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One Love
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   Posted 1/19/2006 11:32 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Thanks, Tom. From that Jesus Creed page...

The second context for homosexuality pertains to sexuality in general. Here is a huge issue for contemporary Westerners. Sex is primarily seen as an act for pleasure. But in the Bible there is an inextricable connection between (1) marriage, (2) sex, (3) childbearing, (4) childrearing, and (5) the community of faith. The instant sex is separated from marriage and childbearing/rearing in the context of a community of faith, sex becomes not a covenantal responsibility but exclusively a sensual pleasure. To the degree Christians permit such a separation of sex from marriage and children in the community of faith, they have lost all right to speak about any kind of sexual immorality.

In other words there are levels of responsibility inherent to sex: personal, spousal, familial, and communal. It is all tied together. To invade the Bible for laws and to rip covenant behaviors, covenant sexual behaviors, from these connected dimensions of responsibilities is to miss what is saying.

This context raises the bar: if sex is about marriage and childbearing and childrearing (no one wants to say exclusively for childbearing), then adultery and divorce also find their proper context. Adultery and divorce are problematic because they separate sex from marriage and they separate childrearing from marriage.

The context for what the Bible says about homosexuality is right here: until we embrace sex as something for marriage designed by God for childbearing and childrearing, which is accompanied by pleasure but not designed solely for pleasure, there is simply no rationale for a traditional Christian belief.



Hmmm...I suppose that's been my problem and what I've been trying to talk about. This is partly why I've been trying to have that convo with POW on the other thread.

It seems to me that A LOT of stuff is placed on the idea of the divine authority set by God for male/female relationships, not least of which is marriage. But ALL of this is, Christianly speaking, fundamentally based upon the idea of the Creation storie(s)! All the "be fruitful and multiply", Jesus' teaching/approval of the whole "one flesh" idea from Genesis, all that.

Being honest, this has the SAME PROBLEM to me as Doc's restoration view of Creation. The only way it makes any sense is if the Creation story ACTUALLY HAPPENED the way it said it did...at least in significant ways. Think about it. Sexual reproduction and child rearing was among Homo Erectus WAAAAY before Homo sapiens sapiens came on the scene! As did having mates. So, how did the idea of childbearing, childrearing, and sex as showing God's triune glory BEGIN with Adam and Eve...especially when people want to say that Adam and Eve were the first MODERN human beings? Did God evolve sex too?? Did the newly evolved Homo sapiens sapiens have a mystically given understanding about his woman being "flesh of his flesh"??

It seems to me that the logic of many male/female relationship teachings in the New Testament (including Jesus's) are predicated on belief in a LITERAL Adam/Eve story. Does this not cause any issues at all?
 
Just asking questions.

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One Love
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   Posted 1/19/2006 11:38 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oops. I said the "e" word.

Er...um...I mean...ah...progressive creationism!

Yeah...that's what I meant...yeah...

right...


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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/19/2006 12:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Meph Man said...
It seems to me that the logic of many male/female relationship teachings in the New Testament (including Jesus's) are predicated on belief in a LITERAL Adam/Eve story. Does this not cause any issues at all?
But not everyone does.  I think this was Starky baby's point.  You don't have to have to have historical accuracy to make a theological point.  For example, one could say the Creation narrative is TOTALLY mythical and still maintain that it teaches certain theological truths about marriage could they not?


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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One Love
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   Posted 1/19/2006 1:15 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Brandon:
But not everyone does. I think this was Starky baby's point. You don't have to have to have historical accuracy to make a theological point. For example, one could say the Creation narrative is TOTALLY mythical and still maintain that it teaches certain theological truths about marriage could they not?

Ok. Let's try it out with teachings about male/female relationships.

Question:
WHAT grounds that arguments on which the teachings are based? The author of 1 Timothy 2. Jesus in talking about Marriage. Paul in Romans and 1 Corinthians

If we assume that God did not ACTUALLY form woman from the rib of a man, after man couldn't find a suitable helper for him (after he named ALL the animals, mind you)...on what basis does Jesus' teaching stand. The force of his argument is in the historicity of the event. Look at the Matthew 19 passage. If the whole thing were considered to be myth (here used as a NON-HISTORICAL story used to tell a truth), WHEREIN would the power of his argument lie? The force of the argument is in God's BRINGING EVE TO ADAM and Adam's interpretation of that event. That grounds Jesus' next statement where he quotes Gen. 2. Jesus is basically saying: If God brings man and woman together...and has been doing that from the beginning (very important word! WHAT beginning? Hmmm)...who are humans to try and tear that apart? It's God's bringing Eve to Adam to be a helper that forms the precedent for the idea that God unites man and women in marriage. Think about it. Anyone who agreed with the premise (that God really did BRING Eve to Adam and put them together) could not dodge the logical force of this argument. Take away the historical occurance...and the force leaves.

Next. If Adam really WASN'T created before Eve, then on what basis does the argument of 1 Timothy 2:13 stand? This is just plain blatent. The author not only talks about the order of creation, but also the fact that EVE was the one who was beguiled by the Serpent, not Adam. Using this kind of particularity, especially with the argument he's trying to level, would be utterly FRUITLESS if was the common understanding of his audience that the whole thing was a myth.

Nope. It doesn't work.

There's only SO MUCH one can re-mythologize things here. In order to keep things consistent, SOMETHING has to be historically based. And it's the proposed historically based aspects that get problematic.

Post Edited (MephEternal) : 1/19/2006 12:21:51 PM (GMT-6)

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Starkman
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   Posted 1/19/2006 3:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Meph: Being honest, this has the SAME PROBLEM to me as Doc's restoration view of Creation. The only way it makes any sense is if the Creation story ACTUALLY HAPPENED the way it said it did...at least in significant ways.

Starkman: I think, Meph, the theology behind the account of the Couple is the inspired matter. How it all happened...well, there obvioulsy had to be something that went wrong with the human race, but that's beside the point. The issue is that the God-given and God-inspired (theological) point is that woman was made for man, etc. We don't have to prove the details of Creation or the Fall to know what the point of the account is telling us.

Starkman


My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?"  Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/19/2006 7:51 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Meph, months back you posted some stuff about intimacy. Do you remember where that was at? And could we repost it here for comparison to the traditional approach? I think that would be a helpful basis for discussion on the issue.


 

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 1/19/2006 10:34 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
That was probably here jefscott
 


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/20/2006 7:45 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
For some reason, Brandon, that thread doesn't quite ring the bell that I'm "hearing" in my mind. But I think it'll work for the purpose of comparison. Thanks.


 

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One Love
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   Posted 1/20/2006 6:49 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Starkman:
I think, Meph, the theology behind the account of the Couple is the inspired matter. How it all happened...well, there obvioulsy had to be something that went wrong with the human race, but that's beside the point. The issue is that the God-given and God-inspired (theological) point is that woman was made for man, etc. We don't have to prove the details of Creation or the Fall to know what the point of the account is telling us.

Why should we say it was a bonifide infallible theological perspective from God...and not just a human ideological perspective of the composers of the idea? What makes THIS POINT to be divinely inspired...especially if one says that the historical actions didn't happen?

This just doesn't make sense to me, Stark.


The newest mantra:
God graciously FINDS us meaningful when God doesn't need to do it and we, in ourselves, can't do it.
 
"Hmm.  Why not?  What the hell.  Let's try it."
                                            --God
 

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Starkman
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   Posted 1/21/2006 4:40 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
MEPH: Why should we say it was a bonifide infallible theological perspective from God...and not just a human ideological perspective of the composers of the idea? What makes THIS POINT to be divinely inspired...especially if one says that the historical actions didn't happen?

This just doesn't make sense to me, Stark.

STARMAN:

Because all scripture is inspired by God. How God inspired it (using story, myth, real history) is neither here nor there. But we are told, in essence, that the point is inspired. There is nothing wrong with God working within the framework of, say, ANE by using the concept of story and all that kind of stuff in order to communicate His point. That today we are thousands of years removed from that manner of communicating with each other doesn't mean the inspiration (i.e., the point) isn't inspired. If ultimately the point is not inspirired by God, than all the other stuff is meaningless along with the point.

I guess it's like this. God says, "I'm going to tell you all a story. Some of it is fact, other parts are not. The point, however, is what I'm after." That makes the point inspired.

Starkman


My teacher used to say that whenever he read Scripture, he would always ask the question, "What does this have to say about the character of God?"  Working off his thinking, as I read Scripture, I have come to ask, "What does this have to say about the heart and passion of God's desire for relationship for us?

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Tom
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   Posted 1/21/2006 6:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Starkman: Because all scripture is inspired by God.

Tom: I'm not sure Mephi thinks this is true, since it's a claim made by a biblical author who wrote inaccurately on both historical and theological matters. So there's no ground upon which Mephi can agree that the entire Bible is "inspired" or even what inspired means, or if he knew what it meant just HOW to differentiate the inspired from the uninspired.
It seems clear to me what PAUL thought inspiration meant, since he spells it out in 2Tim.

Starkman: If ultimately the point is not inspirired by God, than all the other stuff is meaningless along with the point.

Tom: Mephi's point exactly, which is why he's struggling to articulate HOW the Bible is to be trusted by the community as a trustworthy guide.

Tom


 

Post Edited (TGB) : 1/21/2006 5:34:04 PM (GMT-6)

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Humphrey Bogart
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   Posted 1/23/2006 3:47 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
By way of explanation, in case this post seems out of the blue, someone asked me via private message to comment more on the following sentence I had in a previous post:

HB said...
I think that the theistic explanation for the existence of evil is less likely than the explanation provided by the theory of cosmic dualism. BUT cosmic dualism loses out on many other criteria. So overall theism is more likely.


Alright. First of all, terminology. The unqualified use of the term "dualism" is extremely confusing, because therre are at least ten different forms of dualism that have been identified, including ethical dualism, eschatological dualism, spatial dualism, anthropological dualism, cosmic dualism, and so forth. Anyway, "cosmic dualism" means the theory that there are two equal but opposite gods or forces (a "good God" and a "bad God" ). The classic example is the religion of Zoroastrianism, in which everything that exists is explained in terms of a cosmic battle between the good deity (Ahura Mazda) and the evil deity (Angra Mainyu), which would end not with the elimination and conquest of evil (as in Christianity) but in their permanent separation.

Now the problem of evil concerns why there is evil in the world. It seems obvious that there is also some good in the world, not everything is completely bleak. Cosmic dualism has, in my opinion, a very good explanation for the present state of affairs. There is both good and evil in the world, because the good and evil deities are both active, and neither can overpower the other. They are in a struggle. This accounts for why there is both good and evil co-existent.

Theism would say that God allows evil for some reason (e.g. so that his creatures can have free-will). That is also a good explanation, but to me, and this is only my own opinion obviously, given our human experience of evil in the world, it still seems less reasonable than the cosmic dualist explanation.

However (before I am stoned), theism is much better as an explanation in other ways. For example, if there have always been two gods in conflict, there must have been some pre-existent theatre in which these gods do battle and which governs the rules of conflict - sort of a stage on which the action takes place. Neither the good nor the evil god could have created it, which leaves it having to be uncaused. But theism does not have this problem (at least, not as severely). And on many other things, theism is better. So although cosmic dualism does well on one criterion, it fails on other criteria. But theism does the best overall.
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Sahid
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   Posted 1/23/2006 1:18 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We don't need to believe everything we read.  Even if a lot of good people tell us to.  As I understand it there are four factors that went into determining what should be included in the New Testament "canon:" apostolic connection, universal acceptance, liturgical use, and consistence.  It turns out, however, that much of the New Testament cannot be shown to have apostolic connection.  If the mainstream church wanted to claim universal acceptance of certain books they had to first exclude many people who concidered themselves Christian.  Liturgical use, as well, was really a matter of excluding those congregations that didn't use the books that the majority wanted.  Finally, those who claim that the content of the New Testament is internally consistent are merely fooling themselves.
 
If "canon" is a rule or standard of measurement, then we should not ascribe canonical status to the New Testament.  But we do need something on which to base our beliefs and actions.  Ironically, the New Testament, which Christians usually treat as canon, points outside itself when describing what is authoritative.
 
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
 
With care and with prayer we should study the scriptures and try to best understand who Jesus actually was and what he actually did.  For example, the New Testament is consistent in teaching that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.  It also teaches that there is a God who is powerful enough to pull off that kind of thing.  Given the zeal in the face of persecution with which his disciples preached this message, I believe it.  However, there are other places in which the New Testament (even between the gospels) is inconsistent.  In those cases at least one account is incorrect.  We can prayerfully make decisions about what we believe in those circumstances.
 
The long and short of it is: Jesus is Lord.  Not the Bible.  Jesus is the standard/authority/rule/canon by which we measure all other things.  On any issue the Christian must first start with the person of Jesus (as best we can understand him given our flawed Bible) and then work from there.  The Bible will often be helpful in this process by pointing out answers tried in the past.  But sometimes it will be wrong.  Jesus is the inerrant word of God.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 1/23/2006 2:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Sahid said...
 
If "canon" is a rule or standard of measurement, then we should not ascribe canonical status to the New Testament.  But we do need something on which to base our beliefs and actions.  Ironically, the New Testament, which Christians usually treat as canon, points outside itself when describing what is authoritative.
about 1700 or so the expression Canon got EQUATED with scripture. Before that canon DID mean the line-rule-truth, and it was the ADJECTIVE used to describe scripture, NT when it was "canonized" and OT before.
 
Other things were "canon" too -- including "canonical councils." Etc.
 
And the OT was not "Canon" (noun) either, it was "canon" (adjective).
 
BUT, the proof is in that Which Christ said he'd send and in what he said he'd build -- the Spirit and the Church.


 
(o)

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Sahid
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   Posted 1/23/2006 4:08 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
POW:  BUT, the proof is in that Which Christ said he'd send and in what he said he'd build -- the Spirit and the Church.
 
Zach:  Yes, but we must test the spirits to see if they are really the spirit of Christ.  That which we test by is what is ultimately authoritative.  The Church is also not beyond correction.  I don't think I need to give examples.  The Church and those spirits that would claim to be of Christ must be measured by the standard of Jesus.  If we want to know the reliability of anything (the Bible, Church councils, and creeds included), they must be measured against Jesus.  In my opinion, the Bible, councils, and creeds not only have the possibility of error; they actually are in error at significant points.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/23/2006 5:31 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zach: It turns out, however, that much of the New Testament cannot be shown to have apostolic connection.

Jeff: Which NT books CAN be shown to have an apostolic "connection" and why would such a connection constitute a definitive criteria?
 
Zach: Ironically, the New Testament, which Christians usually treat as canon, points outside itself when describing what is authoritative.
 
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."
 
Jeff: Far be it from me to rule out private revelation, but the passage you quoted doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. It seems to PROVIDE the very test that was to be used. Presumably, if the prophet passed the test, he/she was to be accepted. Or at least that seems like one face-value way to take that passage.


 

Post Edited (jefscott) : 1/23/2006 5:33:23 PM (GMT-6)

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Sahid
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   Posted 1/23/2006 6:56 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Jeff: Which NT books CAN be shown to have an apostolic "connection" and why would such a connection constitute a definitive criteria?

Zach: I don't think it is a definitive criteria, but it is one of the biggest that has been used by those who want to accept the NT as canonical.

Jeff: Far be it from me to rule out private revelation, but the passage you quoted doesn't seem to have anything to do with it. It seems to PROVIDE the very test that was to be used. Presumably, if the prophet passed the test, he/she was to be accepted. Or at least that seems like one face-value way to take that passage.

Zach: I agree. I think we actually agree here. I don't take it to be talking about direct or private revelation. I'd just say that the criteria can and should be used not just on prophets, but on written documents and beliefs as well.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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Similitude
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   Posted 1/23/2006 10:21 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Zach: I agree. I think we actually agree here.

Jeff: Even where we disagree on principles, I bet we end up being very close practically. But whereas we will be very similar in how we live out our beliefs, I just feel way less fully persuaded about the erroneousness of scripture than others do. Even the argument brought up by Heather concerning the 1 Cor. passage (that this thread was originally about) seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Zach: I don't take it to be talking about direct or private revelation. I'd just say that the criteria can and should be used not just on prophets, but on written documents and beliefs as well.

Jeff: Perhaps. But I can't think of one NT book that criteria would rule out.


 

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Sahid
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   Posted 1/24/2006 2:46 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Second Timothy: Women will be saved through childbearing.

Mark: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I wouldn't say the letter should not be read or that all in it is bad. It should just be read critically.


Watch me fly. Freedom like wings and I will use them. Freedom like wings and I will spread them wide. - Stavesacre

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 2/14/2006 2:27 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

Just want to deal with this again.

 

Tom said...

 

2) Mephi, you've always said the default approach is "Somethings's true unless we have good reasons to doubt otherwise." But you abandoned this default assumption with Erickson. Now we have to prove objectively the veracity of every individual claim? I just don't see why this should be the case. Erickson's logic is just bad logic. It doesn't follow from the fact that a person is wrong on occasion that we can only trust his veracity on ANY occasion by independently verifying his claim. This logic would also suggest that since a person is right on occasion we ought only to doubt his veracity on any occasion by indepently verifying the counter-claim. If somebody is a pathalogical liar, or generally untruthful, then we've got reason to begin with doubting him. But if a person is a generally accurate person, morally commited to truth and honesty, and who has suffered for the truth of his claims, then I'd say we have very good reasons to trust him and should only doubt when we have very good independent reasons to do so.

Not sure where to go with this now, except to say that Erickson's reasoning doesn't really solve anything

and
 
Meph Man said...

Second, Erickson is NOT saying what you are saying he's saying. He's talking about CERTAINTY of the truth of biblical teachings. If we introduce the idea that the Bible can genuinely be wrong on something that is taught by a biblical author, then we cannot be CERTAIN of the verity of any individual biblical teaching JUST because it's a biblical teaching in divinely inspired literature. We'd have to look at other factors to garner reliability (not certainty), like demonstrated character...just like you are doing. And I HOPE that you see that THAT doesn't help that much. Well intentioned, morally-upstanding people of conviction can be VERY wrong. Surely, you know this, Tom.

I know there isn’t much happening here AGAIN, but I wanted to look at this.  I kinda have some issues with this.  Let’s look at the New Testament for a second.  It isn’t all that clear whether ANY of Gospels was written by eye witnesses.  That is, those who PERSONALLY WITNESSED Jesus life, ministry, death and resurrection.  However, that is not to say that those who were not eyewitnesses did not pass on eye witness material that THEY received.  And if we look at the fact that it is becoming more fully accepted that some of these stories developed from the 20’s--30’s to 60’s—70’s in which there was a full recasting of the material that it may speak to the needs of the church then we really would not be able to extract from this material TESTIMONY to the Jesus who could have been seen and heard in the 20’s—30’s.

 

Well, I think the historical-critical approach has made us aware that we should not UNQUESTIONINGLY ACCEPT what is claimed (to have been seen or heard) ESPECIALLY on miraculous claims.  There COULD BE fraud.  I mean there are some real problems with this.  Like, if we can accept fraud in the Bible, then that might encourage deliberate fraud on what are believed to be justifiable grounds.  So, we cannot treat people who claim to be witnesses as having unquestionable authority simply because they make the claim.

 

However, to go by the way of skepticism is to go to the other extreme.  People weren’t gullible back then and they were aware of the difference between fact and fiction and to establish whether something happened or not when it came to eyewitness testimony.

 

Sometimes, “history” was written such that there was concern with only that which was relevant.  But this does not mean that they did NOT preserve NOTHING or invented material from scratch.  Churches had reason to preserve factual witness to Jesus.  This, however is no reason to abandon investigating the stories, as if we have a guarantee of inerrancy of their witness.  The possibility of embellishment should be of concern to us.  But this should make us stop and consider that there is good grounds for believing these witnesses.  As one scholar says, the witnesses should be treated more as friends to trust than as enemies whom we suspect and torture.

 

When they testify to events that cannot be satisfactorily explained by normal natural causes or human causation, examining the witness does become more complicated.  And so, not every story we need to treat as “historical” in the sense that it actually happened.  That we need to take it as a witness to a literal historical event.  But those stories that deal with Jesus resurrection and miracles should be treated differently than those events such as floating axheads.  The reason for this is because of their place within the wider story of God’s action (i.e. Barth).  It WOULD matter that Jesus was NOT MERELY resuscitated as opposed to his being resurrected.  THIS historical event is of greater significance than the significance of your next door neighbor driving a nail through a four by four—to refer to Ogden.  This event by it’s very nature does not conform to the rules of historiography.

 

So what we have is that those “normal rules of historiography” should be seen within the broader context of one’s “philosophy of history.”  It makes a difference if God is included in the that.

 

The resurrection did not take place in isolation but MAKES SENSE in light of other beliefs.  Though this does mean that it actually happened, it does mean that it does alter the way in which we come to a judgment on WHETHER it happened.

 

That we NEED the witnesses’ testimony to BE TRUE MEANS that it would be possible to INTENTIONALLY fudge the evidence (which is a good reason to seriously consider our critics (contra Darby).  On the other hand, we are not under any obligation to believe the witness simply because of our predilections for doing so.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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