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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 6/5/2004 2:14 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Does grace always cost the giver everything? I know that the parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin and the prodigal son all spoke of a grace that doesn't make sense in our "economy." But is this referring to the lost or to conflicts among believers as well?
Jo-Anne, I am not clear on what the particular struggle is that the leadership has decided to ignore and instead take the high road, but I do know that one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. Taking the high road does NOT mean allowing someone to continue on in their way. Sometimes taking the high road means tough love. Sometimes, as you say, sacrificing one for the good of the many is necessary. If a conflict cannot be resolved we must agree to disagree and go our separate ways. Sometimes the nose doesn't understand the calling of the foot because they are created to function differently hence they are not in the same position on the body. Sometimes we must part from a person or a group because our calling from God is different from theirs. Does this make sense? | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/5/2004 4:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by jefscott
Jo-Anne,
Paul says in 1 Corinthians that the Corinthian church were puffed up and did not rather mourn at the man who had taken his father's wife. Paul rebuked them for that, saying they should not even eat with such professing believers. In Thessalonians he spoke of some in the church that they were to avoid company with because of their inappropriate actions. Church discipline is a duty, not an option. I'm not sure if church discipline is what you're talking about, but if it is, then scripture is clear about that.
Hi Jef,
Church discipline is what I'm talking about. It's something no one wants to think about. Just saying the words makes you cringe inwardly. It is definitely not for the faint of heart. But sometimes, under the guise (?) of "taking the high road" perhaps we linger far too long. Or can you ever linger far too long where grace is concerned?
Jesus put more emphasis on one than He did on "the many" in the parables of the lost coin, the lost sheep, the prodigal son. Philip Yancey refers to this as "atrocious grace" that costs the giver everything. That's why I'm wondering if this is the high road, even in church discipline?
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 6/5/2004 11:13 AM (GMT -6) | | Jesus said that we were to take the plank out of our own eyes before we take the speck out of someone else's eye. But he never said don't take out the speck!
In the UK there is a conference called Spring Harvest, and this year it was titled "Grace Academy" [named after a TV show called 'Fame Academy']. A guy who was teaching gave the example of the previous evening when he had taken his family out to Pizza Hut to celebrate his son's birthday. However, the pizza was 45 mins late and was burnt/cold. he asked "what would grace do?" In the end we decided that the grace thing was to, in a considerate way, make a complaint to the manager for what happened. The other 2 options aren't ideal y'see... option 1 - don't say anything and get resentful and bitter about the restaurant; option 2 - blow your top with the waiter! Paul says to speak the truth in love...it's a narrow path to tread, but if we ignore one or the other then we are treading on dangerous ground.
Hope that's vaguely helpful and even makes sense.
Love in Christ
Timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/5/2004 7:48 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by timlings
Jesus said that we were to take the plank out of our own eyes before we take the speck out of someone else's eye. But he never said don't take out the speck!
In the UK there is a conference called Spring Harvest, and this year it was titled "Grace Academy" [named after a TV show called 'Fame Academy']. A guy who was teaching gave the example of the previous evening when he had taken his family out to Pizza Hut to celebrate his son's birthday. However, the pizza was 45 mins late and was burnt/cold. he asked "what would grace do?" In the end we decided that the grace thing was to, in a considerate way, make a complaint to the manager for what happened. The other 2 options aren't ideal y'see... option 1 - don't say anything and get resentful and bitter about the restaurant; option 2 - blow your top with the waiter! Paul says to speak the truth in love...it's a narrow path to tread, but if we ignore one or the other then we are treading on dangerous ground.
Hope that's vaguely helpful and even makes sense.
Love in Christ
Timlings
It is more than "vaguely helpful." Thank you. You're right, if we don't confront things, we tend to bury resentment/anger, which is bound to come out somewhere (or take a physical tole on us).
This is a delicate situation, but one that we have been trying to bury for a couple of years now. Now it seems so much harder to deal with as their are so many things that have happened that went unresolved.
Why are we so afraid of honesty, so afraid to be transparent with one another? Is it naive to hope for such a thing?
Wondering.
Nite and God Bless,
Jo-Anne 
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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timlings
Registered Member
Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 6/6/2004 11:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne
You said
quote:
Why are we so afraid of honesty, so afraid to be transparent with one another? Is it naive to hope for such a thing?
That's struck the nail right on the head. It's all down to boundaries...we are afraid of our yes and our no. We are afraid of telling the truth to people because we fear losing their relationship. When we say no to people they pull back, or they emotionally manipulate us or make us feel guilty. So instead we go along with stuff that we don't like or don't agree with in order to keep things sweet but damaging our hearts in the process.
The bible commands us to "guard your heart for it is the well spring of life". It's our job to look after everything that's our responsibility: our emotions, our thinking, our bodies, our jobs, our families, our desires etc. And the way that we do that is through saying yes or no to people and to situations.
Think of it like a walled city... The walls are there to keep the enemies out and keep all the resources and treasures safely inside. However, there are also gates, which are to let the bad stuff out (garbage etc) and the good stuff in (all the traders etc.). It's the same with our lives. We say yes to the good things people want to bring into our lives and no to the bad stuff.
When we start speaking the truth to people, we are making the inside and the outside line up. As the Psalms say, God desires truth in our innermost being. It is not always easy to do, but is easier to do when we are surrounded by people who we can say yes and no to, and people who say yes no to us too! God's like that if you think about it...he's very good at saying no when he wants to! We can't manipulate him at all. He says no to sin - "that's wrong, I don't like it, please don't do it", but also says yes to the good - "if he did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, will he not, along with him, graciously give us all things?"
It's healthy to be honest. If someone asks you for a favour and you're not sure you can do it, it's better to say no than say yes and fail to do it, or else resent it. And if someone does something to hurt you, it's better to go and tell them that you feel angry at what they've done rather than covering it up and pretending nothing happened.
It's not easy though...but narrow is the path that leads to life and few are they that find it!
Love in Christ
Timlings | | Back to Top | | |
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/7/2004 6:05 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by timlings
Jo-Anne
You said
quote:
Why are we so afraid of honesty, so afraid to be transparent with one another? Is it naive to hope for such a thing?
That's struck the nail right on the head. It's all down to boundaries...we are afraid of our yes and our no. We are afraid of telling the truth to people because we fear losing their relationship. When we say no to people they pull back, or they emotionally manipulate us or make us feel guilty. So instead we go along with stuff that we don't like or don't agree with in order to keep things sweet but damaging our hearts in the process.
The bible commands us to "guard your heart for it is the well spring of life". It's our job to look after everything that's our responsibility: our emotions, our thinking, our bodies, our jobs, our families, our desires etc. And the way that we do that is through saying yes or no to people and to situations.
Think of it like a walled city... The walls are there to keep the enemies out and keep all the resources and treasures safely inside. However, there are also gates, which are to let the bad stuff out (garbage etc) and the good stuff in (all the traders etc.). It's the same with our lives. We say yes to the good things people want to bring into our lives and no to the bad stuff.
When we start speaking the truth to people, we are making the inside and the outside line up. As the Psalms say, God desires truth in our innermost being. It is not always easy to do, but is easier to do when we are surrounded by people who we can say yes and no to, and people who say yes no to us too! God's like that if you think about it...he's very good at saying no when he wants to! We can't manipulate him at all. He says no to sin - "that's wrong, I don't like it, please don't do it", but also says yes to the good - "if he did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, will he not, along with him, graciously give us all things?"
It's healthy to be honest. If someone asks you for a favour and you're not sure you can do it, it's better to say no than say yes and fail to do it, or else resent it. And if someone does something to hurt you, it's better to go and tell them that you feel angry at what they've done rather than covering it up and pretending nothing happened.
It's not easy though...but narrow is the path that leads to life and few are they that find it!
Love in Christ
Timlings
Timlings,
Thank you for such an insightful response. I would never have considered the verse about "guarding your heart" to apply here. There is so much more involved in guarding our hearts than I would have guessed. That verse could probably be a sermon all on its own!
Well, we've been honest, told the truth in love (even though it probably didn't feel like love to the ones who had to hear it), and now there seems to be more mistrust and hurt, broken relationships... I guess that is the "risk" of love. You risk being rejected, or at the very least misunderstood when you tell the truth in love. You count on the response of those who hear to be what you hope for. It isn't always what you hope for. Then you wonder if you really did the right thing. It's been a long time since I've second guessed myself. I used to do this continually.
We have yet another meeting today to restore this relationship that is broken. I would appreciate your prayers for us in this. I've come to realize that relationships are far more important to the Father than arguing over whose theology is "right." It's wonderful to discuss theology if people have a spirit of love and gentleness that prevails, but it was never intended to divide.
Then again, perhaps that is why we have so many different denominations, and once again I may be naive.
I'm a bit of a dreamer. Perhpas it is precisely because relationship is so important to me that this feels like such a huge risk.
Anyway, thank you again for your thoughts. If there are more insights regarding transparency in the Christian life, I'd love to hear them.
God Bless 
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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timlings
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Date Joined Apr 2002
Total Posts : 130
| Posted 6/8/2004 3:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Jo-Anne
Have you read the book "Boundaries" by Cloud & Townsend? All the stuff I mentioned came from it. It's quite life-changing and freeing, so I'd really reccommend it to you.
I hope the meeting went well.
love in Christ
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might-be-don
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 830
| Posted 6/8/2004 4:45 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_jAnyway, thank you again for your thoughts. If there are more insights regarding transparency in the Christian life, I'd love to hear them.
1 Corinthians 3
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
This is a sobering thought... " the Day will bring it to light". We think we can walk in light and be unrevealed by it's brilliance, only to prove we still walk in darkness. The sad truth is we don't want to be transparent because despite what we say about who we are in Christ, we look ugly to each other.
The truth of the matter is I can't/don't reveal myself because frankly I don't believe I won't be judged by those that say they know Jesus.
peace, don
"Life is a gift from God, but the years have weight in them."
Terry Scott Taylor | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 6/8/2004 5:28 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by moon_river_j
Anyway, thank you again for your thoughts. If there are more insights regarding transparency in the Christian life, I'd love to hear them.
I don't think we should be transparent with everyone, ya know.
I think I'm responsible to reprove some people but not everyone.
I think I'm reprovable by some people but not by everyone.
Listen to your mama, not everybody's mama....
"Let others take the high road, I will take the low,
I cannot wait to rush in, where angels fear to go"
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1Heart
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2004
Total Posts : 1128
| Posted 6/8/2004 11:07 AM (GMT -6) | | Timlings,
I have heard of "Boundaries" by Townsend. I'll get it and read it sometime. At times I wonder if the boundaries we set are fear based, but I do recognize that there have to be certain limitations and that as Sisters of Cain and Don have mentioned, that we can't be transparent with everyone.
A friend pointed out to me this morning, that during our Sunday morning "Prayer and Sharing" time, the question was asked, "Who has unspoken prayer requests?" About 25 hands shot up instantly, and my friend took that to mean that we do not have the trust to be able to share with each other. We talked about that for a few minutes, and I said that it is my heart's desire to be a "safe place" for people to share their heart, but sometimes you just recognize that some people have problems and they cannot be a safe place - so sharing with the entire group at one time just doesn't feel safe.
So, what I'm concluding is that transparency is for dreamers...or perhaps transparency is possible with certain people, but not all believers, and that's alright.
By the way, thank you for praying...the meeting cleared up misunderstanding and was a beginning. Hearts were shared and for the most part, I believe they were heard, and feelings were accepted and acknowledged without judgement.
Somehow we need to lead as leaders - to set the example with each other - to build the relationships for others to see that it really is possible to have "community" in Christ. We are taught from the time we are very young to be suspicious of people's motives. It is a struggle at times not to carry that over into the Christian community. I have erred on the side of being too trusting at times. I guess I am both a dreamer and an idealist. I'm learning that you can be a bit more of a realist without being disappointed.
Ultimately our safe place needs to be Jesus Christ. It is a mistake to run to everyone but Him. I'm learning more and more how wonderful it is to rest in Him. Reading "Seeing is Believing" really drove that home for me.
God Bless,
Jo-Anne
"Sometimes all we can do is go back to the character of God, and drop anchor there."
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