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AlyoshaKaramazov
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 49
| Posted 8/4/2004 3:40 PM (GMT -6) |   | Many times in the OT God makes it clear to individuals and the Israelites as a whole that if they obey him, they will flourish, prosper, all things good, etc. Many of them also saw God's track record: pretty much completely faithful to his promises.
Now my question: why were they EVER disobedient? Of course, one classic explanation is the whole weakness of will factor: they knew what was right, but their will was bent wrongly. I find this explanation to be pretty unconvincing. They saw a pattern in their relationship with God, they knew how to get blessing and where it came from--it seems to me that only the most mentally incompetent people would choose to be disobedient. Because I choose not to believe that these people were UNBELIEVEABLY stupid, I have to say the explanation that the OT is largely post facto interpretations of Jewish history makes a lot more sense. But, my evangelical intuitions are having trouble accepting this common naturalistic view of the OT.
Of course, some will say that I am making relationships purely intellectual. God desires to engage the whole person: mind, will, passions, etc, therefore, God will not allow us as human creations to manipulate him through a simple formula. But, it seems to me that this is precisely what God seems to offer many times in the OT. Yes, there are exceptions like Job, but let's face it Job seems to be in the vast minority here.
Thoughts?
What say the CV posse? Anyone know of any reading I could do on this?
"You see I have come to doubt all that I once held as true. I stand alone without beliefs, the only truth I know is you."--Paul Simon | | Back to Top | | |
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J-strizzle
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| Posted 8/6/2004 10:05 AM (GMT -6) | | | I think they were a lot like all people. They thought God was holding out on them. Therefore they decided that they needed to find thier worth in other things of the world. Much like we do...especially in America. It's easy for us to try and take things in our own hands....and find our worth from relationships, money, how much people like us, etc. We think God is holding out on us... | | Back to Top | | |
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CalvinnHobbes
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| Posted 8/27/2004 2:43 PM (GMT -6) | | I'm a little late chiming in on this discussion, I know. But I thought I'd throw out just a few musings on your question, Alyosha.
I agree that there is probably more going on here than just incredible stupidity. I can think of a few things that might have caused an OT Jew to, if nothing else, doubt the universality and/or necessity of these “if-then” conditionals you mention.
1) He witnesses the coexistence of prosperity and wickedness, be it in his own life, the life of another Jew, or perhaps even in the life of one who is not among YHWH’s chosen people.
2) He figures God likes the idea of a remnant and tells himself he’ll probably be among those whom God preserves despite their sin.
3) Or perhaps he observes that God’s judgment seems to be actualized in varying degrees and surmises that the retribution he’ll get for his disobedience will be tolerable.
These are just a few things that quickly come to mind. I realize I've focused upon the negative conditionals. Do you think any of this helps make more sense of the phenomenon, or should we rule these (psychological?) factors out for some reason/s? I think we operate in these ways today in the course of our daily lives, especially with respect to this third factor of degree.
"The longer I live, the more I read, the more patiently I think, and the more anxiously I inquire, the less I seem to know." ~President John Adams | | Back to Top | | |
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Bobber
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Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/28/2004 2:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
So why do WE sin? We know better, don't we?
But who says that we need to sin or that we will? God didn't. Yes he said If we do sin we have an advocate with the Father [Jesus Christ] but what he said was IF we sin not that we have to. If we do sin we sin because of why James says we do....we choose to yeild to the flesh. 
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Bobber
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Total Posts : 199
| Posted 8/28/2004 2:34 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
The answer is simple: We sin because we are sinners by nature, and cannot help ourselves. We shouldn't question God's justice in damning sinners to hell for merely doing that which their nature dictates.
I would say we are not sinners by nature that is the moment after we receive the Lord Jesus Christ into our spirits. We are ones with the divine nature of God, New Creations or New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Actually we could question Gods justice for sending sinners to hell if it was just because their nature dictated sin. That wouldn't be fair to them for they were born that way and had no way out of it. Where we can't question Gods justice is when he's provided the way out of the sinful nature by receiving the new nature and yet a sinner still chooses to remain degenerate. I would say from Gods standpoint that's what the real issue is. | | Back to Top | | |
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AlyoshaKaramazov
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| Posted 8/31/2004 12:09 PM (GMT -6) | | Thanks to everyone for their responses.
Calvin writes:
quote:
1) He witnesses the coexistence of prosperity and wickedness, be it in his own life, the life of another Jew, or perhaps even in the life of one who is not among YHWH’s chosen people.
This is possible, but given the mantra-like conditional that the Israelites had seared into their brains (If you obey, then you will prosper, etc) and the fact that they experienced the direct results of their respective behavior, I find it hard to believe any JEW would not be obedient. Would anyone say that this OT formula applies today in our lives as Christians? How?
quote:
3) Or perhaps he observes that God’s judgment seems to be actualized in varying degrees and surmises that the retribution he’ll get for his disobedience will be tolerable.
This consideration seems close to begging the question. I would simply ask, why would this be an attractive option for the OT Jew?
All in all, I think you're right to bring psychological factors into play--they surely have an effect on what we perceive to be truly Good. It makes me think that the concept of idolatry is going to figure into any decent explanation of OT Jew disobedience. Boyd has a nice discussion of Satan's attempts to deceive us about God's character in "Repenting of Religion." Thanks Shane for helping me think through some of this stuff!
Hi Lee,
I found your response baffling.
quote:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
It was in God's plan! And a plan for good...
How is this relevant?
Sorry I don't have time to respond to everyone--thanks again for replying.
"You see I have come to doubt all that I once held as true. I stand alone without beliefs, the only truth I know is you."--Paul Simon | | Back to Top | | |
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JEE
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Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 1466
| Posted 8/31/2004 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Bobber
quote:
The answer is simple: We sin because we are sinners by nature, and cannot help ourselves. We shouldn't question God's justice in damning sinners to hell for merely doing that which their nature dictates.
I would say we are not sinners by nature that is the moment after we receive the Lord Jesus Christ into our spirits. We are ones with the divine nature of God, New Creations or New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Actually we could question Gods justice for sending sinners to hell if it was just because their nature dictated sin. That wouldn't be fair to them for they were born that way and had no way out of it. Where we can't question Gods justice is when he's provided the way out of the sinful nature by receiving the new nature and yet a sinner still chooses to remain degenerate. I would say from Gods standpoint that's what the real issue is.
Hi Bobber,
Apparently my (rather lame) attempt at humor failed. I was being extremely facetious when I said that.
Seriously, I don't believe in the idea of a sinful nature. I believe all moral action is voluntary. While our physical bodies (nature) do indeed initiate many involuntary impulses, in and of themselves, these impulses are not sinful. They may in fact become an occasion of sin (like temptation can be), but sin is not committed until the will submits to the unlawful desire, as James says:
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
http://revivaltheology.net | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 8/31/2004 4:24 PM (GMT -6) | |
JEE, you sound more biblical in your sarcasm than in your wishful thinking. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. For He handed all over to disobiedence so that He might have mercy on all. For He gave them up to depraved minds... and Adam's sin was imputed upon us. For in sin David's mother concieved him and he was brought forth in iniquity. For above all our hearts are wicked and decietful, and we were once children of wrath, and also sold as slaves to sin, into a state of being where we could not submit to God's law, NOR could we do so. For the Holy Spirit moves as it wishes as the wind, and the Holy Spirit can so soveriegnly come upon whom He wills as He did John the Baptist before he left his mother's womb. For God has compassion on whom He wills and hardens whom He wills. For the sons pay for the sins of their father's to the third and fourth generations.
Who denies that moral action isn't voluntary? Perhaps only the Hyper-Calvinist or the Determinist, but certainly no Biblical Christian... would they? What does Scripture teach? For is it not the potters right to make of the same lump of clay a vessel for honor and another for dishonor? You WILL complain then and say, "Why does God still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But who are you oh man to talk back to God? Does the thing created have the right to say to the Creator why have you created me like this? In no way shape or form are our wills nuetral towards any inclination, and this i don't think you would dare disagree with. The sinful will is always bent towards enmity with God and hatred towards God and thus they always FREELY choose to sin, for this is the way their wills are bent. We are not nuetral, and if you think by chance we are, I challenge you to show me where in Scripture this doctrine is uplifted and I challenge you to show by experience how such can be. Our wills act in accordance with our strongest desire and those of the depraved sinful mind do not have their desires on heavenly things nor do they have their wills bent on submitting to God. Their greatest desire is themself and their own selfish desires. Many a free will has brought many a man to hell but NEVER to heaven. All is done for God's Glory, and all is done according the counsel of His own will, He does all He desires and His Word does not return to Him in vain but accomplishes all that He intends for it to. We are disobedient and remain disobedient when God so removes His sustaining and common grace upon us and allows us by our own selfish desires to wander away from Him. Is humanity that stupid? Yes. For man is nothing, he has a free will and that free will is go to hell until the Lord worketh in him to will and to do His good pleasure; and never forget that the soul is not destroyed but rather repaired by grace; and this is not of ourselves so that no one can boast!
For Christ's Glory and His Righteousness,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/1/2004 6:11 PM (GMT -6) | | Well JEE, what do you find so contradictory to Scripture, reason, and experience; as far as Calvinism goes.
Also, what if God wanting to break us of our stubborn wretched pride, urges, compels, and commands that we repent. Much like the prideful man tied to a chair; who doesn't think that he is tied; and to show him his own helplessness and depravity, you tell him to reach out and take the cup that will give him life (because he is quickly dying and needs the cup; and yet refuses to ask for help [grace] for surely it is not him who is tied)? And this whole time the man thinks he can, and so you yell all the louder for him to take his hand and grab the antidote. And the man still thinks he can. Until finally you break him of his pride and untie the ropes that bind him, you free him (something that you are not obligated to do), and set him free to drink of the cup that will save his life. And him, though unwilling to ask for help, you graciously untie so that he can see he was bound. For he was like a blind man who did not know what it was like to see until his sight was given back to him. Not because he asked to see, for he knew no different. Then I suppose all we could say is, "By the grace of God, I am what I am."
God DOES NOT and WILL NOT send an unwilling man to hell. All who go there desire to go there, and desire to go nowhere else. Many a man's free will has brought him to hell, but NEVER to heaven. "If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our bodies. And if they perish with our arms about their knees, imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, let not one fo there unwarned and unprayed for."
Grace to you,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 1:36 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by JEE
quote:
Originally posted by borg
Well JEE, what do you find so contradictory to Scripture, reason, and experience; as far as Calvinism goes.
God commands man, on pain of eternal death, not to do that which God knows full well man can in no way avoid. Do you deny that Calvinism says all mankind is condemned to hell because of the imputation of Adam's sin (or because of the "inherited sinful nature")?
They have the premise that man is totally corrupt.
Then they say the reason they know this is because of the bible, which was written by men.
According to their premise, they can't trust the words of those men.
Then they say they know those words are true due to the spirit.
Yet according to their premise, they can't trust that a spirit has confirmed anything to them because they themselves are totally corrupt.
PLUS, they claim "sola scriptura" which means ONLY SCRIPTURE, no spirit.
So they've chucked the spirit which they say they rely on to verify the words of totally corrupt men.
circular reasoning, pretzel logic
It's like handing you a book and saying, "this book is true", you open the book and read, "all people are liars". 
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/2/2004 7:27 AM (GMT -6) | | SOC, I'm intrigued by how grossly you misrepresnt our ideas. First, yes we uphold Sola Scriptura as being the ultimate end of things. We do not throw out the Spirit; you merely wish it was this easy to undermine biblical Christianity. "We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured. We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian's conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation."
Second, your ideas on Total Depravity are not correct either. Where you get these ideas, I don't know. "The usual way of arguing against one of the doctrines of grace is first, to misrepresent it so badly that no serious student of the Scripture would ever embrace it; then totally demolish it with arguments that have nothing at all to do with the issue."-- Randy Seiver. "When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man."-- John Piper. Can the Bible written by men be divine truth? Yes. Are these men still Totally Depraved apart from God's grace? Yes. So where's the catch that you so eagerly want people to see? For more information on these topics, so that we can both be properly educated, i direct you first and foremost to the Bible, then to www.monergism.com.
JEE, yes we are condemned because of Adam's sin. HOWEVER! it is not as though we being condemned don't want to be. We are equally guilty through our own sins and our own depravity. We are ALL God-haters, we are ALL prideful. No sinner is damned apart from wanting to be damned.
For Christ's Glory,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 8:01 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
Can the Bible written by men be divine truth? Yes.
Are these men still Totally Depraved apart from God's grace? Yes.
Totally depraved men wrote God's Truth? contradiction
It's the liar's paradox, can you believe a liar when he tells you all people are liars?
If a person claims to be totally depraved can you believe or trust him?
If he's telling the truth, then he isn't totally depraved.
If he's lying, then he's telling the truth and isn't totally depraved.
Either his premise is false or he's contradicting himself.
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/2/2004 8:11 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
We deny that ... personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation."
What I said, "sola scriptura, sans spiritus"
John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."
John 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."
Romans 8:14 "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God."
"Personal spiritual experience" CAN BE a vehicle of revelation because Paul told us to "test the spirits".
1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."
So scripture contradicts your "sola scriptura" right there.
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borg
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| Posted 9/2/2004 1:02 PM (GMT -6) | | Are we talking about the same definition of personal experience? I think not. The Spirit works through the Word my friend, never contradicting it. I cannot establish solid "divine" truth based on any personal experience. All must be tested, proven, and held to within the Holy Writ.
About your Total Depravity argument, you miss the fundamental key point. You refuse to acknowledge the clause, "Man's natural condition APART from any grace of God..." Where the men who wrote the Bible left to themselves? Left in their natural state? No given grace by God? NO. We in OUR NATURAL STATE are TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
Please read what I have to say and don't stay tuned into your false premises and inaccurate presuppositions.
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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Sisters of Cain
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Date Joined Mar 2004
Total Posts : 431
| Posted 9/3/2004 1:27 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by borg
About your Total Depravity argument, you miss the fundamental key point. You refuse to acknowledge the clause, "Man's natural condition APART from any grace of God..." Where the men who wrote the Bible left to themselves? Left in their natural state? No given grace by God? NO. We in OUR NATURAL STATE are TOTALLY DEPRAVED.
And because of that totally depraved natural state you can NEVER know whether anything they wrote is true, you can NEVER know if you've been regenerated, you can NEVER know ANY spiritual truth. ANYTHING you say or think COULD be your totally depraved natural state FOOLING yourself.
You say you know you've been given the grace of God but I say that's your vain, totally depraved natural state fooling yourself.
You claim to be totally incapable of understanding spiritual truth and you use the spiritual truth in scripture to support this. This is circular reasoning.
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borg
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Total Posts : 324
| Posted 9/3/2004 5:19 AM (GMT -6) | | First and foremost stop running from circular reasoning, it's not the worst thing in the world. secondly, you are therefore arguing that one cannot be assured of their salvation. to a degree. why do you think the Bible tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? I suppose Paul didn't really mean that, cause that doesn't make God loving? Or perhaps it doesn't count for those who said the magic little words when they were 5, they asked Jesus into their hearts and therefore MUST be saved.
We can have assurance of salvation, we can have assurance that the Bible is accurate. We have FAITH first and foremost! And if you're interested I can tell you why I beleive we can have assurance of salvation, but I have a feeling this is all falling on deaf ears and that you've made your opinion a dogma that Calvinism is wrong, that it's of the Devil, unbiblical, and not worth reading; if so, then there is no reason to continue to dialogue with you. If not, I look forward to further communication.
Grace Alone,
Borg
"So it is a more glorious work of power to uphold a soul in a state of grace and holiness, and to carry it on till it is brought to glory, when there is so much sin remaining in the heart resisting, and Satan with all his might opposing, than it would have been to have kept manfrom falling at first, when Satan had nothing in man." Edwards | | Back to Top | | |
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