Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/14/2006 12:06:43 AM (GMT-6)

Q: In 1 Cor 10:8, who were the 23,000 people who died in one day?
A: Genuine Christians give four interpretations.
1. Exodus 32:28 mentions a time early in the Exodus, when Aaron made the golden calf, and 3,000 were killed by the sword in one day. At the same time, others were killed by plague in Exodus 32:35
See Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties p.141,401 and When Critics Ask p.458-459 for more on this answer.
2. Paul made a numerical typo when he wrote this down. Hard Sayings of the Bible p.597-598 gives this interpretation. This would mean that the Bible is not inerrant (without any error), but they Bible would be infallible (without significant theological error).
3. Numbers 25:9 mentions the time late in the Exodus at Shittim, when the Midianite women tempted the Israelite men and 24,000 men were killed. Two possible ways to resolve the numbers, is:
3a) 23,000 is only one day, and 24,000 is the total
3b) 23,000 is only the people, and 24,000 is the people and the leaders.
See the The Bible Knowledge Commentary : New Testament p.526 and The Expositor’s Bible Commentary volume 10 p.249 for more info on 3.
Tertullian said 24,000 died in the plague of Midian, but did not specify in how many days in On Modesty ch.6 p.79
4. Paul is referring to those who died, and 24,000 is a round number, possibly from a Rabbinic tradition. See Bible Difficulties and Seeming Contradictions p.202-203 for more info on this answer.

The issue is, “Is the truth expressed accurate within accepted cultural norms when it was written?” It issue is not 20^th century scientific accuracy. This is a point sometimes missed by defenders of inerrancy who try to establish that the Bible conforms to 20^th century norms of precision.

 

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=679

Sheesh! I sure apologize for the choppy writing. I'm simply noe one who can write it right the first time.

Post Edited (Starkman) : 1/14/2006 12:21:00 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/14/2006 12:16:58 PM (GMT-6)

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/14/2006 2:36:58 PM (GMT-6)

We believe in one God,
  the Father, the Almighty,
  maker of heaven and earth,
  of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
  the only Son of God,
  eternally begotten of the Father,
  God from God, Light from Light,
  true God from true God,
  begotten, not made,
  of one Being with the Father.
  Through him all things were made.
  For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
  by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
      in accordance with the scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
  who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
  He has spoken through the Prophets.
  We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
  We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
  We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come.  Amen.

 
. . .in accordance with the scriptures. . . For our sake  
he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. 
On the third day he rose again he ascended into heaven  
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,  
and his kingdom will have no end.

BELIEVE THAT. 

Then go outside. Its a nice day!

Post Edited (jefscott) : 1/14/2006 6:41:16 PM (GMT-6)

Jeff:
Those people are not on this forum, though.

Meph: They aren't? Are you sure about that?

Jeff:  Well, pretty sure!

Mephi: You can't just go into any right-of-center evangelical church and say that all people can be redeemed, even Satan.

Tom: Wrong. You can’t go to ANY evangelical church—period—and say this. They’ll run ya outta town.

Mephi: There are a COUPLE of preachers around the country that I know that are closet universalists and open theists...but won't say JACK about either position where they are...because they know the ramifications.

Tom: Dang right.

Mephi: Do you see the mess going on in the Evangelical Theological Society over open theism? Can you IMAGINE the hubbub that would take place over allowing for universalism?

Tom: It would be a blood bath.

Mephi: It's NOT just about epistemological humility. (Oh, how I wish it WERE!!)

Tom: I wish it were too.

----------------------

Mephi: You can't just go into any right-of-center evangelical church and say that all people can be redeemed, even Satan.

Jeff: Those people are not on this forum, though.

Tom: A few are. But more are watching. Believing me, they’re watching.

-----------------------

Jeff: The lay folks are more apt to have knee-jerk reactions to things from fear of the slippery slope.

Tom: By far MOST of the negative reactions to open theism that I’ve encountered have not been from lay folk. They’ve been from church leaders.

----------------------

POW: CHRISTIANS are NOT "people of a book." That's NOT what Christianity is.

Tom: I totally agree! At the same time I don’t know that we would have survived without a book. Maybe that shows my lack of imagination, but it just doesn’t seem very realistic to imagine the Church without a “book.”

---------------------------

Violin: So... here's what could have happened...

23,000 died from the plague on day 1.

1,000 died from the plague on day 2.  (or vice versa)

Total who died from the plague is 24,000 (Num. 25.9). Paul emphasized only 23,000 to make a point of what can happen in a 24-hour period as a result of sin.

Tom: Yeah, Fee mentioned this:

Most of the “harmonistic” solutions are less than satisfactory at best, e.g., that 23,000 fell on “one day” while the others died later (Mare, 249; this lies beyond the possibility of demonstration, nor does it fit with the plain sense of the text; besides, where did Paul have access to such a tradition?); or that the actual number was 23,500, which the Pentateuch and Paul “round off” in different directions (see H. Lindsell, The Battle for the Bible…which he takes quite seriously; but since Paul had access only to the text that already had it rounded off at 24,000, where did he learn of the “correct” number, and why did he round it off downward?).

Could it have happened that way? Sure, it’s not impossible. But I’m just less and less inclined to create scenarios that are “logically possible” but which “lie beyond the possibility of demonstration.” Like Jeff noted, we have to give some account for how Paul would come by this bit of information. If that’s really what happened, and neither our text nor any textual tradition we know of mentions it, then we have to create a textual tradition known to Paul but no longer in existence which spells out this bit of information. That seems a bit of a stretch. And since the very number Paul does mention (23,000) is found in the next chapter, isn’t that the most likely source?

Same thing goes for JFB’s comment. They say “Whichever be the true way of reconciling the statements, at least they are not irreconcileable.”

But here’s the thing. It’s one thing to take two seemingly contradictory truth claims out of their contexts and just hold them up and come up with some logically possible harmonization. But then we have to show how the proposed harmonization could have been realistically possible given the context. So given the text(s) Paul has before him, how could he have known that 23,000 died in one day and 1,000 died the next day?

After so many stretches and far-fetched logical “outs,” I just wonder whether we’re fighting a losing battle. I’ve done it for so long I’m starting to doubt myself. I want a view of scripture that makes practical sense. Maybe that’s wrong. I dunno.

Tom