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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 11:49 AM (GMT -6) |   | Quote me.
It is an absolute ABSURDITY to say that the omniscient, omnipresent, perfectly free, perfectly loving, perfectly-rational, infinitely-intelligent God would actively CHOOSE to hold a FALSE PERSPECTIVE about Godself.
It would be a FALSE PERSPECTIVE for God to believe that any action from Creation could THREATEN or DEVALUE God!
For God to have an emotional occasion that is CONTINGENT upon creational "transgression", God would have to have some previous perspective allowing for the emotion's emergence. In other words, God would have to hold a perspective that ALLOWS for God to FEEL devalued.
But...
IF God can NEVER hold false perspectives, then God can NEVER really believe...AT ANY TIME...that any action could DEVALUE or THREATEN God...in any way.
Therefore, I want to say that God could NEVER have an emotional response based on a FAULTY VIEW OF REALITY...ie that God could EVER be internally devalued by Creation's activity.
Exit any meaningful sense of God being angry AT SINNERS!
----------------------------------------------------
Listen to me.
God has NEVER been angry with ANYONE! EVER!
God has NEVER been an Enemy to us.
WE have been an enemy to Him.
Just like the LOVE'S always been unidirectional...
So has the ANGER been unidirectional...
Hey...doesn't this just COHERE with PERFECT LOVE!
Cmon, y'all.
Doesn't it? 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 1/3/2007 12:13 PM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 12:30 PM (GMT -6) | | Now...
Doesn't UNIVERSALISM seem a LOT MORE PLAUSIBLE to you now?
All is FULL of LOVE!
Live in it...to the full!
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 12:35 PM (GMT -6) | | For you, T.
God does NOT feel devalued or "transgressed against" by Satan's crazy activities.
Therefore, God is NOT ANGRY with Satan.
God does NOT get angry WITH anyone or ON BEHALF of anyone...
BECAUSE GOD IS A FREE, LOVING, RATIONAL, SOCIAL BEING.
Ah....just wanted to get that out there...
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/3/2007 11:38:11 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 1:05 PM (GMT -6) | | | Corey. You're another INTP.
Talk to me.
What do you see here? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 2:23 PM (GMT -6) | | Here's some things...
"My anger" speaking of God
http://www.tniv.info/bible/wordsearch.php
Anger of the Lord
http://www.tniv.info/bible/wordsearch.php?
Deuteronomy 4:21
The LORD was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance.
Numbers 11:33
But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.
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Here's what we have to ascertain, I think...
Is the overall OT understanding of the "anger of the Lord" as follows:
The "anger of the Lord" concept is largely based upon the idea of God internally FEELING DEVALUED by Israel's actions towards God...to the point where God actually DESIRED to separate himself from His people and/or PUNISH THEM because of their sinning...and some form of RESTITUTION for the OFFENSE was necessary FOR GOD...so that God could fellowship with them , in spite of their constant "unholiness"
We just have to honestly ask this question.
If this is so, then this idea would seem to come into CONTRADICTION with what we have been saying about the perfectly free, perfectly loving triune God concretely REVEALED TO US IN JESUS.
Because the omniscient God cannot believe falsehoods.
And it is a falsehood that God can ever be devalued by any activity of Creation.
Hmmm...
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
Post Edited (Exousia) : 1/3/2007 2:27:15 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 2:36 PM (GMT -6) | | MARCION????
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/3/2007 10:53 PM (GMT -6) | | | Ok.
Let's here some thoughts on this.
Everyone feel free to SHARE!
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 3:05 AM (GMT -6) | | JET:
Just a thought. On another thread there was this idea that, notwithstanding God's aseity (by virtue of which Creation should be meaningless to God), God can choose to value Creation purely out of grace. Could not this same idea be applied to the question of divine anger? Given aseity, God should not be affected by Creation. However, God could choose to be affected by Creation, even to the point of allowing himself to be angry. That would not entail God having a false perspective about Godself. Rather, it would involve the same type of movement whereby God chooses to value what, objectively speaking, should be meaningless to God.
The problem is one of omniscience, JET. It doesn't matter that God's interaction with Creation is of grace (meaning that God's interaction with Creation does not CONSTITUTE that which aesthetically satisfies God and comprises God's essential existence.) The issue is that ALL of God's interaction with Creation must be proper to an omniscient being. And an omniscient being cannot believe ANY falsehoods. For God to "choose" to believe a perspective about Godself that even ALLOWS FOR an internalized feeling of "being devalued" (either directly or indirectly) by Creation's "transgressing" actions to emerge...would be for God to "choose" to believe a FALSEHOOD. There is literally NOTHING that can devalue or threaten the necessary, self-sufficient God. IF God, in God's omniscience, KNOWS this...then there is no perspectival framework from whence an emotion of "feeling devalued" could emerge in the heart of God.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/4/2007 9:23 AM (GMT -6) | | What about God being angry with someone because of what that someone did to someone else? Not an issue of God being devalued one on one, but an issue of God getting ticked off at the something someone is doing to someone else?
On another note, Exodus 32:9-10: And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”
Would you interpret this, E., to mean that this is not meant to convey God having emotional anger, but rather, this is the writer's way of relating to us; that God is simply choosing to destroy a people and start over with Moses, but the writer wants to convey an emotional anger in the discourse so that we might relate better to God's actions?
Starkman
My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?" Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship with us? | | Back to Top | | |
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JET
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Total Posts : 397
| Posted 1/4/2007 9:43 AM (GMT -6) | | Exousia:
For God to "choose" to believe a perspective about Godself that even ALLOWS FOR an internalized feeling of "being devalued" (either directly or indirectly) by Creation's "transgressing" actions to emerge...would be for God to "choose" to believe a FALSEHOOD. There is literally NOTHING that can devalue or threaten the necessary, self-sufficient God. IF God, in God's omniscience, KNOWS this...then there is no perspectival framework from whence an emotion of "feeling devalued" could emerge in the heart of God.
JET:
(1) The Omniscient One chooses to vest Creation with the capacity to affect God in a way that allows for an internalized feeling of "valuing Creation" knowing that Creation would otherwise have no value relative to God.
(2) The Omniscient One chooses to vest Creation with the capacity to affect God in a way that allows for an internalized feeling of “being devalued” by Creation (or whatever definition is being used for anger), knowing that Creation would otherwise be incapable of having such capacity.
If (2) entails God believing a falsehood, why wouldn’t (1) entail the same ? | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:20 AM (GMT -6) | | JET:
(1) The Omniscient One chooses to vest Creation with the capacity to affect God in a way that allows for an internalized feeling of "valuing Creation" knowing that Creation would otherwise have no value relative to God.
(2) The Omniscient One chooses to vest Creation with the capacity to affect God in a way that allows for an internalized feeling of “being devalued” by Creation (or whatever definition is being used for anger), knowing that Creation would otherwise be incapable of having such capacity.
If (2) entails God believing a falsehood, why wouldn’t (1) entail the same ?
I want to keep this as "centered" as possible here.
God, by the nature of who God is, experiences and appreciates reality. Therefore, a contingent way of valuing reality (ie valuing a contingent expression of God) would not be a problem for God. It's just ANOTHER FORM of reality to appreciate in the SAME WAY he appreciates himself. Now, when we talk about God having a perspective that ALLOWS for God genuinely feeling devalued or threatened by contingent activity, now we are talking about something that is different. JET, for God to reasonably experience "feeling devalued", God would have to take upon Godself a PERSPECTIVE OF REALITY THAT IS FUNDAMENTALLY UNTRUE. An emotion doesn't just come from NO WHERE. There is a perspectival framework that allows for the emotion's emergence. If God cannot have ANY perspectival framework for Godself that is a FALSEHOOD, then God cannot hold the belief that ANYTHING THAT OCCURS in creation can actually devalue or threaten God.
If God REALLY doesn't believe that anything that Creation does can, IN ANY WAY, devalue or threaten God...then how could God have the capacity to BELIEVE that the "transgressions" of a sinner could in ANY WAY make God FEEL devalued or threatened by their "evil" actions towards God.
Wherein, then, is the any MEANINGFUL sense of anger?
It is one thing, JET, to say that God graciously willingly experiences "longsuffering" for us. God chooses to experience divine displeasure...as part and parcel of working with us. It's a whole other thing to say that God chooses to activity believe a FALSEHOOD to the point where he has emotional responses based on said falsehood.
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Starkman:
What about God being angry with someone because of what that someone did to someone else? Not an issue of God being devalued one on one, but an issue of God getting ticked off at the something someone is doing to someone else?
On another note, Exodus 32:9-10: And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you.”
Would you interpret this, E., to mean that this is not meant to convey God having emotional anger, but rather, this is the writer's way of relating to us; that God is simply choosing to destroy a people and start over with Moses, but the writer wants to convey an emotional anger in the discourse so that we dmight relate better to God's actions?
1) God getting ticked off on behalf of someone else still has the same problem. God would basically be taking on the "devaluing" of his children...as upon himself. It would basically be God saying this:
"I CHOOSE to take upon myself a perspective that any dissonant activity in Creation towards me can ACTUALLY create internalized feelings of being me being DEVALUED in some way by Creation."
But even THIS is not consonant with God's TRUE belief about his ABSOLUTE FREEDOM and SELF-SUFFICIENCY. God is fully and lovingly engaged with the world, but NOT dysfunctionally attached. God can be DISPLEASED with his children devaluing themselves and God...but this doesn't have to lead to God feeling devalued FOR ANY REASON.
2) about the passage. I don't know. I do know that I'm having an extremely difficult time believing that God would have a self-perception such that the actions of a "stiff-necked people" would cause God to feel SLIGHTED because of their disobedience...because of God feeling devalued by their explicit and implicit activities. Whatever else, I know that.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:28 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I though we already said, E, that aseity doesn't rule out God's genuinely feeling hurt and disappointment in his contingent expression without compromising essential attributes that would otherwise make it difficult for him to experience us with respect to his inner trinitarian life, why not anger?
Experience divine displeasure as emotional pain is NOT the issue.
The issue is the PERSPECTIVAL FRAMEWORKS that God can have as an omniscient being to work with.
As I've said before, feelings of hurt, disappointment, and disgust can be CONSONANT with God's perfect love. Why? Because they don't require God to BELIEVE A FALSEHOOD. God can easily believe that God is completely free and self-sufficient...and OUT OF HIS FREEDOM AND SELF-SUFFICIENCY...CHOOSE to ENDURE displeasure (in a longsuffering way) due to consistent aesthetic DISsatisfaction (lack of fulfillment of our true selves)
This is SO not the same thing God as choosing to FEEL DEVALUED or THREATENED by "transgressions" by Creation against God.
You're still ridin' with me, aren't you? 
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:34 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom:
I mean, God would emotionally process peoples' devaluing him. God wouldn't perceive himself as less valuable than he is. But he would recognize that his value is not recognized by others, and willfully so, in spite of peoples' having more than adequate means to avoid such behavior. What WOULD God feel about this?
I believe that God would feel SAD and HURT because people can ONLY choose to WILLFULLY attempt to devalue God to the extent that they are living in despair and lies. He would feel sad and hurt FOR THEM...not for Himself.
I believe that God would feel INTENSELY COMMITTED to helping people stop believing lies. He is so committed to FREEDOM that he will not STOP working to see his people free. He's the Hound of Heaven...for real!
I believe that God would feel DISGUSTED at the current state his beloved has placed themselves in. (Like the feces on the patient)
I DON'T believe that the Divine Physician gets ANGRY WITH the patients for being SICK...and acting out in their SICKNESS!
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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Tom
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Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:38 AM (GMT -6) | | Yeah, I don't think God can have a false perspective regarding his worth and necessary existence. And this extends to his contingent experiences with us. So there's no question that however we understand what the Bible CALLS 'anger', it can't amount to an emotion which by definition requires either a false perspective of self or feelings of being threatened. I'm just wondering if we might legitimately call the displeasure God DOES express "anger" in ANY sense of the word. I'm not sure we can't.
It's about maps and territories. We agree on the divine territory. I'm just not sure "anger" as map has no possible valid applications to the divine displeasure we agree God does feel. Granted, if the dysfunctional understandings of "anger" are prevelant in peoples' minds, then we ought to dump the word "anger" to express this divine displeasure and find another word. What world WOULD you use? I think "displeasure" is too general. It covers SO much.
Tom
PS Isn't "disgust" a survivial mechanism as well? Couldn't one argue that ALL emotions are survivial mechanisms? Hmmmm.
Post Edited (TGB) : 1/4/2007 9:42:47 AM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Corey:
Okay, I agree that God himself cannot be devalued. Period. Fine.
But... I think we've agreed that there is such a thing as real loss, both for God and for us. I'm using 'anger' as the label to describe the emotional response to this real loss, particularly toward the cause of this loss. If there is real loss, the corresponding emotion is appropriate.
Please describe for me WHAT God's "anger" being displayed looks like in your mind. I want to see the picture.
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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One Love
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Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 1/4/2007 10:47 AM (GMT -6) | | With that scripture.
Did we ever think of the fact that these things were spoken to IMMATURE people trying to GROW UP into Christ?
Like the advice was TAKING INTO ACCOUNT that people were still at the stage of becoming angry?
Paul DID do that a lot, right?
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Therefore (YOU) go and introduce all peoples into the Way, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and intstructing them in following everything I have commanded you. (Great Commandments!)
And surely I am with you always, even to the very end of the age."
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