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John Earp
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   Posted 7/1/2003 6:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The following is a doctrinal statement from an Openness/MGT organization. I thought the statements made some excellent distinctions, and would like your thoughts. I have bolded points I thought were quite important and thought-provoking. (I think even Fred/PoW/Al would agree with just about all of the following statements).

(Begin Quote)

God created man for intimate relationship.

God and man relate interactively as personalities in real time.

All sin consists in sinning.

Christ died for all people in the same sense.

His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all.

Each must meet the conditions of repentance, faith and continuance in the life of faith.

Salvation is a present experience in the Holy Spirit--Christ in us.

(End Quote)

I particularly liked their description of God and man interacting as personalities in real time.

Their website, not connected in any way with my own, is:

http://www.revivaltheologypromotion.org/

(Lots of early Openness stuff in their catalog, by the way). Let me know what you think.







"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net



Edited by - John Earp on 07/01/2003 11:51:41 PM
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Tom
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   Posted 7/1/2003 7:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
God created man for intimate relationship.
What did God create woman for?



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John Earp
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   Posted 7/1/2003 7:37 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.


Cute. Hope you'll check in from time to time this summer.







"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.

revivaltheology.net
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ReasonableDoubt
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   Posted 7/1/2003 8:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For the most part I agree, except for "His atonement paid for the sins of none, yet provided for the salvation of all. "
Why didn't his atonement pay for the sins of any? I thought that was the whole point of his sacrifice?
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might-be-don
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   Posted 7/2/2003 1:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John quotes:
quote:
God and man relate interactively as personalities in real time.
Just a thought...

The reference to 'real time' is so dependent on a understanding of the language that exists today that it runs the risk of creating the same kind of difficulties we have understanding bible references. 'Real Time' as opposed to what? Unreal time?

peace and love, don

---
"You cannot step twice into the same river; for fresh waters are ever flowing in upon you." Heraclitus
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 1:42 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
An interesting side-alley is waiting for you at: www.modernpainter.com/theories1.html

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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 1:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
might-be-don
quote:

The reference to 'real time' is so dependent on a understanding of the language that exists today that it runs the risk of creating the same kind of difficulties we have understanding bible references. 'Real Time' as opposed to what? Unreal time?



As opposed to dedicated systems or embedded systems or fault-tolerant systems (arcane CSci humour)

real time:
1. The actual time (see below) during which a physical process occurs.
2. Pertaining to the performance of a computation during the actual time that the related physical process occurs, in order that results of the computation can be used in guiding the physical process.

time:
1. An epoch, i.e., the designation of an instant on a selected time scale, astronomical or atomic. It is used in the sense of time of day
2. On a time scale, the interval between two events, or the duration of an event.
3. An apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.
4. That which characterizes, or is characterized by, the observed and apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.



Edited by - Laika on 07/02/2003 07:04:53 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 2:03 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
I think even Fred/PoW/Al would agree with just about all of the following statements).


Two thoughts on what John Earp said:

    All sin consists in sinning.


I was reading someone--maybe Maximus the Confessor--and the point was made (In one of those pieces that quoted two portions of scripture and then asked "in what sense can both be true"; they lead one to examine the scripture more closely...) that Christ paid the price fot "sin" WHICH IS A CONDITION. The word "sin" can be used in two ways: individual sins and the "sin" which is the fallenness of humanity--the separation, I suppose. (Can't find the quote.) So THAT is an adendum to the "All" in Johns post.


    God and man relate interactively as personalities in real time.


No secret: I'm not an "Opennes" person. Less every time I read here. I will AGREE with the statement above. But it is NOT an "Openness" statement. It is a statement about the "setting" in which God and man relate. The realm and extent of that statement is about MAN. Man is "in time." Later, man will be in "transfigured time" (Characterized by no death, by dynamic-rest--not an oximoron: no entropy but creative-"becoming,") God creates time, sustains it inspite of the fall, will/has transfigured time (Christ's glorified body). but is also "outside" of time. ("Outside is a horrible word--especially wrong becasue it pictures God and time on the same "plane" in equal comparison. "Pre-eternal" is a good liturgical word. Shows uncomparability in my ear for it.)

God is "OPEN" in the sense that he acts in time, and personally -- aside from any natural (essential) causes and only because of personal freedom acts to suffer by the sin of his creation. Freely deciding to not usurp our freedom, that we might be saved and not overwelmed. And especially, in personal freedom to become man, suffer in fallen humanity, not sin, but deliver Himself up to death on the Cross. By His own power trample death in his own death, and raise from the dead on the third day. And with OUR flesh that he assumed from Mary, incarnate by the Holy Spirit he ascended to heaven and sits "at the right hand of God." THAT MAN is "worthy" to be the judge. Christ is the judge. Of His Kingdom there shall be "NO END!"
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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 2:07 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW

quote:

"Pre-eternal" is a good liturgical word. Shows uncomparability in my ear for it.



Is eternal plus a day longer than eternal?


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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 2:08 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika's post, quoting a definition:

    3. An apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.


C. S. Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: "Death worked backwards."

Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 07:09:30 AM
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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 2:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

Laika's post, quoting a definition:

    3. An apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.


C. S. Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: "Death worked backwards."



Well PoW, if you ever build a workable bridge or software with poetry, let me know.




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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 2:53 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Of course the literary explaination that "death worked backwards" is in itself the "exception that prooves the rule." Right Laika. so the truth of the statement that "Time is 'an apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events'" is save WITHIN THE SITUATION OF THE COSMOS for now. But not for always. And we celebrate that Christ's humanity is glorified. And we wait for that day for ourselves.


But...........not wanting to miss an opportunity for a challenge. A "poetic bridge..." (Hmmm.)




or



or



or



or


bridgeXngs Poetry Center

or


Engineering with no poetry!

or



or


And one more, with no poetry.
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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 3:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

Of course the literary explaination that "death worked backwards" is in itself the "exception that prooves the rule." Right Laika. so the truth of the statement that "Time is 'an apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events'" is save WITHIN THE SITUATION OF THE COSMOS for now. But not for always.



Very confusing. "death worked backwards" is meaningless. What's your point? That some day, time will go backwards? events will happen before their cause?

1. remove cake from oven
2. pre-heat oven to 450
3. mix ingredients thoroughly in bowl
4. add eggs
5. put cake in oven and set timer for 25 minutes
6. add cake mix to bowl
7. drink enough beers to understand what PoW is talking about
8. repeat 7. as necessary





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Starkman
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   Posted 7/2/2003 3:16 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:
real time:
1. The actual time (see below) during which a physical process occurs.
2. Pertaining to the performance of a computation during the actual time that the related physical process occurs, in order that results of the computation can be used in guiding the physical process.

time:
1. An epoch, i.e., the designation of an instant on a selected time scale, astronomical or atomic. It is used in the sense of time of day
2. On a time scale, the interval between two events, or the duration of an event.
3. An apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.
4. That which characterizes, or is characterized by, the observed and apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.



Plain, ol' time.

Starkman

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Starkman
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   Posted 7/2/2003 3:18 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW,

Say, 'nother subject here, but ...
What's your take on the Ecole Initiative site?

Starkman

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Some comments are just plain...STUPID!

quote:
Laika: Very confusing. "death worked backwards" is meaningless. What's your point?


This is all in reference to something that C.S. Lewis wrote in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe about Aslan's innocent death making "death work backwards." If you didn't read it, then KINDLY don't claim that Lewis' expression is "meaningless." If you didm't read it, saying so is rude. If you did read it, and didn't understand it, then saying so is also rude--since you should instead ask for it to be explained. But if you mis-understood it when you read his book; then that is stupid.

quote:
C. S. Lewis' The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe: "Death worked backwards."




Lewis writes a mean allegory. Not "meaningless." (If you don't like allegories, then that would be someone elses problem than mine.)

BTW - I don't like the atonement theory that Lewis was working out of. But as allegory the literary image of something "working backwards" (a good image for kids to grasp) serves quite well for the idea that death's work is undone.

True: "Risen from the dead" as in the case of Lazarus is NOT LITERALLY a case of something "working backwards. But get over it! Its literary, not literal. But it is entirely NOT MEANINGLESS.


Here's why the illustration Lewis used is called for. Fact is that DEATH is a parasite. Death and corruption are not part of our original design. Toil, sweat, childbirth pain are all connected with the fall. Enimity between animals and humans.

Were death a "natural" thing, then a literary divice like "working backwards" would be awkward--an intrusion into the fabric of the story. But since death itself is the intruder (and the Witch) the cause of "working backwards" fits very well in contraposto to the intrusion of death. In fact, as a literary divice the backwards-working is the exact symmetical opposite to death. The "born again" description would not be as neat a motif. Literary license prevails in literature.


What we can get from Lewis' story is the realization that what we begin to be lulled to accept as "natural" -- the linear and downwards path to death -- is truly unnatural.


==========================================================

quote:
Laika: Well PoW, if you ever build a workable bridge or software with poetry


Seems all the poetry went out of computer programing with the demise of 16-bit processors. Now anything will do. (arcane CSci aesthetics wisdom)


Google: "programming aesthetics"





Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 10:38:30 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:12 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
quote:

PoW,

Say, 'nother subject here, but ...
What's your take on the Ecole Initiative site?

Starkman


???
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Terry_Baxter
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
John,

Neat stuff. I always look for the threads you start and participate in.

quote:
Salvation is a present experience in the Holy Spirit--Christ in us.


What's your take on how this plays out, for you or the folks creating the original site?

Theologically, is this "working out our salvation"? Does it entail that "once saved" is not "always saved"?

Practically, what does this mean? What exactly is our experience of salvation and what are we being saved from presently.

Rather than guess at your answers, I'd like to hear you state them.

Terry
"Be God's"

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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:31 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW
quote:

(Seems all the poetry went out of computer programing with the demise of 16-bit processors. Now anything will do.)



Programming elegance -- reducing complex, fragile logic to simple, powerful logic has always existed in programming. Logically meaningless poetry, "death works backwards", has never existed in programming. It may soothe the soul, but you don't build robust software or theology out of it, IMHO.



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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:43 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
No poetry doesn't build programming. And if you are telling me that no progams are poetic, then perhaps I should believe you. (?)

quote:
Laika: "Logically meaningless poetry, "death works backwards". . .may soothe the soul. . .



But as I said on the last page:

quote:

Here's why the illustration Lewis used is called for. Fact is that DEATH is a parasite. Death and corruption are not part of our original design. Toil, sweat, childbirth pain are all connected with the fall. Enimity between animals and humans.

Were death a "natural" thing, then a literary divice like "working backwards" would be awkward--an intrusion into the fabric of the story. But since death itself is the intruder (and the Witch) the cause of "working backwards" fits very well in contraposto to the intrusion of death. In fact, as a literary divice the backwards-working is the exact symmetical opposite to death. The "born again" description would not be as neat a motif. Literary license prevails in literature.


What we can get from Lewis' story is the realization that what we begin to be lulled to accept as "natural" -- the linear and downwards path to death -- is truly unnatural.



Viva la Allegory!!!



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 10:46:18 AM
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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 5:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW
quote:

Here's why the illustration Lewis used is called for. Fact is that DEATH is a parasite. Death and corruption are not part of our original design. Toil, sweat, childbirth pain are all connected with the fall. Enimity between animals and humans.

Were death a "natural" thing, then a literary divice like "working backwards" would be awkward--an intrusion into the fabric of the story. But since death itself is the intruder (and the Witch) the cause of "working backwards" fits very well in contraposto to the intrusion of death. In fact, as a literary divice the backwards-working is the exact symmetical opposite to death. The "born again" description would not be as neat a motif. Literary license prevails in literature.


What we can get from Lewis' story is the realization that what we begin to be lulled to accept as "natural" -- the linear and downwards path to death -- is truly unnatural.



Nice, it shows unravelling death's effects but in a forward motion, which does not contradict:

Time
3. An apparently irreversible continuum of ordered events.

So why use it?

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 6:44 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Laika: "Logically meaningless poetry, "death works backwards".

Dylan Thomas: "Do Not Go Quietly Into The Night,
Rage, Rage, Rage, Against The Dying Of The Light"

quote:
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

From The Poems of Dylan Thomas, published by New Directions. Copyright © 1952, 1953 Dylan Thomas.



John Chrysostom:

quote:
. . .
Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again;
for forgiveness has risen from the grave.
Let no one fear death, for the Death of our Savior has set us free.
He has destroyed it by enduring it.

He destroyed Hades when He descended into it.
He put it into an uproar even as it tasted of His flesh.
Isaiah foretold this when he said,
"You, O Hell, have been troubled by encountering Him below."

Hell was in an uproar because it was done away with.
It was in an uproar because it is mocked.
It was in an uproar, for it is destroyed.
It is in an uproar, for it is annihilated.
It is in an uproar, for it is now made captive.
Hell took a body, and discovered God.
It took earth, and encountered Heaven.
It took what it saw, and was overcome by what it did not see.
O death, where is thy sting?
O Hades, where is thy victory?

Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!
Christ is Risen, and the evil ones are cast down!
Christ is Risen, and the angels rejoice!
Christ is Risen, and life is liberated!
Christ is Risen, and the tomb is emptied of its dead;
for Christ having risen from the dead,
is become the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

To Him be Glory and Power forever and ever. Amen!




"Forgiveness has risen from the grave." What utter illogic! What nonsense.

"Hell took a body. . .and encountered Heaven." What's this?

"The first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep." But. . .OPPOSITES.


Sometimes poetry is necessary.

Sometimes rantings -- as with Dylan Thomas' piece on the tyranny and 'wrongness' of death (What an unnatural parasite!) -- are appropriate,


Sometimes something is just so true that no amount of words even begins to define it.


Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 11:56:55 AM
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 7:01 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW (above):

    Were death a "natural" thing, then a literary divice like "working backwards" would be awkward--an intrusion into the fabric of the story. But since death itself is the intruder (and the Witch) the cause of "working backwards" fits very well in contraposto to the intrusion of death. In fact, as a literary divice the backwards-working is the exact symmetical opposite to death. The "born again" description [though more literal] would not be as neat a motif. Literary license prevails in literature.

    What we can get from Lewis' story is the realization that what we begin to be lulled to accept as "natural" -- the linear and downwards path to death -- is truly unnatural.



Laika

    So why use it?



If you don't understand the explanation I've offered above. If you don't see the advantages of the literary over the literal in some instances... If you just 'don't get' literary divices and why they are used. Then I can't help you.

But, as you've noticed. Many of the people you come in contact with do 'get it,' and use them. And that will probably continue to bug you.

Oh well...



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 12:05:23 PM
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Laika
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   Posted 7/2/2003 7:05 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
PoW

I get it. Your "death working backwards" is about unravelling the effects of sin in a forwards direction in time. I'm confused why you used this to refute the fact that time moves in a forwards direction.

But try again. The target is over there.




"A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim."
-- George Santayana
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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 7/2/2003 7:10 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
OK.

Laika: I'm confused why you used this to refute the fact that time moves in a forwards direction.

PoW: I used it the first time BECAUSE of its familiarity with those who might read what I was writing.

In a literal sense, Time needs healing. Time changed. Creation brought time into being. But the fall changed the "meaning" and the character of time -- it brought degredation. (Look at the shortening lifespans in Genesis. The writer ment for us to notice that!) Time needs "healing" just like human nature does from its "sin" (not individual sins, but the condition.) That's the literal. But the Lewis quote serves to just show that "time" is not what we sometimes think: that it is somehow irreversable. **adding** While time does not go "backwards," we speak and think of it as going "towards". It does towards decay, or towards maturation, or towards metamorphosis. We, particularly in Western European culture, think of time as LINEAR. And again: the Lewis quote serves to just show that "time" is not what we sometimes think!


SO, WHAT THEN IS ANOTHER WAY TO THINK OF TIME BESIDES "LINEAR?" In a true sense, time is "irreversible." But in the sense of the effects of time, in the sense of developments "towards" which time "moves" it is not always linear! So, in THAt sense: "Winter is reversible." Spring comes. And actually, as cultures go, the cyclical conception of time is quite common. But cycles also include the Hindu and Pagan Greek concepts of reincarnation. So, what ELSE is there besides the hopeless linear desent to disolution, or the hopelessly endless "Groundhog Day" of cyclical time?

What is often offered is the idea of a spiral moving upwards. That's a good model. It has both a sustaining and a growing aspect to it.

Thinking within the spiral model it is not at all hard to picture the slow dying of a downward-spiral path being "reversed" into an upwards-spiral path. In that transition, in one sense no "reversal" was made--keeping the "irreversible" statement still true. But in a second way, that transition "reverses" the path from death-wards to life-wards. From disolution to growing.

Lewis' statement, BEING LITERATURE had the task of first stopping us in our tracks. Saying "Death worked backwards" does that. It arrests our thoughts so as to enable us to start thinking another way. (Art does this.)

And we can do the rest. And SO CAN the gradeschool kids who read the Narnia books too!



Edited by - PotOnWheel on 07/02/2003 2:06:04 PM
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