 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
I tried to describe it from a hypothetical example in another thread. 'Anger' would be my emotional response toward the cause of my daughter's death. If she were killed by a drunk driver, I'd be angry at that person who is culpable, even if that happened to be another daughter of mine whom I also intensely love and value.
Ok. Let me put myself in this. And you will see why.
ANYONE HERE who remembers the Carlie thread remembers the OUTRIGHT ANGER I said that I would feel if my children died at the hands of someone I felt was culpable. I literally said that I would drop kick someone who I felt responsible in the FACE, I would be so angry. There was a time that I would angrily KILL people for hurting my kids on general principle. Easily. I was a friggin ticking time bomb, on the real.
MY POSITION HAS CHANGED 180 degrees!
The way I'm living right now, if a drunk driver were to kill my two sons, I would be disgusted at the irresponsibility demonstrated by the driver. And I would want him to take responsibility for his actions. But I would NOT...I repeat...NOT be angry with him. I would actually want to support him through his time of taking responsibility...through working WITH HIM in the legal processes involved.
Well, what about the children, you may ask? Don't you care about them???
Hell, yeah, I do. I would miss them. And if they were to die, I KNOW that they would be in better hands than I ever could have been. God's hands! I'd KNOW that I would see them later! I'd KNOW it!
So why would I hate on that????
I can hardly believe myself saying it...but IT'S THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH!
God has changed my ANGRY HEART for REAL!
And I KNOW it's God!
I guess that's why I'm not understanding God being ANGRY anymore.
Now, I don't know how this factors in...but I think it may.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/4/2007 10:04:35 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 11:01 AM (GMT -6) | | JET:
I see "anger" as perhaps the oppposite of "indifference".
God loving Creation rules out divine indifference.
Ruling out divine indifference entails allowing for divine anger.
The question is: Does God care when Creation devalues God? Care meaning not just impassionate “displeasure”. Rather, care meaning internally, emotionally, passionately displeased in a way that we would call “anger”. ???
Ok. Let's try on another perpsective, JET.
Let's NOT consider divine displeasure as indifferent or impassionate. That's not the case. God FULLY feels the feelings of divine displeasure. This is NOT impassionate.
When Creation devalues God, God PASSIONATELY cares that Creation is LIVING BY LIES...because that's the ONLY WAY that Creation would even WANT TO attempt to devalue God. And he's passionately committed to see us be FREE from those lies.
But none of this has to do with God being "angry"
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/4/2007 11:35 AM (GMT -6) | | I'm SUPER grateful to God and rightfully recognize the BEAUTIFUL changes in your life in this regard!! I'm not at all wanting you to change back or whatever.
I do sense, however, that in your last post you start to conflate anger with hate, anger with revenge, etc. If that's what 'anger' means neurolinguistically for you, by all means, don't go there!
But I honestly think, for me, that I could be angry (as I use the term) and still relate to my daughter's killer as you've described. For me, this is what "in your anger do not sin" conveys to me.
Let's bring in 'forgiveness' here... Although I'd be angry, out of recognition of God's providence, I believe I could forgive, i.e. seek reconciliation instead of retribution. Post Edited (Corey) : 1/4/2007 10:43:11 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 11:51 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Let's bring in 'forgiveness' here... Although I'd be angry, out of recognition of God's providence, I believe I could forgive, i.e. seek reconciliation instead of retribution.
Uh oh. Here's another doozy. Does unconditional love EVER have to CHOOSE to forgive? Or does perfect love ALWAYS forgive, NO MATTER WHAT? Hint: (70 x 7) The PERFECTION OF LOVE equals the UNCONDITIONAL NATURE of offering "forgiveness" Something else. If anger emotionally WORKS AGAINST people WANTING to forgive...what does that say? ------------------- Let me ask the question like this: Is there ever ANY TIME that God DOESN'T FULLY DESIRE to offer forgiveness?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/4/2007 10:56:53 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 12:03 PM (GMT -6) | | Forgiveness
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgiveness
Forgiveness is the mental, emotional and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment or anger against another person for a perceived offence, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution. Forgiveness may be considered simply in terms of the person who forgives, in terms of the person forgiven and/or in terms of the relationship between the forgiver and the person forgiven. In some contexts, it may be granted without any expectation of compensation, and without any response on the part of the offender (for example, one may forgive a person who is dead). In practical terms, it may be necessary for the offender to offer some form of acknowledgement, apology, and/or restitution, or even just ask for forgiveness, in order for the wronged person to believe they are able to forgive.
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Is THIS what the perfectly loving, perfectly free, perfectly rational God does?
He CEASES to feel resentment or anger...and goes BEYOND HIMSELF to make restitution?
God can actually feel DEVALUED (that's how resentment and anger come about?) by actions of another??
Do we really BELIEVE THIS?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 12:08 PM (GMT -6) | |
Let me spell this out.
Forgiveness is a term that ONLY HAS MEANING in a despairing context!
Some of us who are EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED to things can ONLY experience perfect love in terms of "forgiveness" because we see things the way WE are...not the way they REALLY are. Instead of us TRULY understanding the full ramifications of perfect love, we PROJECT our issues onto God. A truly free person is one whom knows this:
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that anyone can say or do to you to DEVALUE or THREATEN you in a real sense.
When you know this, exit all anger and resentment.
At this point, no one has to ask me for forgiveness for anything. I love all now...just on principle that God loves all he made. I have learned that asking someone to take responsibility for their actions (positive or negative) is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from wanting them to ASK for MY forgiveness.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/4/2007 8:17:15 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 12:14 PM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Right... but in order to cease feeling resentment or anger, it is entailed that one first feels anger or resentment. You can't cease what you haven't started.
That's my point, Corey.
No anger, no "forgiveness"
JUST PERFECT LOVE...being INTERPRETED by and SHOWN to crazy, despairing people who can ONLY THINK in terms of "forgiveness" because of THEIR despair.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Corey
Five with a Four-wing
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1893
| Posted 1/4/2007 12:25 PM (GMT -6) | | Exousia: No anger, no "forgiveness"
Corey: Really, I think it would have to be: no loss -> no anger -> no forgiveness. Conversely, real loss -> real anger -> real forgiveness. So let's talk about loss; the rest of it follows.
I think the loss (of potential beauty) God experiences when we sin is real. This is not the same as God godself being devalued.
Post Edited (Corey) : 1/4/2007 11:36:06 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 5:20 PM (GMT -6) | | Don: (emphasis mine)
My take on God's "anger" in the Old Testament ...
Over the course of time God has dealt with us as immature infants explaining things in terms we can ( in our fallenness ) relate.
In these last times He has ceased to communicate in types and shadows and has revealed Himself in Jesus.
In Jesus, I see no anger. He stood looking over Jerusalem and wept, He did not shake His fist.
I completely agree, Don. Completely.
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Corey:
Really, I think it would have to be: no loss -> no anger -> no forgiveness. Conversely, real loss -> real anger -> real forgiveness. So let's talk about loss; the rest of it follows.
I think the loss (of potential beauty) God experiences when we sin is real. This is not the same as God godself being devalued.
If you are talking about the emotional content of HOW God experiences "losses", then we only need to speak in terms of DISPLEASURE due to aesthetic DISsatisfaction. Anger is not necessary.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 9:12 PM (GMT -6) | | Is it true that LOVE keeps NO RECORD of wrongs? (1 Cor 13)
That it doesn't hold grudges of ANY TYPE?
Then, wherein anger or forgiveness in PERFECT LOVE?
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Thought:
When a person MISRELATES to something (whatever it is), then that person will probably MISRELATE emotionally to it's loss to the same degree.
God never does this.
God has EQUANIMITY!
Just think about it.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/4/2007 8:21:44 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 9:31 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/5/2007 11:55 AM (GMT -6) | | It seems some of us are trying to jettison the irrational emotion anger can create but not jettison the concept of anger itself. Is it possible to have anger without reaching that point where there is no internal or external irration (shaking of the fist as an emotional response)? If so, is anger defined, then, as a mental state in which someone is only emotionally charged to the point of disatisfaction, displeasure and, thus, an expression of upsetness reflecting said disatsifaction or displeasure?
Can I be angry, the, with someone because they did such-and-such, but not have that anger be in the way of a forging STATE-OF-BEING? Can be angry and yet never enter the emotionally charged arena where I have to even give thought to forgiving? In other words, are we on the right track in trying to diminish the emotionally charged aspect of anger that is common in humans (which is what hinders forgiveness) to a lower level (still maintaining the definition of "anger" state of mind?
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship with us? | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
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Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 1/5/2007 12:55 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Similitude
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2004
Total Posts : 4968
| Posted 1/5/2007 8:19 PM (GMT -6) | | |
I hate when I'm out for days. I get so far behind.
Exousia: I am really not seeing how a free, perfectly loving, infinitely intelligent God (to whom Creation is relatively meaningless) could see Godself in such a way that would say this...
"Hey, that guy is not doing my will. As a matter of fact, they are actively, knowingly opposing my will and causing needless harm. I KNOW that they "know better!" Because of this, I, the free God, CHOOSE to have a perspective where I experience PERSONAL OFFENSE and a sense of BEING WRONGED by what this guy is doing. I will always act and think benevolently about this guy, but I do feel that he has TRANSGRESSED AGAINST ME.
Jeff: I don't believe God chooses to feel in a direct sense. His sentient states occur naturally from His apprehension of reality and whatever contemplation He might do (like purposing). That's why I agree with you that God's accurate perspective is logically related to His incorruption, just as much as His inability to desensitize. Moreover, to my mind, motivation itself requires that one anticipate how a potential future state of affairs will affect one's natural sentient response. I.e., God only chooses a feeling by volitionally bringing about a state of affairs that He knows will generate the feeling He wants. I don't assume He can choose a feeling as the direct object of volitional choice any more than we can.
If God "chose" to feel anger (or any negative feeling) except in the sense of a necessary means to a greater sentient satisfaction, then I would agree with you, that such a thing seems bizarre. I don't even think Paul literally means to choose to feel anger in Ephesians. I think he just means that when we do feel anger--naturally and non-volitionally--sin not, and nip it in the bud by sundown (IOW, in a relatively short time, before it's associated impulse becomes malignant in effect).
Exousia: There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that anyone can say or do to you to DEVALUE or THREATEN you in a real sense.
Jeff: I totally agree that no person can actually devalue another. And I don't deny that people might feel anger from a perceived misevaluation of their worth. But that's not what Paul says God feels wrath from. Paul says God feels wrath when trangression occurs. It seems that Paul considers transgression to be a sin done with awareness that it is a sin. Surely God will feel some negative feeling for such an act. Why the specific feeling of anger (feeling only!) is problematic, I can't tell.
Exousia: No anger, no "forgiveness"
Jeff: This brings me right back to the "Why an atonement?" question. If there is no forgiveness or remission necessary from a perfectly loving creator, then why an atonement? It would seem like we ought to say, then, that Christ's death was not propitiatory in any real sense. I'm looking for coherence on this question and can only see it if, as Tom said, the requirement of justice is inherent in the moral order. Then divine forgiveness/remission/atonement all makes sense. Otherwise, the supposed atoning nature of Christ's death seems completely gratuitous and unnecessary--and, hence, cruel. Remember, Christ prayed that the cup pass from him. Why was it necessary if not for the remission of sins, as Christ supposedly said it was? And how could we know it?
Exousia: If you are talking about the emotional content of HOW God experiences "losses", then we only need to speak in terms of DISPLEASURE due to aesthetic DISsatisfaction. Anger is not necessary.
Jeff: If you are arguing on grounds of parsimony, here, then I follow you. For then we can say God has two feelings. Aesthetic pleasure and aesthetic displeasure. We can allow for variation in intensity for both. But then you say...
I believe that God would feel SAD and HURT because people can ONLY choose to WILLFULLY attempt to devalue God to the extent that they are living in despair and lies. He would feel sad and hurt FOR THEM...not for Himself.
AND...
I believe that God would feel DISGUSTED at the current state his beloved has placed themselves in. (Like the feces on the patient)
So my question is, if all we need is aesthetic dissatisfaction, why would we posit divine feelings of "sad" and "hurt?"
Tom: Corey (or somebody other than Exousia)-
Define 'anger' for me. Be specific enough to differentiate anger from other emotions. What is anger, UNIQUELY? (I'm not sure I'd be able to state this, but I thought you might, or at least might be able to focus in sufficiently on what you felt anger is).
Jeff: See my comments above on how it seems Paul describes the condition that evokes wrath in God. As for us, we may not be the best gauges. I agree with Exousia that:
When a person MISRELATES to something (whatever it is), then that person will probably MISRELATE emotionally to it's loss to the same degree.
God never does this.
Post Edited (jefscott) : 1/5/2007 7:27:42 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/6/2007 9:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff:
I don't believe God chooses to feel in a direct sense.
Clarification. I'm saying that God can choose a perspective of Godself from whence emotional responses emerge. And that's what I'm getting on. It's not possible for God to have a self-understanding that allows for God to have the internal feeling of being devalued or threatened by ANY activity in Creation. This INCLUDES the idea of "transgressions"
Example. Let's say that, for whatever reason, I am FULLY AWARE that there is nothing to be afraid of in a certain place. I have every assurance that this place is completely and perfectly stable and safe. I REALLY BELIEVE this. Now...would it make any sense for me to take on a PERSPECTIVE of myself and the place such that, for no apparent reason, I can experience SOME level of "fear" in the place that I KNOW is completely stable and safe.? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Again, Jeff. We don't need anger to talk about God's longsuffering.
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Jeff:
I totally agree that no person can actually devalue another. And I don't deny that people might feel anger from a perceived misevaluation of their worth. But that's not what Paul says God feels wrath from. Paul says God feels wrath when trangression occurs. It seems that Paul considers transgression to be a sin done with awareness that it is a sin. Surely God will feel some negative feeling for such an act. Why the specific feeling of anger (feeling only!) is problematic, I can't tell.
The specific feeling of anger is problematic because anger inherently deals with the internalized feeling of "BEING WRONGED AGAINST". (If there is a generally accepted description of anger that DOESN'T deal with the feeling of "being wronged" or "threatened", then I don't know about it. Maybe you do, Jeff) For a person to believe that a "wrong" or an "offense" was done against them, they would have to hold a previous belief that something COULD "wrong" or "offend" them. The "wrong" or "offense" is seen as either implicit or explicit DEVALUING of the offended by the offender.
The alternative is to say that when God has anger at transgression, God feels IN NO WAY "devalued" or "slighted" by the trangressing action. But to say this is to REMOVE any meaningful idea of God being OFFENDED by transgression.
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Jeff:
If there is no forgiveness or remission necessary from a perfectly loving creator, then why an atonement? It would seem like we ought to say, then, that Christ's death was not propitiatory in any real sense. I'm looking for coherence on this question and can only see it if, as Tom said, the requirement of justice is inherent in the moral order. Then divine forgiveness/remission/atonement all makes sense. Otherwise, the supposed atoning nature of Christ's death seems completely gratuitous and unnecessary--and, hence, cruel. Remember, Christ prayed that the cup pass from him. Why was it necessary if not for the remission of sins, as Christ supposedly said it was? And how could we know it?
Christ, the New Adam, set the transcendental whole of humanity into right-relatedness with God, dispositionally speaking. The propitiation was in the fact of God (in Jesus) doing what we couldn't do for ourselves, and in doing so, taking upon the proper consequences of fallen humanity upon Godself. We had that whole other thread about this.
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Jeff:
So my question is, if all we need is aesthetic dissatisfaction, why would we posit divine feelings of "sad" and "hurt?"
I'd rather use aesthetic pleasure and aesthetic displeasure. (I do in my own head.) To me, "sad", "hurt", and "disgust" are emotional states on the continuum of aesthetic displeasure that is commensurate with perfect love.
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Jeff, you have explained the CIRCUMSTANCES in which you think divine anger arises, but I don't think that you have described what Tom is asking for. What IS anger, in your mind? Please describe the emotional content as you understand it. We know that you feel that the UNIQUENESS of the feeling is included in the UNIQUENESS of the situation (transgression). What I don't yet see is what this means? Please paint for me how YOU see God emotionally operating in anger. Give me something to show WHAT an angry person says in their head! This would help immensely.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/6/2007 8:17:32 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/6/2007 10:53 AM (GMT -6) | | Jeff,
This is my attempt at trying to make sense of God being angry.
Let's say that there is x "trangression" where a person knowingly, willfully did anti-love activity towards God, self, and others. Actually, let's use SATAN.
The seat of the emotional response God has has to deal with how the "trangression" AFFECTS God.
Now...
For God to become angry, it would seem to me that there would have to AT LEAST be like this:
God says:
"Satan is not rightly-relating to me...and he is knowingly, willfully choosing to do so intentionally. This is pure defiance. Because he is doing this, I feel constantly DISRESPECTED and PROFANED by Satan because Satan is not giving me (or Creation for that matter) all of the respect and honor is rightfully deserved! He is doing something that he "shouldn't" be doing! Therefore, I am angry with the activity of Satan's transgressions."
This is the CLOSEST THING I can come to.
Now...
For this to work, God would have to BELIEVE that God could be disrespected or dismissed by the actions of sentient creatures. This is the ONLY WAY that God could actually have the emotion emerge.
But for God to believe this, he would HAVE to say that God's self-understanding is such that God's internal perception of "respect" or "honor" is CONTINGENT upon the actions of sentient creatures in some way.
He would have to KEEP A RECORD OF WRONGS, particularly about how "honor" or "respect" a person was to God, creation, and themselves. From there, God's intensity of anger would be commensurate with the AMOUNT and LEVEL of transgression.
But this whole thing would be based on FALSEHOOD...because God is aesthetically satisfied with the "respect" and "honor" that God gives to HIMSELF...and God fully knows this!
God's omniscience assures total self-understanding in God's eternal perspective. That means that God CANNOT believe a falsehood about himself...including his emotional relationship towards a wayward Creation. He cannot believe that any "respect" or "honor" that Creation refuses to give God ACTUALLY impacts the worth of God or Creation.
It's basically like this. If someone calls my mother a $5 whore who is worthless, I'm not going to get angry. Why? Mainly, because I realize that the speaker doesn't know what he's talking about. I know my mom's not a $5 whore at all. For me to get angry, I'd have to believe that the level of my mother's respect would GO DOWN by this person's statement. But since, I know this is not the case, I have absolutely no inclination to even begin to get angry. I know that a mere statement by a human being has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on my mother's worth or anyone else's. I'd have to believe a FALSEHOOD in order to get angry. Do you see? If I don't have the perspectival frameworks to allow for the emotion's emergence, then it won't emerge.
So...if all this is true...wherein could there be any sense of divine anger that is MEANINGFUL to the way that we consider "anger"?
I'm not seeing it.
Help me see what you see, Jeff.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/6/2007 10:03:00 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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