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| Open Theism Discussion Board > Public Forums > Theological Q&A > Obedience and flourishing: a problem | Forum Quick Jump
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Sisters of Cain
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/3/2004 5:27 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by borg
First and foremost stop running from circular reasoning, it's not the worst thing in the world.
Owning up to circular reasoning? At least you're honest.
quote:
secondly, you are therefore arguing that one cannot be assured of their salvation. to a degree.
We can have assurance of salvation, we can have assurance that the Bible is accurate. We have FAITH first and foremost! And if you're interested I can tell you why I beleive we can have assurance of salvation, but I have a feeling this is all falling on deaf ears
No, intelligent ears.
How can you have assurance of salvation if your premise is EVERYTHING you think, read, feel, hear is TOTALLY CORRUPT?
you can't
Perhaps your premise is wrong. Perhaps God has left us with some spiritual reasoning abilities:
Romans 1:
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
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CalvinnHobbes
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 88
| Posted 9/4/2004 6:21 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
This is possible, but given the mantra-like conditional that the Israelites had seared into their brains (If you obey, then you will prosper, etc) and the fact that they experienced the direct results of their respective behavior, I find it hard to believe any JEW would not be obedient. Would anyone say that this OT formula applies today in our lives as Christians? How?
quote:
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3) Or perhaps he observes that God’s judgment seems to be actualized in varying degrees and surmises that the retribution he’ll get for his disobedience will be tolerable.
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This consideration seems close to begging the question. I would simply ask, why would this be an attractive option for the OT Jew?
All in all, I think you're right to bring psychological factors into play--they surely have an effect on what we perceive to be truly Good. It makes me think that the concept of idolatry is going to figure into any decent explanation of OT Jew disobedience.
Let me see if I can get anywhere by trying to tie the above together. And really, I'm just thinking out loud here. I haven't developed any firm convictions necessarily on this yet.
Regarding 3, the Jew is (consciously or subconsciously) basically saying to himself, "Okay, if I choose to sin here, then I'll be punished. Ahhhh, but to what degree will God punish me? He is also merciful, so maybe it won't be that bad. And frankly, I want such and such badly enough that I'm willing to gamble here." Granted, this explanation primarily deals with cases in which God prescribes "punishment" vaguely enough to allow one to play with degrees in his or her own mind.
If God says, "Precisely X, Y, Z will happen when you sin," then the psychological rationalization process might operate a bit differently, depending on what the Jew thinks about X, Y, and Z. Again, the Jew might consider X, Y, and Z tolerable. But if they seem intolerable ("you'll die," etc.), perhaps the Jew starts rationalizing according to some combination of the second and third suggestions I threw out in my first post. Here he might be thinking, "All of God's people sin. (He might even project his own degree of sin onto others here and say everyone sins just as badly as he does.) Yet God always seems to go easier on some than he does on others. Even when he wipes out his people from the face of the earth, he always preserves a remnant according to his promise."
You asked what would make 3 an "attractive option for the Jew." Negative retribution in and of itself, of course, is never going to seem attractive (unless you're some kind of masochist perhaps, and even then it might not be in and of itself). But what we might have here is a competition of attractive options where one's desire for the prohibited is much stronger than one's desire to avoid the impending retribution. In such a case, the unattractiveness of retribution becomes psychologically irrelevant. If you think I'm still begging the question, what question are you referring to exactly? I may be missing something somewhere.
And on the side of positive retribution, he may be thinking, "Okay, if I choose to obey here, then I'll prosper. Ahhhh, but to what degree will I prosper, and how long will it last? Will that properity be as pleasing as the pleasure I can have right now through disobedience? And maybe I can have both--disobedience and prosperity--after all, look at that person over there."
The pleasure we can have now through disobedience is so much more tangible than the delayed gratification that tends to come with obedience. Like C. S. Lewis remarked, "we are far too easily pleased." As you said, perceptions of the "Good" can be influenced by psychological factors. Everything I've thrown out above is really me just thinking through, for the first time in any depth, some ways in which psychological rationalization might operate in this whole issue. So I definitely appreciate the feedback you've been giving me, Alyosha. --And as far as an example of disobedience with guaranteed retribution today, can we point to how many Christian men will be sexually immoral in some fashion, knowing full well that it is going to hurt their marriage. We see the competition of desires playing in here, along with the vagueness of the future and the leeway this gives us to rationalize about degrees of retribution. (I'm just pulling this example off the top of my head. You might say this isn't close enough to the OT situation. If you'd like, I'll try to think of a better example. Can you think of any yourself? And do you think I've said anything new, or have I essentially just restated what I posted initially?
C&H
"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams | | Back to Top | | |
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