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Dragon Chaser
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   Posted 1/31/2005 1:44 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Dear Dr. Boyd or anyone else that might have done some research on this topic.

 

I’m a recently reborn again Christian and I was wondering if anyone else might be going through this same dilemma as I am. The dilemma I’m having is dealing with the Book of Genesis and 21st century science. I have accepted Christ as my savior but I still believe in Evolution, Big Bang and Chaos theory. There is too much evidence in these facts for me to just through out the window.

 

I noticed that the authors of the first and last book of the Bible used a fair amount of Symbolism.  For instance, in Genesis it is written that God created Adam from the dust from the Earth. Could this not mean that Adam came from the earth, but not necessarily was poofed into existence from Gods magic wand?

 

There is evidence of silk worm moths evolving without the ability to fly because of domestication. Or would it be easier to think that God clipped their wings out of sympathy for them?

 

Thank you for open theism,

 

John


John R. Heys

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godrulz
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   Posted 1/31/2005 8:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Theistic evolution is problematic. It is not biblical nor scientific. If Genesis is not literal, then the Gospel is also suspect. This is a vast subject. The evidence for creation science and against evolution is out there.


www.icr.org


Know God and make Him known!

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/1/2005 2:46 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dear John,
 
You are not alone.  Jesus Christ is my God and savior, and I believe that, as best we know today, mainstream science including evolutionary theory describes the manner in which the universe developed its current form through his Word.
 
And you and I are not alone either.  Theistic evolution has been a viable (and in my opinion the most viable) Christian option on origins since mainstream scientific views on prehistory began to gell in the 19th century.  According to surveys approximately 40% of US scientists identify themselves as Christian, while far, far fewer than that reject evolutionary theory or other aspects of the mainstream.  And those that do, comprise numbers which are in inverse proportion to the degree of rejection.  What this means is that most US scientists who are Christian are theistic evolutionists, and most of those who aren't identify more closely with the so-called "intelligent design" movement (which simply denies that natural - ie providential, in the Christian view - processes are sufficient to drive evolution, and insists that miraculous processes must have been involved) than with young-earth creationism and its breathtaking denial of virtually everything related to mainstream views of prehistory.
 
And conversely, many Christian theologians - except in the most conservative Protestant traditions - have also felt that mainstream science and a proper understanding of the Bible and theology are compatible in this area.  The Catholic church agrees with this view as well as virtually all mainline Protestant denominations plus most moderate evangelical affiliations and some conservative ones.  Only when you reach the most conservative end of the US evangelical spectrum - eg the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and Presbyterian Church in America, and of course the Southern Baptist Convention - do you see opposition to theistic evolution.  And of course in the conservative evangelical "para-church" such opposition is fairly common, with a number of (mostly young-earth) creationist "ministries" like Answers in Genesis and Institute for Creation Research.
 
So you (we) are not alone and accordingly there are a vast number of resources available to you to investigate theistic evolution further.  If there is only one thing I agree with in the other responder's reply, it is that this is indeed a vast subject.  If you could describe one specific problem - such as how theistic evolutionists deal with "chance" and the randomness of evolution, or how they interpret Genesis 1-11 - I could summarize possible answers I'm aware of, and perhaps point you to articles and/or books for much more detail.  Feel free to email me if you wish.  Its been almost 19 years since I began investigating and struggling with this issue and so, albeit as a layman, I've been around the block a few times.
 
Best regards,
 
Scott
 
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Dragon Chaser
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   Posted 2/1/2005 3:10 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Nice reply Scott,

 

I was just typing this when you posted.

 

I think “creation science” is a term coined by the religious right to combat truths such as evolution and other scientific theories. If someone wants to call the “Flat Earth” view of creation science them maybe it could perceivably be taught in schools next to the secular sciences.

 

Peoples understanding of the bible has always been suspect. Everyone also has his or her own interpretation of it. I’m not trying to disprove the Bible because that would be impossible. I believe that reality, science and the bible are married. But you have to understand that a large contingent of people in the 21’st Century have a different view of the Universe then of the people before B.C.

 

 

Genesis 1:3 (New International Version)

 

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

 

Even the renowned Dr. Boyd made statements regarding Chaos Theory in his fine work  “Is God to blame?” If a butterfly flaps its wings in China it could conceivably affect the weather in New Your City. If terrorists blow up the world trade center it could change the economic and political climate of the whole world. Even if you’re not a scientist you could probably figure out there are such things as “cause and effect.”

 

Now that I got that out of the way lets look at light. God created light. Did God create a source for that light? Well of course he did. To the English-speaking people of the world it is called the sun. With cause and effect in mind, I would suspect God somehow created the sun first before “there was light.” So, how and why did God create this ball of Hydrogen burning at 2000 degrees Fahrenheit? Well my first guess is that because light was the first thing in existence there must have been this great big wonderful chaotic blast (Bang) of energy (light). Naturally in the cosmos atoms pull themselves together to make balls. If God created light without a source in the physical Universe I have never seen it personally.


John R. Heys

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/1/2005 4:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragon Chaser said...

...

But you have to understand that a large contingent of people in the 21’st Century have a different view of the Universe then of the people before B.C.

Absolutely.  Here is a nice, concise diagram of what we now know (based on 19th and 20th century archaeology as well as historical criticism of the preserved literature) to have been the general cosmology in the Ancient Near East:
 
 
The fact is that every single biblical allusion to cosmological features - earth, sky, seas - concords with this picture much better than with modern science.  Not to mention that within Genesis 1 itself the basic physical structures there mentioned, which cause us such puzzlement today, suddenly make sense in light of this picture: things like day and night before anything else; waters above and below; something called a "firmament" that seems to be somewhere above us, dividing the waters; etc.
 
When I first learned many years back about ANE cosmology and re-read Genesis 1, it was like "the scales falling away from my eyes".  From a Christian perspective, clearly what has happened here is that God has let scripture be accommodated to the culture of the time - just like he has with scripture in many other ways, and just as he did with himself, in the incarnation.
 
The lesson is that, if God accommodates his revelation to modes of thought on mundane matters at the time, then we have no more reason to expect any concord between scripture and the historical sciences than we find between scripture and the cosmological sciences.
 
Scott
 
PS.  The diagram comes from Denis Lamoureux (spelling?), theistic evolutionist biologist and theologian at the University of Alberta in Canada.  You can find a good online article touching on this and many other things related to theistic evolution (which he calls "evolutionary creationism") at http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm .  This is one of many available resources.

Post Edited (scott_jorgenson) : 2/1/2005 3:23:30 PM (GMT-6)

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Similitude
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   Posted 2/1/2005 8:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Scott,

Scott said...
The lesson is that, if God accommodates his revelation to modes of thought on mundane matters at the time, then we have no more reason to expect any concord between scripture and the historical sciences than we find between scripture and the cosmological sciences.
Your logical consistency is admirable, but dragonslayer is trying to accomodate "light there be light" with the big bang hypothesis.  This is NOT what you are advocating is it? 


wjs

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/1/2005 11:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...

Scott,

Scott said...
The lesson is that, if God accommodates his revelation to modes of thought on mundane matters at the time, then we have no more reason to expect any concord between scripture and the historical sciences than we find between scripture and the cosmological sciences.
Your logical consistency is admirable, but dragonslayer is trying to accomodate "light there be light" with the big bang hypothesis.  This is NOT what you are advocating is it? 

Right.  When it comes to the Bible and science, there are those who think it important to find concord between them and there are those who think that is beside the point.  I, and probably the large majority of theistic evolutionists, find the latter approach more viable.
 
But some theistic evolutionists still strive for concord, such as Glenn Morton (former young-earther).  And I will admit that it is interesting that some parts of the Genesis 1-3 text seem to allegorically echo certain aspects of mainstream science - for example, the reference to the creation of light as being the first creative act seems reminiscent of the Big Bang, and the references to the earth being commanded to bring forth life, and Adam being formed of the soil, seems suggestive of evolution (that is, creation of life through secondary means rather than direct intervention).
 
But honestly I think there is much more in Genesis 1-3 that simply doesn't fit well with the mainstream view, even allegorically, than does.  For example, the order of creation events on days 1-6 simply doesn't align with the mainstream understanding.  But those days and their events do fit very well with the ANE cosmological and theological context, as well as exhibiting a striking literary framework (among other literary characteristics) suggesting artistic composition rather than historical chronicle.  This convergence of evidence (the literary and the ANE evidence) upon the common conclusion that what we have here is not meant to be a factually-accurate chronicle of the creation process, is what convinces me contra concordism.
 
Scott
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Dragon Chaser
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   Posted 2/2/2005 1:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks Scott for such an informative post. If you look at that timetable also you will notice it says God separated the water from the land witch is the natural process of Earths maturity. Moreover much of that water became atmosphere.

Another good point is that God created the sea and air creatures before man witch is 100% percent consistent with Archeology and paleontology as from what we have discovered so far. Evolution “fact” confirms Genesis and proves that it was divinely inspired. Because people at that time could of never understand any of this evolutionary process. Much like many people today that don’t appreciate science. It’s funny if you look at that modal of what their view of the cosmos was.


John R. Heys

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Humphrey Bogart
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   Posted 2/2/2005 7:14 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Dragon Chaser said...
If you look at that timetable also you will notice it says God separated the water from the land witch is the natural process of Earths maturity.


Hey, how did witches get dragged into this topic? Now we're in trouble! lol
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Similitude
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   Posted 2/2/2005 7:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scott,
 
Scott said...
But some theistic evolutionists still strive for concord, such as Glenn Morton (former young-earther).
 
Interesting you mention Glenn Morton.  It was my correspondence with Glen in the 80's that convinced me that YEC was false.  I agree with you, though, that his concordism is unconvincing.
 
Scott said...
But honestly I think there is much more in Genesis 1-3 that simply doesn't fit well with the mainstream view, even allegorically, than does.  For example, the order of creation events on days 1-6 simply doesn't align with the mainstream understanding.  But those days and their events do fit very well with the ANE cosmological and theological context, as well as exhibiting a striking literary framework (among other literary characteristics) suggesting artistic composition rather than historical chronicle.
 
Do you have a link which explains "those days and their events."  I'm unaware of what similar days and events show up in ANE cosmology.  Thanks!


wjs

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markporter
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   Posted 2/2/2005 2:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I don't think there's anything inherently disprovable about Glenn's view, it's just for many of us it seems implausible.
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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/2/2005 3:02 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
jefscott said...
Scott,
...
Do you have a link which explains "those days and their events."  I'm unaware of what similar days and events show up in ANE cosmology.  Thanks!
Jeff,
 
I was primarily thinking of the ANE creation myth "Enuma Elish" which was found in the 19th century, recorded on stone tablets, during the excavation of Ninevah.  The tablets were found in the library of the Assyrian king Ashurbanipal and date to the 12th century BC though some scholars think the tradition they record may date back to the 18th century BC.  Although found in an Assyrian city, Enuma Elish is Babylonian in its orientation and thus seems to be indicative of a spread of Babylonian religion through Mesopotamia.  You can read the Enuma Elish with some commentary here: http://www.cresourcei.org/enumaelish.html
 
Enuma Elish and Genesis 1 share many similarities in the physical structures of whose creation they tell, and in the sequence of their creation.  This is what I meant by there being a good fit between the Genesis 1 creation days and events, and the ANE cosmological context:
  • Enuma Elish and Genesis 1 both begin with a primordial watery abyss.  EE Tablet 1 lines 1-5:  "When on high the heaven had not been named, and firm ground below had not been called by name; when primordial Apsu, their begetter, and Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all, their waters mingled as a single body..."
  • Enuma Elish's first explicit, physical creation event is when the god Marduk defeats the goddess who represents that watery abyss, Tiamat, and splits her body in two.  Marduk raises one half of Tiamat up, to become the firmament of the sky, which holds back her waters above.  The similarity with the events and physical structures of the second day of Genesis 1 is obvious; as well as with the standard biblical view (eg in Genesis 6-8) that the sky is something like a solid barrier for a sea of water above it.  EE Tablet IV lines 135-140: "Then the lord paused to view her dead body, that he might divide the form and do artful works.  He split her like a shellfish into two parts: Half of her he set up as a covering for heaven, pulled down the bar and posted guards.  He bade them to allow not her waters to escape." 
  • The next explicit creation of a physical structure in Enuma Elish is when Marduk creates the stars, moon and sun, in the vault of the firmament that he had just established.  These entities are assigned the roles of signifying day, night, seasons and times.  Again, the similarity with the events and physical structures of the fourth day of Genesis 1 is plain.  For example, EE Tablet V lines 1-6, 11-12: "He constructed stations for the great gods, fixing their astral likenesses as the stars of the Zodiac.  He determined the year and into sections he divided it; he set up three constellations for each of the twelve months.  After defining the days of the year by means of heavenly figures, he founded the station of the pole star...In her belly he established the zenith.  The Moon he caused to shine, entrusting the night to him."
    And it goes on to next relate the creation of the sun.
  • Enuma Elish's third explicit, physical creation event is when Marduk fashions clouds and rain from Tiamat's spittle - this has no biblical parallel.  But after that, he takes the other half of Tiamat and fashions the dry land out of it.  Just like her first half holds back the waters above, her second half is surrounded and undergirded by waters below, which feed the Tigris and Euphrates and all the springs of earth.  The similarity with the earth separated from the sea on day 3 of Genesis 1, as well as with the biblical view of the earth being founded atop the seas, is clear.  EE Tablet V lines 53-56: "Putting her head into position he formed thereon the mountains.  Opening the deep which was in flood, he caused to flow from her eyes the Euphrates and Tigris; stopping her nostrils, he left."
  • The final explicit physical creation event in Enuma Elish is when Marduk creates mankind to populate the earth.  As in Genesis 1, man is the final creation.  EE Tablet IV lines 5-7 (Marduk speaking): "I will take blood and fashion bone.  I will establish a savage, ‘man’ shall be his name.  Truly, savage-man I will create."  And it goes on to relate the actual creation of man from the blood of a god.

In addition there are some other similarites: The Hebrew word for the watery abyss, tehom, has a linguistic relationship with the name Tiamat, who in the Babylonian pantheon represents that same abyss.  Some Hebrew scholars have argued that the Hebrew construction of Genesis 1:1 suggests a "when..." phrasing (as in "When God began creating the heavens and earth...") instead of the popular "In the beginning..." - which is similar to how Enuma Elish opens.  At the end of both Enuma Elish and Genesis 1-2:4, the creator rests (in Enuma Elish a heavenly celebratory banquet is held).  And there is the fact that Enuma Elish itself was found divided onto 7 stone tablets, one apparently referencing each day of the week - thus suggesting the belief that this creation stretched over 7 days (though nowhere is such a scheme actually mentioned in the story). 

Now, there are differences too in the physical creation events and their sequence.  Dry land (day 3 in Genesis 1) is not explicitly created by Marduk until after the creation of the heavenly bodies (day 4 in Genesis 1).  Marduk explicitly creates clouds and rain, something not reflected in Genesis 1.  And Genesis 1 recounts the creation of light, plants and animals, something Enuma Elish overlooks.  But still I think the similarities in physical structures, what is primordial versus what is created, the physical creation events themselves, and how they are sequenced, is striking - especially considering that no other creation accounts outside of the ANE context bear a similarity as close.

What it suggests is that ANE "science" considered the physical universe to be composed of such structures and to have been created progressively over time (perhaps a cycle of days) beginning from a primordial singularity (the deep).  And Genesis 1 has been accommodated to this popular understanding, in much the same way Jesus' reference to the mustard seed (as being the smallest of all seeds) is accommodated.  For despite their theological differences with the rest of the ANE, the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews seem to have respected the ANE's "secular" knowledge, which is nowhere disparaged in scripture and, when it is referred to at all, is referred to as "wisdom" (as in Daniel 1 and Stephen's characterization of Moses' training in Acts 7).

But beyond these physical similarities, Genesis 1 and Enuma Elish couldn't be more different.  EE is highly polytheistic and "dream-time" mythological.  Indeed the actual creation of the physical universe doesn't get going until the end of Tablet IV; until then EE is entirely occupied by the creation of the pantheon of gods, their bickering and warring.  In EE, the creation is the byproduct of divine war and the created structures are themselves representations of gods and in some cases even made out of a dead goddess.  Marduk assembles the created structures by physical and anthropomorphic manipulation, and creates humanity (from the blood of another dead god) for the express purpose of slavery to the gods so that the gods may take it easy.  And moral terms are absent from the account.

The contrast of this theology taught in EE, with the theology taught in Genesis, is so clear that Genesis 1 seems to be a polemic against that polytheistic, animistic, and amoral ANE theology, expressed in the "science" of the day in the same way that all scripture is.  In Genesis 1 there is one God and no other who creates all other things subservient to him.  The sun and moon (very common astral deities in the ANE context) are not even considered worth mentioning by name.  This God of Genesis 1 creates by divine fiat and is in serene control at all times; creation is made out of peace and goodness and is itself good.  And man is given the divine image, male and female alike; and is appointed to be stewards of the creation rather than menial slaves.  Point by point, these theological claims which seem so familiar to us as to be taken for granted stand juxtaposed, almost intentionally and polemically so, with the claims of EE.  This is what I meant by saying that Genesis 1 fits with the ANE theological context, although here the fit is one of contra-distinction.

Incidentally, this theology packaged in the vessel of Genesis 1 is, so far as I know, the first such to have ever occured anywhere, in any culture.  It is so radically different that surely it represents God's light and truth beginning to break forth in the world.  That is the revelation in my opinion; not the "science" obtained by reading it as historical chronicle.

Hope this helps,

Scott

 

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/2/2005 3:07 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
markporter said...
I don't think there's anything inherently disprovable about Glenn's view, it's just for many of us it seems implausible.
I agree.  God bless Glenn Morton and the good role he plays in providing his alternative for those who recognize the overwhelming evidence supporting mainstream science and who need (for whatever philosophical or theological reasons) there to be a historical creation account in the Bible.  I don't mean to disrespect Glenn at all, even though I am more convinced by an ahistorical approach.
 
Scott
 
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Tom
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   Posted 2/2/2005 3:53 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey Scott-

Do you think "death" was a natural feature of the physical world prior to the entrace of human sin? If so, what sense do you make of Paul's claim that death is the result of sin and an "enemy" to be defeated?

Tom


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Dragon Chaser
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   Posted 2/2/2005 4:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Lol. “Land Witch” is the opposite of “Sea Hag.” Sorry, I was pretty exhausted when I wrote that.

I’m with Scott in that I draw my conclusions from mostly a historical context. Mostly, because scientists have discovered more in the last 50 - 100 years than ever. Unfortunately, people like Galileo where scorned for searching for facts and even murdered by the church Inquisition style. I just recently discovered open theism and theist evolutionism, and I couldn’t be any happier. I can believe in God and not disregard facts for the first time in my life.

I believe it was Peter who asked Jesus what the Kingdom of God is like. Jesus proclaimed that the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed that starts out barely the size of an atom but grows to be the most predominant and most beautiful plant in the garden. If that doesn’t tell you about the nature of God and his creation then I don’t know how to explain it better than the Lord himself.

God was obviously using symbolism when he was referring to the 6-day workweek in Genesis. I really doubt God punches a time clock. A day to God is a Millennium and a Millennium a day. So, God does not feel the effects of time like us mere mortals do, obviously. It seems like God was describing the events in order in which creation was/is-taking place in a way mere mortals could somewhat understand.

I do take the Bible literally but even Jesus himself used parables and symbolism to project his message in his teachings. People at that time could not understand what he was saying most of the time. The Disciples of Christ could not decipher his parables and asked him what they meant afterwards. And even then they where mostly confused. In Dr. Boyd’s book “Repenting from religion” chapter one “the goal of creation and dancing with the trinity” does a good job in explaining how old traditional religious thinking and rituals can do more harm than good.

God rules,


John R. Heys

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/2/2005 6:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
TGB said...
Hey Scott-

Do you think "death" was a natural feature of the physical world prior to the entrace of human sin? If so, what sense do you make of Paul's claim that death is the result of sin and an "enemy" to be defeated?

Tom
Tom,
 
Well, the scientific evidence is incontrovertible - more so than the evidence for evolution per se even - that physical death and physical life have always gone hand-in-hand.  There has never been a time in which living organisms have not died, so far as mainstream science can tell.  If there has been, it certainly hasn't been preserved in the fossil record, at least; and the laws of population and possibly the laws of physics (thermodynamics) themselves weigh against such a thing ever having been possible without miraculous intervention.
 
The first thing I would observe is that Paul connects sin to "death" (whatever that might be - see below) only with respect to humankind.  For example, Romans 5:12 (NIV): "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned..."  Animal death is nowhere attributed to humanity's sin, and plant death (which at the cellular level is no different than animal death) is explicitly ordained from the beginning (Genesis 1:29-30).
 
Some theistic evolutionists would therefore posit that only the original humans were physically immortal, and fell into physical mortality because of the first sin.  If the original human population were small and concentrated enough, and the duration between their creation and their sin was short enough, we wouldn't expect such a "blip" to appear within the fossil record anyway.  But the majority, including myself, cannot buy this, in part because it special-pleads away the fossil record (which shows humanity and all its ancestors in continuity being subject to death wherever and whenever they have existed) by appealing to events too local for it to resolve, and in part because - given our understanding of how evolution operates - it is difficult to discern what would have distinguished those first physically-immortal humans from their mortal nonhuman ancestors so much as to justify attributing physical immortality to them.
 
So then what?  I would next observe that physical death is not clearly connected to the first sin within Genesis 2-3 in the first place.  As "conditionalists" (aka "annihilationists") have long noted, nothing in either creation account clearly indicates that man (or anything else, for that matter) was created immortal, let alone physically immortal.  Man will return to dust (Genesis 3:19) but the pronounced curse is rather one of hardship during life (3:17); that man will return to dust is an observation and not necessarily part of the curse.  In the garden, man is not prohibited from eating from the tree of life until after his sin (3:22); but the wording suggests that man had not eaten from it prior to his sin either, just as he hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge until then.  And in any case, note that God's warning to Adam was that he would surely die if and when he eats from the tree of knowledge (2:17); this in fact does not happen, however, and Adam goes on to live for hundreds of years.  But note that mankinds separation from intimate relationship with God begins immediately - perhaps this is what God's threat of death really means?  In any case, if we see Genesis 2-3 as a parable, an Everyman story of how each one of us eats from that tree and separates ourselves from God, then there is even less reason to look for historical and literal referents to physical death in the story.
 
As for Paul: while I think it likely that he (the human author Paul) had physical death in mind, it likewise is not clear to me that physical death is all he had in mind, nor that physical death being a consequence of human sin is part of God's teaching point in Paul's writing.  In Romans 5:18 Paul writes: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."  And similarly in 1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."  Since the references to "life" in regard to Christ cannot possibly mean physical life, it seems difficult to make the references to "death" necessarily mean physical death.  As I said, I think it likely that physical death is part of what Paul the time-and-culture-bound man was thinking of, but his main point - our teaching point - was that, just as spiritual death follows from sin as modeled in the story of Adam, so too spiritual life follows from Christ.
 
I would lastly observe that elsewhere Paul himself suggests that creation has been less-than-perfect from the beginning, and awaits perfection just as we do in the eschaton.  I am thinking of Romans 8:19-22 here, but in particular verse 20: "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it..."  This suggests that the creation's bondage to decay and death is placed on it by the will of God, not by outward-ripple-effect of man's sin which certainly would not have been God's will.  After all, in Genesis 1 God pronounces his creation "good" but he does not pronounce it "perfect".  And so it seems permissible to see the eschaton, not as a restoration of a fleeting past glory, but as the culmination of creation.  This creation is the crucible in which we work out our choices in an environment that allows true freedom and love to be possible; but it is not the end-all and be-all and never has been.  God knows its hard to understand and live through; but we are not alone, for he goes through it with us, in the incarnation and crucifixion. 
 
That's my take at an answer.  Theodicy is one of the toughest problems and insomuch as your question bears upon theodicy it is a tough one for which to find a satisfying answer.  Some other theistic evolutionists would answer it differently; for example, some feel that a historical Adam's first sin reverberated ontologically backward and forward throughout creation and time, paradoxically causing the past to be the way it was.  Others feel, as I mentioned above, that a historical Adam's sin robbed mankind of the immortality we would otherwise have had, but that this past event was too pinpoint to have been scientifically detectable.  I believe there are a paper or two out there on the Internet on this subject (I could find a URL for you if interested); and also an essay or two in the book Perspectives on an Evolving Creation edited by theistic evolutionist and evangelical Christian paleontologist Keith Miller.
 
Best regards,
 
Scott
 
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JEE
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   Posted 2/2/2005 6:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Excellent post, Scott. While I personally retain some reservations about theistic evolution, to the extent that I find the Genesis account of creation to be epic poetry fashioned similarly to ancient near east mythology, I certainly agree with much of what you say. I especially agree that spiritual death is primarily what the story of the Fall was meant to convey.

Blessings in Christ,

John Earp


May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.


JohnE


http://revivaltheology.net

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markporter
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   Posted 2/2/2005 6:43 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
scott_jorgenson said...
markporter said...

I don't think there's anything inherently disprovable about Glenn's view, it's just for many of us it seems implausible.
I agree. God bless Glenn Morton and the good role he plays in providing his alternative for those who recognize the overwhelming evidence supporting mainstream science and who need (for whatever philosophical or theological reasons) there to be a historical creation account in the Bible. I don't mean to disrespect Glenn at all, even though I am more convinced by an ahistorical approach.


Scott


Yeah, he does a good work.

What do you mean by an ahistorical approach? are you going for no historical descent of the human race into sin? or merely no literal adam and eve as in individuals?
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One Love
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   Posted 2/2/2005 7:17 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Irresistable. Simply irresitable.

Scott:
As for Paul: while I think it likely that he (the human author Paul) had physical death in mind, it likewise is not clear to me that physical death is all he had in mind, nor that physical death being a consequence of human sin is part of God's teaching point in Paul's writing. In Romans 5:18 Paul writes: "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men." And similarly in 1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." Since the references to "life" in regard to Christ cannot possibly mean physical life, it seems difficult to make the references to "death" necessarily mean physical death. As I said, I think it likely that physical death is part of what Paul the time-and-culture-bound man was thinking of, but his main point - our teaching point - was that, just as spiritual death follows from sin as modeled in the story of Adam, so too spiritual life follows from Christ.

Some things...

1) What way is the teaching point discerned? Obviously, it's not by strict historical-grammatical type exegesis ala authorial intent. It seems that we are saying that the divine "teaching point" can be different from authorial intent. (Something that many conservative evangelicals would highly questions). For example, you seem to be saying that Paul could have been intending to talk HIS audience about human spiritual AND physical death coming from a literal Adam's sin...but that's not the ESSENTIAL divine "teaching" that WE should glean from it. So, what are the presuppositions upon which any given divine "teaching point" is found and in WHAT WAY is it teased out from it's human trappings?


2) Is there sometimes when there is a NON-divine teaching point versus a divine teaching point? If so, how does one distinguish between the two?

3) What is the "teaching point" of 1 Tim 2:11-15 anyway? Is it divine or non-divine? Why?

4) What is the "teaching point of Mark 10:5-9, since it seems to be built upon the Gen 2 creation story? Is it divine or non-divine? Why?

Don't want to derail things at all. I just wanted to see answers to these questions briefly.


_______________________


Scott:
I would lastly observe that elsewhere Paul himself suggests that creation has been less-than-perfect from the beginning, and awaits perfection just as we do in the eschaton. I am thinking of Romans 8:19-22 here, but in particular verse 20: "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it..." This suggests that the creation's bondage to decay and death is placed on it by the will of God, not by outward-ripple-effect of man's sin which certainly would not have been God's will. After all, in Genesis 1 God pronounces his creation "good" but he does not pronounce it "perfect". And so it seems permissible to see the eschaton, not as a restoration of a fleeting past glory, but as the culmination of creation. This creation is the crucible in which we work out our choices in an environment that allows true freedom and love to be possible; but it is not the end-all and be-all and never has been. God knows its hard to understand and live through; but we are not alone, for he goes through it with us, in the incarnation and crucifixion.

I don't know about the bolded part. According to some commentaries, God did "subject" the creation to decay..as a RESPONSE to human sin, using human sin towards divine ends. But God did so "in hope", which goes well with God's promise about the seed of the woman bruising the head of the serpent. While one can make an argument for an "upward fall" from this text, that doesn't negate the idea about the death and decay coming from the HUMAN fall.
devil

PS: Thanks for the returned correspondence, Scott! I'll try to hit you up later! Just been busy.


"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/2/2005 8:16 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
markporter said...
 

What do you mean by an ahistorical approach? are you going for no historical descent of the human race into sin? or merely no literal adam and eve as in individuals?
It's my view that the fall is existential and thus historical as well.  All of us, of our own accord (not due to any "inherited" transmission from an ancestor), inevitably sin; and such has been true of all humans since humanity first began.  Thus the first humans sinned in history, just as you and I do today, even though they (and us) had the option not to.  Thus we all fall.
 
Incidentally I do not think this contravenes Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15.  If Genesis 2-3 is understood as parable, then the parable applies to everyone, us as well as the first humans; so Paul can draw his analogy between the first man Adam (representative of whoever the first human(s) were, as well as being representative of all of us) and the last man Christ just as well as if the first man Adam was a literal reference.
 
Scott
 

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scott_jorgenson
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   Posted 2/2/2005 8:45 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MephEternal said...
...
Some things...

1) What way is the teaching point discerned? Obviously, it's not by strict historical-grammatical type exegesis ala authorial intent. It seems that we are saying that the divine "teaching point" can be different from authorial intent. (Something that many conservative evangelicals would highly questions). For example, you seem to be saying that Paul could have been intending to talk HIS audience about human spiritual AND physical death coming from a literal Adam's sin...but that's not the ESSENTIAL divine "teaching" that WE should glean from it. So, what are the presuppositions upon which any given divine "teaching point" is found and in WHAT WAY is it teased out from it's human trappings?

2) Is there sometimes when there is a NON-divine teaching point versus a divine teaching point? If so, how does one distinguish between the two?

3) What is the "teaching point" of 1 Tim 2:11-15 anyway? Is it divine or non-divine? Why?

4) What is the "teaching point of Mark 10:5-9, since it seems to be built upon the Gen 2 creation story? Is it divine or non-divine? Why?

...
Scott:
I am thinking of Romans 8:19-22 here, but in particular verse 20: "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it..." This suggests that the creation's bondage to decay and death is placed on it by the will of God, not by outward-ripple-effect of man's sin which certainly would not have been God's will.

I don't know about the bolded part. According to some commentaries, God did "subject" the creation to decay..as a RESPONSE to human sin, using human sin towards divine ends. But God did so "in hope", which goes well with God's promise about the seed of the woman bruising the head of the serpent...
 
about discerning the timeless teaching point from the culturally-bound language - that's the trick, isn't it :-)  I'm not going to give you a simple answer other than to say that I think we do it by taking all the evidence into account, including applicable prior theologizing about hermeneutics, and arriving at what seems to be the best inference. 
 
But its a process we already do on many other occasions and regarding problems no less tricky, such as what intention God ever had with the Law and especially the purity code (since he seems quite literal and insistent about it in the Pentateuch and Deuteronomic books, but less so in the prophets, and of course then there's Jesus and the apostles).  Or, since you mention it, what purpose God had with the instructions to Timothy regarding the proper place of women.  I don't believe that any "grosser" hermeneutic is being applied in interpreting scripture regarding creation history, than is being applied by we Christians already regarding such questions.  (And we shouldn't any more expect agreement on the creation questions than we accordingly see agreement on the latter!)
 
You asked for my brief answer on that, so that's it :-)
 
As to the interpretation you gave for Romans 8:20 - yes, that is possible but discerning between the two interpretations (the one I offered and the one you offered) quickly leads into the same old theodicy dilemma regarding the degree of God's ultimate responsibility for evil even when it is caused by secondary agents.  There are even conflicting biblical perspectives on this - witness how the Chronicler attributes the instigation of David's census to Satan while the editor of Kings attributes it to God.  Perhaps the book of Job best integrates the two perspectives; applying Job's insight to the fall, we could say that even though man is responsible for sin, it is God who ultimately permits it to happen and thus God who ultimately "wills", not only that there be consequences to sin, but that sin be possible in the first place.  Thus while your interpretation is possible, the one I gave is as well; for if God wills the kind of world that he created at the beginning - a world where sin is possible so that love might be possible - ie a free world - then perhaps God must will a world from the beginning where death and suffering exist - for without those consequences how could it be said the world was free.
 
Theodicy gives me a headache!
 
Scott
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One Love
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   Posted 2/2/2005 9:24 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Scott,

Thanks for your brief response, man. Just wanted you to know that I've always appreciated your posts as being being insightful, erudite, and quite irenic. Definitely classic thoughts. Thanks for your input. I'll be hitting you up, soon.

Ok...NOW back to the hiatus...

Thanks,
devil

PS: Theodicy makes my head hurt too. I think I'm just a sadistic glutton for punishment. rotfl


"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."

--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God

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markporter
Fire over Oxford




Date Joined Oct 2003
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   Posted 2/3/2005 5:20 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
scott_jorgenson said...
markporter said...



What do you mean by an ahistorical approach? are you going for no historical descent of the human race into sin? or merely no literal adam and eve as in individuals?

It's my view that the fall is existential and thus historical as well. All of us, of our own accord (not due to any "inherited" transmission from an ancestor), inevitably sin; and such has been true of all humans since humanity first began. Thus the first humans sinned in history, just as you and I do today, even though they (and us) had the option not to. Thus we all fall.



Incidentally I do not think this contravenes Paul in Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. If Genesis 2-3 is understood as parable, then the parable applies to everyone, us as well as the first humans; so Paul can draw his analogy between the first man Adam (representative of whoever the first human(s) were, as well as being representative of all of us) and the last man Christ just as well as if the first man Adam was a literal reference.



Scott


I'm quite wary of looking at the passage in that way, I think that the theology of the Bible works much better with an initial human descent into sin and with us living under those consequences rather than a totally uniform history with everyone always sinning in the same kind of way and for the same reasons.
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Similitude
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   Posted 2/3/2005 7:41 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks for the info Scott!!  I'll be printing it off or reading as usual!


wjs

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Laika
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   Posted 2/3/2005 10:49 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
scott_jorgenson said...
TGB said...
Hey Scott-

Do you think "death" was a natural feature of the physical world prior to the entrace of human sin? If so, what sense do you make of Paul's claim that death is the result of sin and an "enemy" to be defeated?

Tom
Tom,
 
Well, the scientific evidence is incontrovertible - more so than the evidence for evolution per se even - that physical death and physical life have always gone hand-in-hand.  There has never been a time in which living organisms have not died, so far as mainstream science can tell.  If there has been, it certainly hasn't been preserved in the fossil record, at least;
 
Why would you expect the fossil record to contain an organism that hasn't died? 
 
 


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