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BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 8/28/2002 4:22 AM (GMT -6)

OK. I know we addressed this topic somewhat on another thread but I don't think it was the topic of the thread. But here's my questions.

What do you guy's think of the recent sex scandals between priests in the Catholic Church and their victims?

What do you think of the portrayal of the scandal? Is it biased or not? If it is biased, in what way do you think it is? If it isn't, what is your reasoning?

Do you think that the issue is one of celibacy? That is, as the popular reasoning goes, "If only they would let those priests marry, we wouldn't have this problem." In otherwords, what is the source of this problem?

What should the Roman Catholic Church do about these scandals and in particular, the perpetrators.

Have at it. I look forward to your responses.

Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War

writerdad
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 448

Posted 8/28/2002 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

I think there are two issues working here: one the protection of the Catholic church at all costs and, two, the idea that you can only truly serve God if you are celebete (wrong...you know what I mean).
The Catholic church for a long time was only interested in protecting its image, regardless. Second, they promote the idea that to truly follow God and be a minister of the gospel you have to not have sex (I think they have a problem with sex in general, all those men up there, but that is another story). We were, by and large, made to pair up with the opposite sex. To deny this is to ask for trouble.
"If priest would marry there wouldn't be this problem..." perhaps there is some truth to that, in the sense that it might keep a closet molester from abusing a child, but, I think, by and large, it wouldn't matter much. How it effects priests is when one is told this is the true way to serve God, but the desire is still there and with the desire there, the ministry one is called to suffers.
Marriage may solve a tiny amount but not the majority of the problem. Harold

writerdad
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Total Posts : 448

Posted 8/28/2002 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

brandi
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Total Posts : 118

Posted 8/28/2002 10:58 PM (GMT -6)

Brandon

quote:
What do you think of the portrayal of the scandal?

Writerdad

quote:
The Catholic church for a long time was only interested in protecting its image, regardless

What a tragedy it is when any church is more interested in protecting it's image than in defending the victim! It not only gives the victim a message that they are LESS important than an image, but it also gives the world a bad interpretation of the church at large.

Brandon

quote:
Do you think that the issue is one of celibacy?

Writerdad

quote:
We were, by and large, made to pair up with the opposite sex.

I have understood the bible to differ on this. I always understood marriage to be the second best choice...

1 Corinthians 7:32-34 "32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife-- 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please her husband."

~Brandi~

Edited by - brandi on 08/29/2002 04:00:05 AM

writerdad
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Total Posts : 448

Posted 8/29/2002 6:13 AM (GMT -6)

Brandi: I think Paul almost admits that he wishes all would be like him, but adknowledges we are not. Given that Adam was given Eve and Eve Adam and given the nature of sex in our world, I believe it is only being practical to recognize that most people have an attraction to sex and have a need to get married. What is wrong with the Catholic is they stress (mostly to men, but women also) that the only way to truly serve God is without sex and marriage. But who is to tell an individual they cannot serve God in marriage unless it is the Lord himself? Harold

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 8/29/2002 8:18 AM (GMT -6)

Allllright, allllright. Keep it coming folks. I'm reading, taking in your thoughts and will respond, but I would really like to see other responses here. People?

Oh and Harold, you can't post the same msg twice!

Adiaphora, he's cheating the counter by puttin up the same post twice!

Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War

brandi
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Date Joined Jun 2002
Total Posts : 118

Posted 8/30/2002 1:43 AM (GMT -6)

Writerdad

quote:
What is wrong with the Catholic is they stress (mostly to men, but women also) that the only way to truly serve God is without sex and marriage. But who is to tell an individual they cannot serve God in marriage unless it is the Lord himself?

The key word here is "ONLY." I agree that married people CAN and DO serve Christ. I agree that the Catholic church can be a bit demanding about this and IF they are promoting that the only way to serve God is through celibacy then they are a bit deceiving of the Word. This high demand makes it difficult for those who have a passion and a calling to minister and yet to have an intimate relationship. Although they do have men who can be married yet carry out some of the same tasks as the priests but the name of this position within the church escapes me.

I agree with Paul and the Catholic Church in that the desirable way to serve God is through remaining single and celibate. When we get married, and especially if we have a family, life's demands get heavy. Our primary focus needs to be and must be within thus we are limited in how much we can minister outside.

~Brandi~

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 8/31/2002 5:13 AM (GMT -6)

So far, I appreciate your responses and I would like to see some more people participate in this discussion. Anyhoo...let me respond to some of what has already been mentioned here.

First, I want to hear other responses on questions 1, 2, 4 before I say anything. But for Daddy and Brandi (I like that name 'cause that's over half my name

, YOUR NAME ROCKS!!!), I will respond to the issue of celibacy and marriage cause they are both related.

First, Daddy, when you say:

quote:
(I think they have a problem with sex in general, all those men up there, but that is another story).

Actually it isn't another story. It is very much related to the question of celibacy I asked. That is, is the problem one of celibacy? Your response would be "Partly, and here is the reason why...these people/men have a problem with sex." And so I think you should explain why you think this way...why they have a problem with sex if in fact they do. That's a pretty strong statement to make and not back it up, considering what I am about to say.

To start, we need to be clear on what the Catholic Church teaches and not just state our opinions. Hopefully this will guide some of our thinking.

First, in Eastern rite Catholic Churches, married men are regularly ordained. This has been this way from back in the day--the earliest of times. The Western Latin Church on the other hand has generally preferred celibacy and eventually made it the norm. Still, the Western Latin Church occassionally ordains men if they have been Protestant clergy and have sought ordination after entering the Catholic Church.

Second, Daddy said:

quote:
Second, they promote the idea that to truly follow God and be a minister of the gospel you have to not have sex

and

What is wrong with the Catholic is they stress (mostly to men, but women also) that the only way to truly serve God is without sex and marriage.

Now here is where we get into the meat of the issue and it will speak to Brandi's assertion that "marriage was always second best."

Catholics differeniate between changing disciplines in the Church and what they see as the immutable "Sacred Tradition" or "deposit of faith."

Sacred Tradition preserves the doctrines taught by Christ to the Apostles. Customs and disciplines adapt the Sacred Tradition and help to carry it out and apply it, i.e Jesus commanded us to pray (doctrine/Sacred Tradition). Praying the rosary is one way of doing this and so forth.

Now, how does this relate to celibacy?

According to Catholics, Jesus and Paul taught that the gift of celibacy empowered people to serve others better. Priestly celibacy is an application of this teaching. Catholics realize there is no universal and unchanging law that commands priests to be forever celibate. And so, if the Church one day comes to believe that priests should marry, to better serve in their pastoral postion? Then they will have a change of policy. But it is a mistake to not differeniate what is a discipline of the Church and what is "Sacred Tradition."

Another thing to remember is that the Catholic Church celebrates and encourages marriage as a Sacrament. They believe that sex was Jesus' idea and yet He chose to remain celibate. They believe that no one is forbidding them to marry since no one is required to become a priest. So why do Catholic's extend the teaching of Jesus and Paul to the priesthood? The answer is simply that an unmarried man is freer to serve Christ and the Church. Unmarried men do not have to make choices between family activities and church ones. They needn't fear neglecting one or the other.

Another reason Catholics believe in celibacy is more theological in nature. A celibate priesthood guarantees that even in this world, some within the Church will be living witnesses to a future state of life in heaven Matt 22:30. That is, they serve as a sign of the resurrected life to come. It is also a sign that to our sex-saturated society that some can live chaste lives, which I think is sooo cool!

But even this reason is not at the deepest level of theological reasoning. That the priest finds his identity in being a continutation of Christ himself is of the uttmost. While this is true for all Christians, it is particularly true for those who are ordained to the priesthood, according to Catholic theology. That is the priest is ordained to act in the person of Christ and serve the Church in a distinct way. In Mass, he "acts out" Christ by intoning his words, "This is my Body...This is my Blood." In all these ways the priest functions as an icon of Christ.

There is also the "Church as the Bride of Christ" metaphor. That is, that the priest seeks to live out and make visible Christ's husbandly love for his Bride. He is called to be the living image of Jesus Christ, the Spouse of the Church. He is to live out Christ's spousal love toward the Church. So, according to Catholics, a celibate priest is married in a very real way. He is married, as Christ is to the Church and his celibacy reminds the church of this reality.

So, Daddy, the question of celibacy goes much deeper than,

quote:
I think they have a problem with sex in general

Lastly, Brandi said:

quote:
What a tragedy it is when any church is more interested in protecting it's image than in defending the victim! It not only gives the victim a message that they are LESS important than an image, but it also gives the world a bad interpretation of the church at large.

I'm glad you said ANY CHURCH. This is related more to the other questions, 1, 2, 4. But just to touch on it? Statistically, Protestants are guilter than Catholics on this issue of sexual abuse, especially among Pentecostals. I can show the stats on that. What this means is that this has caused me question the media bias on this whole issue which is the reason for my questions.

Also, it should be remembered that Catholics differeniate between the "hierarchy" of the church and the Body of Christ. The blame should squarely rest with the hierarchy than with "The Church."

So, I would like to get your responses on questions 1, 2, 4.

Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War

Edited by - BBBCanada on 08/31/2002 10:20:37 AM

Empiress
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Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 363

Posted 9/2/2002 9:43 AM (GMT -6)

BBBC said:

quote:
What do you think of the portrayal of the scandal? Is it biased or not? If it is biased, in what way do you think it is? If it isn't, what is your reasoning?

Well, I do think it is another case of the media rushing to jump and sensationalize a "hot" topic because it grabs attention at the moment, even though such scandals have always existed. I find it very frustrating that the media portrays these occurrences as though they're "new" or "worse" than before (as they have done with the kidnapping and murder of young girls) because it creates an imbalanced perspective and a mood of fear and a sense of unbridled "outbreak" of some kind.

However, it is clear that these cases do need to be exposed and the RC Church does need to be held accountable, so in that sense I think this coverage and public awareness is necessary to an extent....unfortunately.

quote:
Do you think that the issue is one of celibacy? That is, as the popular reasoning goes, "If only they would let those priests marry, we wouldn't have this problem." In otherwords, what is the source of this problem?

I believe it is a combination of things and the RC Church is not the only one guilty of the following...

1. An unhealthy acceptance of sexuality in the Church. In general many people feel as though sex and sexual feelings are negative and therefore must be hidden. Because healthy sexuality and feelings are repressed, the only outlet becomes unhealthy, hidden expression.

2. Extreme naiveté about sexuality in the Church. The Church has shown itself to be much more naive about sex and sexuality than the rest of the world, acting as though it "couldn't happen here." (The Church as a whole has been the slowest to accept standards of checking for sex offenders for instance.)

3. A lack of sexual education for clergy. I believe the celibate priesthood attracts more men who are deviant sexually because they are told that if they don't feel called to "marriage" than they are called to the priesthood. Many men who don't "feel called to marriage" do not have a priestly vocation, they have other sexual issues/problems going on. Since there no education for the clergy about what is natural and normal sexually, nor are they encouraged to examine, discuss, and explore the sexual side of themselves, many do not even realize that their lack of a "normal" sex drive needs to be dealt with before entering the priesthood.

4. A lack of support and community for the clergy. The RC Church takes these young men who have not been educated or come to terms with their sexuality and places them all alone in a parish. Rather than being in community in which they can share their struggles and feelings with other men, they are left in a very isolated position of being the sole priest for a community of families. They do not have the support, community, nor the accountability that comes from such a community. Instead, they are held up on a pedestal by their parish and have no one to turn to for regular accountability. The same can happen in Protestant churches.

5. Celibacy. Celibacy is definitely a part of the problem. Again, there is no healthy outlet for the clergy's sexual feelings. Celibacy is a gift and charism, it is not for everyone. Forcing someone who does not have the gift of celibacy to live as a celibate is a recipe for trouble. The number of people who actually have a gift for celibacy is probably quite low.

I will say that the occurrence of pedophilia among priests in the Anglican Communion (who are allowed to marry) is much less. Although, like Protestant churches, the sex scandals in Anglican churches tend to occur more among clergy and other adults in their parishes and I think this is for the reasons above (1,2,3,4).

6. The facade the Church upholds. The great error of the Church in this instance is the idea that the church's image is more important to people's faith than dealing with sin publicly and making restitution. The priests and their superiors hide the sexual problems and this has made them much worse. There has been no means of rehabilitating these priests because the problem is hidden or denied rather than dealt with openly.

7. The shortage of priests. If the RC Church had more priests to fill their open positions, they would not have felt such a need to continue placing sexually deviant priests in new parishes.

8. The separation between Church and State. Because the Church has been able to function autonomously from the State, this has allowed authorities to side- step regulations and protocols normally imposed on institutions.

BBBC said:

quote:
What should the Roman Catholic Church do about these scandals and in particular, the perpetrators.

They need to implement programs of awareness and education for the church and clergy, find ways to help people come to terms with their sexuality in healthy ways and acceptance, and implement programs to identify sexual deviancy in their ministerial candidates. They need to relinquish mandatory celibacy and allow marriage. They need to provide a means of accountability to support parish priests. They need to let go of their idolatry to the institution and it's image. They need to implement the same standards of checking for and dealing with sexual crimes as other institutions must adhere to.

The perpetrators themselves must be rehabilitated and never allowed to function in ministry with children again or removed entirely from ministry.

Those are my thoughts! I think it's a very good question. Thank you.

Peace,
~Empiress

Edited by - Empiress on 09/02/2002 3:49:17 PM

PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890

Posted 9/2/2002 9:54 AM (GMT -6)

quote: Celibacy is a gift and charism, it is not for everyone.

One Orthodox book I read pointed out that the gift of celebacy is not necessarily a permanent thing -- it may just be for part of one's life.

Another vote for married priests. (like my brother-in-law)

barneebus
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Date Joined Sep 2002
Total Posts : 14

Posted 9/2/2002 5:15 PM (GMT -6)

BBB wrote:

>"What do you...think of the ..sex scandals...in the Catholic Church?"

Personally I think it is a tragedy of tremendous magnitude.

>"What do you think of the portrayal of the scandal? Is it biased or not?"

I haven't detected any great bias. The media has covered it as a newsworthy scandal, which it certainly is.

>"...the issue ...of celibacy?"

This, IMHO, is a red herring. Many men, single and married, live celibate lives, or nearly so. And without any compulsion to abuse anyone. The source of the problem lies in the fact that the priesthood has for years been a convenient hiding place for ----------- and ----------. Furthermore, the lack of responsiveness by the hierarchy to the scandal -- to the point that predators have even been shielded -- indicates to some degree the scope of infiltration of this "shadow fraternity" into the structure of the RCC.

Secular courts may or may not eventually wade into this profane gutter that has run for years through an honorable institution. I hope they do so, since the leadership (even the Pope!) have failed to act. But my comfort comes from knowing that someday these clerical imposters will stand before a different court, where "what has been whispered in the dark.." shall become known and judged.

>"What should the Roman Catholic Church do about these scandals..?"

IMO, they should be immediately defrocked, permanently disbarred, and deprived of all benefits and perks of the priesthood. Hopefully they will subsequently, of their own accord and as common parishoners, repent and be forgiven.

-Bar

BBBCanada
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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763

Posted 9/3/2002 12:52 PM (GMT -6)

quote:
Well, I do think it is another case of the media rushing to jump and sensationalize a "hot" topic because it grabs attention at the moment, even though such scandals have always existed. I find it very frustrating that the media portrays these occurrences as though they're "new" or "worse" than before (as they have done with the kidnapping and murder of young girls) because it creates an imbalanced perspective and a mood of fear and a sense of unbridled "outbreak" of some kind.

Empiress, I can only address the first paragraph because of time and will try to get to the other stuff within a couple of days. On the highlighted part, one author calls this "moral panic." That is, that sexual misconduct has always existed among the Catholic clergy, the non-Catholic clergy and in the general populace as a whole. What is new is the way many elites in American society began to socially construct the problem of priest sexual abuse, and this beginning in the mid-1980s. According to Catholics, this is not said to exculpate the guilty, but it is to say that a "moral panic," did begin to evidence itself by 1985. It should also be remembered that "moral panic" doesn't occur simply within the context of sexual misconduct, it has occurred with other forms of social illnesses as well. That is, that social problems, are often the product of "social constructions" which is to say that prevailing ideologies help determine which objective conditions are regarded as socially problematic. What this means is that under new lens, what was once considered mundane or merely troublesome, now appears as a crisis that demands immediate attention.

For an example, take poverty. It has always existed, but only in the 1960s (when there was less of it than ever before), did it become dubbed a social problem. The same is true of women's rights. The very same people who once resisted an Equal Rights Amendment, e.g., Eleanor Roosevelt, Judge Dorothy Kenyon, the ACLU and the League of Women's Voters, found themselves swept away by the social changes of the 1960s and 1970s and began pressing earnestly for an amendment they previously worked to defeat. It is not that the objective condition of women had seriously deteriorated from previous decades, rather it was that a new construction of reality had emerged.

Again, were it not for the way the problem of clergy sexual abuse has been socially defined, (by the media) the public would know that the problem is hardly confined to the Catholic community.

So it would seem to me that you would agree with me here?

Brandon
"Sharing a prison cell unites you much more powerfully than sharing a conference table."--Ecumenical Jihad: Ecumenism and the Culture War

Edited by - BBBCanada on 09/03/2002 6:00:27 PM

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