Open Theism Discussion Board

Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > (No Subject)

Forum Quick Jump

[ << Previous Thread | Next Thread >> | Show Newest Post First ]

RidingTheRapids
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2002
Total Posts : 6

Posted 7/22/2002 3:19 AM (GMT -6)

While reading through chapter three of Genesis I came across these verses that I am not able to understand. Would someone care to explain to me what God was saying in verses 22-24?
"...The man must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

To many of you the following questions may seem simplistic but I am trying to understand what I recently read and could use some help. Was there another forbidden tree in the garden that was called the "tree of life"? Didn't Eve say back in verse 3: "God did say, 'You must not eat from the tree that is in the middle of the garden , and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"?

What is the truth? Will they die as verse 3 says or will they live forever as verse 22 says? What's actually happening in verses 22-24? Where is this Garden of Eden and the east side where God placed cherabim and a flaming sword that flashes back and forth to gaurd the way to the tree of life? The reason Jesus came was to give people life so what is this thing with putting up a gaurd to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life and living forever?

Anyone?
RidingTheRapids

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 7/22/2002 4:40 AM (GMT -6)

My own impression is that Adam and Eve were immortal prior to eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and therefore this was the only forbidden fruit in the whole garden:

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

However, as soon as they had eaten from it, they became the first mortal beings and started dying. Ocne they had become mortal beings they could no longer be allowed to eat from the tree of life and once again become immortal through their own actions. Immortal life is granted purely by thegrace of God, Himself, no one can attain it through their own devices or own initiative.

... but maybe others have other ideas.....

Markus

Edited by - markus on 07/22/2002 09:44:45 AM

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/22/2002 4:40 AM (GMT -6)

As to death, it is a blessing of God. Otherwise sin would just increase and increase. That is the position of many, many Eastern Orthodox writers I've read, and also of this Reformation era confession (The Heidelberg Confession):

puts an end to our sinning

The Orthodox writers make the point that subject to sin and death our Parents would have been prone to just becoming worse and worse. (Enoch being an exception.) What they REALLY needed was this (LINK to a picture of Christ raising Adam/left and Eve/right out of Sheol--a picture of "our" Resurrection.):

www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/icons/Paschaltide/resurrection.html

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 7/22/2002 6:47 PM (GMT -6)

Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote a book that goes into some depth about what this means. The title of the book is "Creation and Fall". The first few pages a bit complicated to comprehend but once you get through that it is absolutely amazing what the story of the fall of man is trying to communicate to us.

One thing Bonhoeffer shows is that the real assault of the Serpent's was on the Tree of Life. That the only way to attack the Tree of Life was through the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

markus - your take is very similar to what Bonhoeffer is suggesting except that Bonhoeffer would add that eating of the Tree of Life would have given us Immortal Death - and thus it was mercy that God spared us from this.

"In the day you eat of it you shall surely die." Thus we are actually dead right now. Our physical death is the death of death and thus contains the hope of life.

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

RidingTheRapids
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2002
Total Posts : 6

Posted 7/22/2002 9:10 PM (GMT -6)

(o), Markus, and Iconoclast I really appreciate all of your insight into this chapter of Genesis. It was difficult to understand God's character in verses 22-24 but your explanations have been most helpful.

What I now understand is that God was sparing us from living in our sin for eternity by putting up the cherubim and the flaming sword that flashes back and forth otherwise eating of the Tree of Life would have given us Immortal death. Immortal life is granted purely by the grace of God. This all makes a lot more sense now. Thank you one and all for your thoughtful insights.

RidingTheRapids (With Jesus)

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 7/23/2002 4:42 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
markus - your take is very similar to what Bonhoeffer is suggesting except that Bonhoeffer would add that eating of the Tree of Life would have given us Immortal Death - and thus it was mercy that God spared us from this.

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/23/2002 5:12 AM (GMT -6)

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------
markus - your take is very similar to what Bonhoeffer is suggesting except that Bonhoeffer would add that eating of the Tree of Life would have given us Immortal Death - and thus it was mercy that God spared us from this.
--------------------------------------------

I think this is what Rapids is wondering about (and me too!). So, there was a tree the fruit of which would have either a) reversed the effects of their disobedience or b) made the consequences of their disobedience permanent and beyond redemption? Are those the options?

Tom

I'm NOT taking issue with anything here. But I'd loke to comment. In going to such a passage I refresh my knowledge that ONLY God has being. All else is sustained by God's providence. That said, I find it easy to shade towards treating the second tree as kind of a metaphor. (That is because I never think of God as detatching a piece of "life" and leaving it lying around.) I don't have to shade towards a metaphor with the first tree -- as I have tno trouble with a 'type' being true in itself. That last part is illustrated in communion (Orthodox and Calvinist) that when we partake of the bread and wine (neither of which cease to be what they are) we do partake of in the 'type' of the 'antitype.' (Real presence, without any transubstantiation.) The first tree is easy to understand as both a tree and the faithfulness-or-sin that it also is. (I don't think this sort of thing is possible for the second tree, as how could one 'faithfully' participate in unfaithfulness. Ouch...hurts my brain.)

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 7/23/2002 6:34 PM (GMT -6)

TGB

quote:

markus - your take is very similar to what Bonhoeffer is suggesting except that Bonhoeffer would add that eating of the Tree of Life would have given us Immortal Death - and thus it was mercy that God spared us from this.

I think this is what Rapids is wondering about (and me too!). So, there was a tree the fruit of which would have either a) reversed the effects of their disobedience or b) made the consequences of their disobedience permanent and beyond redemption? Are those the options?

(o)

I'm NOT taking issue with anything here. But I'd loke to comment. In going to such a passage I refresh my knowledge that ONLY God has being. All else is sustained by God's providence.

Iconoclast

Notice that the Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil were both at the center of the Garden. This is very significant to the meaning of the story.

ONLY God has being in and of Himself. All other being is "grounded" in His being. All other being at its "center" - at its core is "grounded" in the being of God. He sustains, He holds all creation together.

The meaning of the Trees in the center is that God is at the center of our being. The Tree of Life represents the Life that is God - that flows from God - from our center. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the knowledge of good and evil that is God's - that is also a part of us in the center of our being.

The gift is that we receive freely of the Tree of Life - there was no prohibition there - there was no need - we received this freely - it flowed TO us. The prohibition, the merciful warning, the "no trespassing" sign (Doc's term) was placed on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is ONLY God's to be able to judge others - non-omniscient being need not apply.

To eat of the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil means to violate this prohibition - it means to storm the center and seek to do for ourselves what only God can do for us. It means death because it means separation from God.

The next step would of course have been to storm the rest of the center of our being - the Tree of Life. It would mean that we now seek to take Life for ourselves - to "live" out of ourselves - which means to basically throw God out of our center ALL TOGETHER. Thus eternal separation from God - eternal death.

God mercifully does not let us do this. He stops the infinite acceleration of the Fall. He stops us from complete separation from Him. God then is STILL the center of our being but now this center is blocked to us by Cherubim with a flaming sword. We no longer know the center of our being like we used to and thus are not able to storm it and take it for ourselves. That this is even apparently possible is an amazing thing - I have no idea what it would really mean for us to do it. One possibility is that God created us as immortal beings with no possibility of non-existence, in which case taking Life for ourselves would mean eternal separation from God. Another possibility is that non-existence is possible and that to storm the center and fully separate from God would mean instant annihilation.

Question: do we now know what the Tree of Life is? Is it the cross? Has the way back been unblocked?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

PotOnWheel
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 7/24/2002 4:44 AM (GMT -6)

bookmark

Icon, I like what you said, but want to comment on something...

But I have to go clean the basement.

Hence, "bookmark."

Edited by - (o) on 07/24/2002 10:55:44 AM

RidingTheRapids
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2002
Total Posts : 6

Posted 7/24/2002 5:21 AM (GMT -6)

(o)

As I have stated I am a simple man and I haven't a clue what you mean by your last post "bookmark". Care to elaborate for me please? I really am getting a lot of help through what everyone has said!

RidingTheRapids (With Jesus by my side)

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 7/24/2002 6:32 AM (GMT -6)

This is an interesting thought:

ICON:

quote:

Question: do we now know what the Tree of Life is? Is it the cross? Has the way back been unblocked?

I have never thought of it like that before.

Whilst I can see connections, I don't feel we could say that the cross has unblocked the way back to the centre because it is still not within our own control to take advantage of it and we are not able to return of our own accord. What the cross does offer, though, is a gateway where we can stand in our outfit of faith, trusting and hoping that the gate will be opened to us.

The tree of life suggests to me the eternal spirit that was breathed into the bodies of Adam and Eve and their descendents, even once they were exiled from Eden. Before Christ's crucifixion, the punishment for sin was death. However, we can assume that spiritual death did not take place immediately following mortal death since Jesus appeared together with Elijah and Moses - both of which were sinners in spite of their faith.

The crucifixion of Christ paid the price of sin both current and future - but also retrospectively as well. Whilst for post-Christ believers it redeems those who believe in Christ, it is also redemption for those pre-Christ beings whose faith was in relation to their awareness. Chapter 11 of Hebrews lists many pre-Christ faith-heros for whom salvation is granted through retrospective application of Jesus' universal sacrifice (my opinion only).

So whilst the Tree of Life is still the fountain of eternal life, it is only Jesus' tree of victory over death that gives us an opportunity to be allowed back into its presence.

This posting is really nothing more than just an exercise in speculative thinking out loud, so feel free and set the hounds loose on me

Markus

Tom
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353

Posted 7/24/2002 8:20 AM (GMT -6)

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that the Tree of Life can be the Cross of Christ. Two reasons: First, it's anachronistic. Secondly, its existence in the garden prior to the Fall presumes the Fall as certain in God's mind and this is something I'm not convinced was the case.

Tom

"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde

Edited by - TGB on 07/24/2002 1:20:57 PM

Iconoclast
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227

Posted 7/24/2002 3:24 PM (GMT -6)

markus

Whilst I can see connections, I don't feel we could say that the cross has unblocked the way back to the centre because it is still not within our own control to take advantage of it and we are not able to return of our own accord.

Iconoclast

Good point. Maybe Jesus dying on the cross doesn't directly unblock the way - but rather shows us the way back to the Tree of Life? I like the gateway idea. Maybe the only way back is to die to ourselves - to take up His cross - and hence to be raised with Him?

TGB

I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem to me that the Tree of Life can be the Cross of Christ. Two reasons: First, it's anachronistic. Secondly, its existence in the garden prior to the Fall presumes the Fall as certain in God's mind and this is something I'm not convinced was the case.

Iconoclast

I agree. They cannot be one and the same. Yet I wonder if there isn't some strong symbolism here. The cross is referred to as the "cursed tree".

markus

The tree of life suggests to me the eternal spirit that was breathed into the bodies of Adam and Eve and their descendents, even once they were exiled from Eden.

Iconoclast

Perhaps once separated from God (after eating of the tree of the K of G and E) we are no longer directly connected to THE Tree of Life but God continued to allow us to have, in a sense, a fragment of the Tree of Life - a small portion that allows us to motivate these bodies of ours for a time - a "breath" if you will of the eternal spirit. But now that we have stolen the K of G and E we believe we are in control of this fragment - of this "breath" - of this "life" for ourselves. Perhaps we have to actually die to our need to control this fragment and ultimately allow this fragment to die? in order for the fragment to join back up fully with THE Tree of Life? in order to be given eternal Life?

The "cursed" tree which kills our need to seek life on our own and thus opens up the path to the Tree of Life - which connects us directly though Jesus with the Tree of Life.

Have I ever mentioned how much I enjoy rampant speculation?

thanks,
Iconoclast

"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 7/24/2002 10:30 PM (GMT -6)

Rampant speculation can be very creative (but constantly checked against biblical validity?)

ICON:

quote:

The "cursed" tree which kills our need to seek life on our own and thus opens up the path to the Tree of Life - which connects us directly though Jesus with the Tree of Life.

quote:

God continued to allow us to have, in a sense, a fragment of the Tree of Life - a small portion that allows us to motivate these bodies of ours for a time - a "breath" if you will of the eternal spirit

I like these.

But instead of the fragment being a breath, maybe it is a branch. But a branch detached from the root.

The Bible talks much of trees and vines, e.g. mustard trees, fig trees, Jesus the vine, etc.

But I tend to wonder if Jesus' tree is actually more door-shaped.

I have wondered why the crucifixion took place at the time of the Passover. There is a lot of similarity between the blemish-free lambs roasted and eaten on the night of the Passover after daubing its blood on the doorposts and lintel. This protecting the inhabitants from the death that struck at all the remaining families.

Jesus was the perfect lamb, the perfect sacrifice, the perfect substitute for all men. His blood was spilt on the cross, on the doorway to salvation - for those who choose to shelter in the house which is so protected by this blood.

Those who are in Jesus' house as strangers have to also be circumcised in the heart, as were those strangers that wished to stay in the Israelites' houses during the Passover.

If Jesus' death in this way provides us with protection from death, it also provides us, being just branches torn from the Tree of Life, with the opportunity to be grafted back onto the main stem.

Just thoughts - and probably full of woodworm!

Markus

Edited by - markus on 07/25/2002 03:33:06 AM

Edited by - markus on 07/25/2002 2:13:04 PM

markus
Registered Member

Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 100

Posted 7/25/2002 7:06 PM (GMT -6)

And interesting obserevation from the other end of the Bible:

quote:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

And so may we say that Jesus IS indeed the way to the tree of life, but not a return to the tree of life in Eden. For there is no going back. Having been exiled from Eden and the Tree of Life, we are now on a collective pilgrimage forwards,towards God's Kingdom, where the Tree now awaits us - but the only way there is a personal way through Christ Himself.

But there is a difference. In Eden before the Fall, humankind was in God's presence, but through ignorance and innocence. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil did not instil any kind of factual knowledge - it gave humankind knowledge of what good and evil actually are. We learnt the meaning of good by losing it and finding fear of God and separation from Him. We learnt evil by experiencing it.

This knowledge will surely not be undone. Maybe we can say this was God's intention all along. That once Satan and many angels fell, there would be no place in His kingdom through innocence and ignorance, but only through awareness of good and evil and a declaration of commitment to good.

We each have that knowledge of Good and Evil. We can only show and declare our commitment to Good through our faith in Jesus Christ. And those that maintain that faith to the end will be led by Christ to the Tree of Life that is in God's Kingdom - with no further need for a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.......

Markus

Edited by - markus on 07/26/2002 12:11:23 AM

Forum Information

Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:37 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads

Need Support? | Forum Help Manual