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One Love
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   Posted 4/29/2007 4:38 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I'm not understanding your problem.
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One Love
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   Posted 4/29/2007 6:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
I am free, therefore I will to serve.
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One Love
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   Posted 4/29/2007 6:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

In your relationships with one another, have the same attitude of mind Christ Jesus had:

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a human being,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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Tom
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   Posted 4/29/2007 6:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.

I’m not sure, Brandon, what it means to say God IS his relations but we HAVE our relations. But it sounds cool!

 

D, I can’t agree to your, “we are to BECOME by grace what God is by nature (God's essential existence),” since there is much that God is by nature that we cannot possibly become, like “necessary” for starters, like the divine ‘ousia’ as well. We can’t become THAT. We can become compatibilistically loving, yeah, and God is that, but we can’t become all that God is by nature. We don’t become divine. I’m not at all going to say that.

 

There’s a kind of identity statement that you use which is too easily misconstrued, like:

 

Human personhood = God, or

Human personhood = divine personhood

 

Human personhood is that which comes into its own ‘ousia’, an ‘ousia’ that is not the divine ousia. Now, that alone should warn us.

 

When I see the word “God” or even “divinity” I INclude the divine ‘essence’ or ‘ousia’, so I won’t say we are divine. You hold onto saying we're divine because you say we just ARE the energies of God and the energies of God, though NOT the divine ousia, are divine! I'm suspcious of this move. But still, I'd avoid saying we're divine because I think our ouisa is not reducible to the divine energies (the blocks, tiles, and wood that compose the house). We "come into being," but the divine energies do not come into being. So again, we should be warned. What possible reason could you have for saying we are divine? It's like walking through a house and refusing to call it "house," and instead calling it bricks and wood. People are likely to say, "No, far more than bricks and wood." I think you communicate less.

 

I’m not at all sure I even understand what the divine energies are, so perhaps I would have been better not to use the term.

 

Tell me this…

 

(1) Are divine energies “subject” or “predicate”? A subject is some ‘ousia’, some essential thing or entity. Predicates are not. Subjects are those entities to which we predicate things. Predicates are those attributes we ascribe to subjects.

 

So, are the energies of God subjects or predicates? If subjects, are they personal subjects? If personal subjects, then… do you see the problem? Father, Son, and Spirit are the “personal subjects” (I think) that are the one God. Whatever the divine energies are, are the bits and pieces of God? Are they divine atoms? Sentient droplets of something?

 

I’m not sure I’ve ever understood the essence/energies distinction of the GrOrth.

 

I understand their favorite analogy—the Sun and its energies. The Sun is a discrete object with location. Its energies are the photons and quantum particles and nutrinos that the Sun throws off. But each particle of light is its own discrete SUBJECT of which we predicate things. But what would it mean for God to be necessarily throwing off divine subjects?

 

Why do we need this distinction between the essence and energies anyway?

 

(2) How many ousias (of a personal-sentient nature) are there in the universe? One? Or a multiplicity? If a multiplicity, then we cannot “be” divine, for “we” are an ousia other than the divine ousia. It’s that simple. Now, if you want to sneak “divinity” into our ousia by virtue of the divine energies out of which we emerge, energies which are divine on the one hand but are not the divine ousia on the other, then I’d only respond by saying that I feel like I’m doing theology in Las Vegas at a card-sharks table, some master slight of hand.

 

Tom


 

Post Edited (MANY) : 4/29/2007 6:28:11 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/29/2007 6:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Man...whatever. :-)

Seriously.

Just love people, y'all.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 4/29/2007 8:36 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Tom, I'm also cautious, especially until I know EXACTLY what someone means.

That is why I feel better reading a GrOrth or a Patristic than a contemporary theologian. "Within the Tradition" means a lot to me for that reason.

Also, when a Patristic says "become by grace what God is by nature" is take the SIMPLE route: I apply John 3:16. Simply, I can have eternal life by grace like God has life by nature. Just as long as the phrase works for THAT I'm happy. Its literary, and useful.

I'm sure there are things that could be plugged in that would cause a spitzen-sparken short-out. Analogies break down, and so do poetic lines. But for THE reason they are composed then can work for THAT.

The literary phrase "...by grace...by nature..." points us to the DIRECTIONALITY and the CONNECTION between God and us. That's the main point. Its from God to us, it works, and it does the job. Hallelujah!


(o)

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One Love
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   Posted 4/30/2007 3:35 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
There is only one way to becoming more perfect: Loving one's enemies.

It's the only way.

Because our deepest enemy is ourselves.

The heart is deceitful above all things.

We make ourselves enemies of God, and act like it's liberation from a tyrant.

We separate ourselves from God, and act like it's freedom from oppressive limitation.

If we don't stop judging ourselves, we will never stop judging anyone else.
 
If we don't see the GLORY in ourselves (being Contingent Expressions of the One True God), we will never find enough LIFE in that glory of our Creator to stop the crazy judgement stuff we do.
 
We will follow our darkened MINDS into ILLUSION about reality...and be effectively "dead" to our true SPIRITUAL nature.
 
Unconditionally loving your enemies creates the environment for darkened minds to be PURIFIED.
 
Because it often shows you the darkness in your OWN SOUL.

We must...we absolutely MUST...love our enemies.

Always.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 4/30/2007 3:39:00 AM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 7:36 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Selah, where the hell YOU at?  biggrin
 
You're a counselor.  It seems that some think that I'm associating humanity too closely with God.
 
Am I officially certifiable yet? icon_brows2
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Tom
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   Posted 5/1/2007 9:09 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Totally certifiable!

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 9:24 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Question from the Crazy:

If we open ourselves up to it, can we be totally possessed by the Spirit of Jesus? The mind being COMPLETELY CONTROLLED by the Spirit of Jesus? Again, there are TWO WILLS involved. A person WILLS to become NOTHING and be completely submissive, obedient, and centered on Christ's Spirit.  If a person's will actually IS to be possessed by Christ's Spirit, will God bless that person with that?  I mean, God gives people the desires of their hearts, right? Ok.  What if a person's ONE DESIRE for themselves is to be totally possessed by the Holy Spirit of Christ?  Can God grant this desire?

I don't see how this can't be the case. We have accounts of demonic possession. Why not divine possession?
 
 
Here's another question:
IF  (only IF, now) it is possible to be completely possessed by the Spirit of Jesus such that Jesus actually manifests his dispositional reality in a person at all times in all ways, is there any reason that a Christian should NOT seek this end?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 12:55:33 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 9:29 AM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God's name don't torture me!" For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.



----------------------

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind controlled by the sinful nature is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. The sinful mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but are in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 12:26 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Well, Many?
 
ANYONE else can answer this question too, of course! I'd love to hear lots on this...
 
biggrin


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 12:48:22 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 1:06 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Just the right sermon...

4/29/2007 – A Gracious Mess, Annie Perdue-Olson

Judgment of other people is a vicious cycle that destroys human relationships. Only God has the wisdom, power and ability to be an accurate judge of a person's life and character. Instead of creating self-centered little kingdoms for ourselves, we can follow the path of Jesus by living in perfect love.

www.whchurch.org/content/page_173.htm


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 1:12 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
The website won't work right...so...

The Glory of Saints by
SRI SWAMI SIVANANDA
-----------------------

A saint is a god on earth. To him, the whole world is mere straw. To him, gold and stone are alike. To him, pleasure and pain are the same.

A saint lives in God. He has realized God. He knows God. He has become God. He speaks of God. He shows the way to God. He is God-intoxicated. He is God Himself. He is one with God.

Saints are God's agents on earth. God reveals Himself in a saint in His full glory, infinite power, wisdom and bliss.

The saints constitute a ladder for the pilgrims to the shrine of God. Wherever saints and sages stay even for a half-second, then and there are sacred places like Varnasi, Prayag and Brindavan.

A saint is a blessing on earth. Saints are the living symbols of religion and are the true benefactors of humanity. Throughout history, saints have played a great part in preserving spiritual values in the world.

A saint is a spiritual washerman. He applies the soap of devotion and knowledge, and removes the spots of sin in worldly people. In his presence, man becomes holy.

The moment the mind thinks of a sage, immediately all evil desires, base passions, are brushed aside. Meditation on the lives of saints is equal to holy company. Study of their teachings is equal to holy company.

To think of saints, to live in their company, to have good fortune of receiving their blessings, is to draw forth upon yourself a shower of purity, inspiration and divine consciousness.

THE NATURE OF A SAINT

A saint is free from I-ness and mine-ness. He is free from lust, anger, and greed. He loves all beings as his own Self. He is endowed with dispassion and mercy. He speaks the truth and serves all. He ever meditates on the Lord. He does not speak ill of others. He has equal vision. He sees Devi or Mother in all women. He is ever joyful and peaceful. He sings the glory of the Lord. He has divine knowledge. He is fearless and generous. He never begs, but gives. He is majestic and lordly. Such a one is rare in the whole world. He is not easily found. He is not born everywhere.

Love is the very breath of a saint. Mercy is his very nature. His heart overflows with compassion. He does not look to the faults of others. He returns good for evil and blesses those who curse him.

The heart of a sage is a flame of love and his whole being thirsts for the uplift of suffering humanity. He forgets himself utterly and lives but for the sake of others.

A saint sees the whole world as the projection of his own soul. A sage sees unity in diversity. He becomes one with the whole world.

A sage is a youth amongst the youth, aged amongst the old, brave amongst the brave, a child amongst children. He feels the pain and suffering among sufferers.

THE LIFE OF A SAINT

The life of a saint is plain, simple, and attractive. It is full of grace. It is methodical. A saint is ever of good cheer. He knows no ill of life. To him, life is joy. He experiences no trial of misery. He is fearless. No monarch has sway over him.

The life of a saint is always a life of quiet, of indrawn stillness, of solitude and aloofness. He is untouched by the changes of the world. No external happening can shake him off his balance. He is centred in his own Atman or Absolute Consciousness.

A sage is desireless and so he is ever happy. A king possesses everything and so he is happy. But, the happiness of a sage is infinite, because he lives in his own Atman, the ocean of Brahmic Bliss. A king is full of fears and worries. He is afraid that his enemies will conquer him one day and so he is restless and miserable.

The happiness of a liberated sage is not sensual pleasure. It is Atmic Self-bliss. He enjoys the whole world simultaneously as the Self of all objects. His happiness is not in time. It is transcendental bliss.

A sage alone is really wealthy. Multi-millionaires with cravings and desires are beggars. A saint is superior to an emperor, to Indra, the Lord of heaven.

A sage has awakened from the dream of life. He enjoys eternal bliss. To a sage of illumination, the entire world surrenders.

A SAGE NEED NOT BE A GENIUS

The sage moves among men, but he is unseen by all men; he is taken by them as an ordinary man.

Only a sage can know a sage. He will sometimes appear like a Sarvajna, an all knower. He will sometimes appear like an Ajnani, an ignorant man. He knows when to act like a Brahma-nishtha and when to behave like a fool. Do not judge him. If you approach him with the proper Bhava, with faith, devotion and spiritual thirst, he will impart the highest knowledge to you. If you approach him with a bad motive, he will behave like a madman and you will be deceived. Great will be your loss then.

A Brahma-jnani or liberated sage need not be a genius. He need not be an eloquent speaker, orator, lecturer or professor. But, he is calm, serene, and tranquil. He is taciturn and silent. His silence is superior eloquence. He has equanimity and balanced mind. He has equal vision. He has Samata and Sama-drishti. He is a Mouni, Maha Mouni, and Muni. He has divine wisdom and intuitive knowledge. In his presence, all doubts are cleared.

SAINTS HAVE NO CASTE

There is no caste among saints and sages. A sage is like a lion out of the cage, free from shackles of caste, creed, profession, tradition and scripture. Do not look to the caste of saints and sages. You will not be benefited. You cannot imbibe their virtues. In higher religion, there is neither caste nor creed. Cobblers, weavers, and untouchables had become the best saints.

There is no real difference between a Christian mystic and a Hindu saint. Their sayings never clash. The messages of the saints are essentially the same. They have always been a call to men to discover the Wisdom of the Self or Atman.

SAGES DIFFER IN THEIR CONDUCT

Knowledge is the same in all sages, but their conduct is different. Sri Vasishtha was a Karma-kandi; he did Havans and sacrifices. Raja Janaka was a Bhogi; he ruled his dominion; he enjoyed regal pleasures. Sri Dattatreya was a wanderer; he was an Avadhuta, a naked Fakir. Kakabhusundhi was a Yogi. Some even marry.

Sages like Dattatreya and Jadabharata roam about happily. They have neither rooms nor clothing. All dualities have become extinct. They cannot work for the well-being of the world like Raja Janaka and Sri Sankara. But, their mere presence elevates people.

The other type of sage is the benevolent sage - like Raja Janaka and Sri Sankara - who works for the solidarity of the world. He has compassion for all. He writes books, conducts classes, establishes Mutts or Ashrams. You may ask: "Which of the two kinds is superior ?". The answer is: "Both are on the same level".

A SAGE IS NOT SELFISH

Ignorant people say, "A sage is attempting for his own Self-realization. He is extremely selfish. He is of no use to society". This is a serious mistake. A sage is the most benevolent superman. He is extremely kind and compassionate. He elevates at once all persons who come in contact with him. Further, he does Sakti-sanchar through his Divya-Drishti. He finds out the deserving aspirants and raises them up through Sankalpa Sakti, even while remaining in a cave or Kutir in the distant Himalayas.

A Jnani is not a selfish man as worldly men think. His spiritual vibrations purify the world. His very life is exemplary and elevating. He gives hope and encouragement to others to tread the spiritual path. He is the only real lover of mankind. He feels the presence of God in everyone. He loves his neighbour as himself. A Jnani only does real selfless service as he feels the presence of God in all beings. He is the real altruist and humanitarian.

DO NOT JUDGE A SAINT

You cannot apply the worldly yardstick to measure the greatness of the saints. Do not superimpose defects on them on account of your evil eye. You cannot judge their merits.

Brahma-nishtha are like fire. They can consume anything. Their very touch purifies everything. They are beyond good and bad; they are themselves the supreme good. Do not imitate their actions. Their actions are strange and mysterious. They are beyond your intellect. If you commit theft and say, "Did not Krishna steal butter ?", you will be hopelessly ruined. Krishna lifted up the Govardhana Hill with His little finger. Can you lift even a big stone with all your strength ? Follow the Upadesa of saints and Mahapurushas; you will attain Brahma-Jnana here and now.

HOW TO BENEFIT BY THE COMPANY OF SAINTS

To benefit from the company of saints, you have to prepare yourself first. Do not go with any preconceived notion or prejudice. Go with an open, receptive mind. Go without expectations. Approach them humbly and respectfully. Assimilate what appeals to you. If some of their teachings do not appeal to you, do not form a hasty opinion. If you do not like them, you need not take them to heart. What may be suitable to another may not be suitable to you. Yet, with regard to broad fundamentals, there can be no difference of opinion.

When you go before a sage, do not ask him questions out of mere inquisitiveness. Sit in his presence humbly. Observe him. Listen to him without prejudice. Ask him only such questions about which you really need clarifications. Ask him only pertinent questions. Do not draw him into politics or public bickering.

Meditate in the presence of a sage. You will get inner light which will clear your doubts.

SAINTS AS ADVISERS

The very company of sages and saints has a tremendous transforming effect on the lives of true seekers. It lifts them up to heights of sublimity, purity and spirituality. It does not fail to affect even the rank materialists.

Every school, every college, every boarding house, every jail, every institution, every house should have a saint for the guidance of its members.

Saints and sages only can become real advisers to the kings, because they are selfless and possess the highest wisdom. They only can improve the morality of the masses. They only can show the way to attain eternal bliss and immortality. Shivaji had Swami Ramdas as his adviser. King Dasaratha had Maharishi Vasishtha as his adviser.

Saints are in abundance. You do not want them. You do not wish to approach them. You do not wish to serve them. You do not aspire for higher things. You are perfectly satisfied with some broken shells and glass-pieces. There is no thirst or spiritual hunger in you for achieving higher divine knowledge and inner peace.

Spiritual opportunity is a rare privilege. Do not lose such opportunities. Take recourse to the company of sages and saints. One moment of company with the Holy builds a ship to cross this ocean of life.

God is the great purifier. A saint also is a great purifier. God incarnates as saints and sages when their need is felt most.

Study the lives of saints. You are inspired at once. Remember their sayings. You are elevated immediately. Walk in their footsteps. You are freed from pain and sorrow.

Seek the company of sages and evolve. Satsang with sages is unfailing in its results.

---------------------------

Here's another one..."What is Divine Life?"

http://sivanandaonline.org/html/sadhanapages/divinelife/divinelife.shtm

Here's the intro...

To shed the animal in man and to sublimate the human in him into the divine, to express this sublimation in his daily, hourly, life in thought, word and deed - that is truly divine life.

To speak the truth at all costs, to speak sweetly with love, to practise non-violence, celibacy, to behold the Lord in all forms is Divine life.

To be ever in communion with the Lord by annihilating mineness and egoism through faith, devotion and self-surrender is Divine life.

Man, that's Swami's got it ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL wrong...right?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 2:26:07 PM (GMT-5)

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Tom
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   Posted 5/1/2007 1:23 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
And do you, D, agree that there is NO REAL DIFFERENCE between Christian mystics and other non-Christian mystics?

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 1:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
If they end up living the truth that God is love and they unconditionally submit to God and humanity through the power of that love, then there is no ultimately SIGNIFICANT difference.  Their end of living in the Truth will be the same.

You disagree?

As an aside...The "Wisdom of the Self" is, in my mind, may be representative of the reality of the LOGOS/CONSEQUENT HYPOSTASIS/SON.  The "Logos" idea is quite similar to the idea of "Ishvara", in my mind.

Christ IN US, the hope of Glory.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 1:58:22 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 2:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
We are ALL meant to be "hagioi" in the truest sense.
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Tom
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   Posted 5/1/2007 3:05 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
One: If they end up living the truth that God is love and they unconditionally submit to God and humanity through the power of that love, then there is no ultimately SIGNIFICANT difference. Their end of living in the Truth will be the same. You disagree?

Tom: I'm an exclusivist, D. You know that. That means that however mystically wonderful somebody's experience is, there will always remain a dimension of loving relationality that's absent and that is only accessible through perceiving and trusting in Christ. So yes, I'd disagree with the idea that there's no ultimately significant difference between a Christ-centered spirituality and non-Christ-centered spirituality.

Tom


 

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 3:11 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Hey. Do you.

Now can you answer the other question? 
 
Please.
 
Pretty please? biggrin

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 3:15:29 PM (GMT-5)

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 3:29 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Oh, and something else...

If even just post-mortem evangelism is true (NOT eventual universal reconciliation), wouldn't this mean that some non-Christian mystics be ok in the end? Wouldn't living in the truth of "God is love" on earth mean that when they died, they would have NO PROBLEM accepting that the God of Love that they served was really Jesus, who demonstrated perfect love? Wouldn't their lives of believing in a GOD OF PERFECT LOVE end up working in their favor after death?

Come on, now.


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 5/1/2007 5:14 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Any thoughts of mine are probably besides the point. But D's thoughts seem theoretical, to me.
 
Well, besides that, I'd be interested in someone who is a solid Christian who also knows the other view making some observations.
 

Kevin Allen on Finding Christ in a Hindu Ashram

Posted Sunday, April 08, 2007

Play

Steve McMeans interviews his co-host, Kevin Allen, about his experiences as the novice of a Hindu guru, and his journey to Orthodoxy.

http://audio.ancientfaithradio.com/illuminedheart/IH8-KevinAllen_040807.mp3

 


(o)

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BBBCanada
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   Posted 5/1/2007 5:35 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
 
Though I like D's avatar that shows best his viewpoint (light behind the distinctions and distinctive colors) this is a closer view of my avatar the one and many that I've always had in mind.  Though the many tentacles dervive from the one core, and are distinct they are really a part of the octupus like entity and thus are the entity.


Brandon
It is the purpose that makes strong the vow, but vows to every purpose must not hold.--A friend.

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One Love
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   Posted 5/1/2007 6:48 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Um, hello?  Can I get ANY answer to my question, please? 
 
Reposting...
 
-----------------
 
Question from the Crazy:

If we open ourselves up to it, can we be totally possessed by the Spirit of Jesus? The mind being COMPLETELY CONTROLLED by the Spirit of Jesus? Again, there are TWO WILLS involved. A person WILLS to become NOTHING and be completely submissive, obedient, and centered on Christ's Spirit.  If a person's will actually IS to be possessed by Christ's Spirit, will God bless that person with that?  I mean, God gives people the desires of their hearts, right? Ok.  What if a person's ONE DESIRE for themselves is to be totally possessed by the Holy Spirit of Christ?  Can God grant this desire?

I don't see how this can't be the case. We have accounts of demonic possession. Why not divine possession?
 
 
Here's another question:
IF  (only IF, now) it is possible to be completely possessed by the Spirit of Jesus such that Jesus actually manifests his dispositional reality in a person at all times in all ways, is there any reason that a Christian should NOT seek this end?


"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,  that all of them may be One, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.  I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be One as we are One—  I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete Unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

Post Edited (ONE) : 5/1/2007 8:57:02 PM (GMT-5)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 5/1/2007 9:19 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
ONE said...
 
Question from the Crazy:

If we open ourselves up to it, can we be totally possessed by the Spirit of Jesus? The mind being COMPLETELY CONTROLLED by the Spirit of Jesus? Again, there are TWO WILLS involved. A person WILLS to become NOTHING and be completely submissive, obedient, and centered on Christ's Spirit.  If a person's will actually IS to be possessed by Christ's Spirit, will God bless that person with that?  I mean, God gives people the desires of their hearts, right? Ok.  What if a person's ONE DESIRE for themselves is to be totally possessed by the Holy Spirit of Christ?  Can God grant this desire?

I don't see how this can't be the case. We have accounts of demonic possession. Why not divine possession?
No.
 
Not from Scripture, and not from tradition.
 


(o)

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PotOnWheel
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   Posted 5/1/2007 9:20 PM (GMT -6)    Quote This PostAlert An Admin About This Post.
Struggle. Endure. Work.

Follow Scripture.


(o)

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