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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:54 PM (GMT -6) |   |
IntentOnTruth
05/28/01 7:30 PM
The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read Greg Boyd's book "God of the Possible." It has caused me to think about this: According to Boyd, the whole issue is about the nature of the future, not the nature of God's knowledge. With this, I agree. So what is the nature of the future (or of time itself)?
Here's my thought...
We've thought about time as the fourth dimension...but what if it is more parallel with space, rather than the dimensions which make up space (length, width, height)?
And what is space? Nothing! Let me explain...
God is not outside time and God is not outside space. Neither time nor space are anything anyway. Space is merely the absence of things. If there is nothing, there is space. If you have one ball here and another ball there, where there are no balls you have space. In the same way, if there is nothing, there is time. Time is merely the distance between two "events."
So why is it so hard for Christians to believe that God operates within time? Time isn't a barrier for God that boxes Him in. Time is nothing.
Does this make sense to anybody?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Newcomb
05/28/01 10:41 PM
The Nature of Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Intent, let me clarify.
Time is indeed the fourth dimension. Dimensions are neccissary things.
Hopefully you understand the concept of neccessary and contingent things. I'll assume you do.
God is the only neccessary being, but, for this being to exist, other things are also neccessary. Dimensions and domains are two of these things. Hmmm, how to explain a dimension . . .
Dimensions are neccessary for domains to exist. At least two dimensions are neccessary for a domain to exist. In our physical universe, an absolute minimum of four are absolute, these are width, height, and depth (say X,Y, and Z axis directions), and time. Time is neccessary to make sense of anything at all. Without it you don't have mass, size, movement, etc. ad nauseum.
I love stories that distort time because the mental exercise is fun. In fact last night I watched the end of "The Final Countdown," one of my favorites. They also show what is wrong with considering time as relative (not the perception, but time itself).
But time and space ARE things. They are real things, they are premanent things. Even Hawkings is wrong about this. He states that before the "Big Bang" there was no time or space. However, withoput time, you could not have had a progressive moment for things to change, and without space, there would be no place for the matter to expand into. Oh, well. Can't be right all the time B-)
Space is not the lack of things, that would be "empty space." You are mixing a few concepts here. We think of outer space as empty, but it is far from empty. I think you are mixing concepts of outer space and 3D space.
You are correct on several statments of time, even if nothing physical exists, there is time. And time is the "distance" between events. I would state it a little different, time is the sequencing of events, even if it is just the passing of time, each moment is an event.
You kind of contradict yourself several times, you are right, time is a dimension, but it cannot be something and nothing at the same time and in the same sense, but I think you are on the right track.
It is hard for Christians to understand God in time because it blows their bubble, how can God know something from before creation and then be grieved when it happens? Etc. Etc. but it also harkens back to the Greeks who first conciened that the "ultimate being" could not move or change anything at all and was uneffected by time, therefore was outside of time. This was wrapped into the church by Augustine and others who brought the baggage of Greek philosophy with them and dumped it on the church.
Keep thinking, you're on the right track.
"Newk'em"
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/28/01 11:19 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you are saying. What you've said is what I have believed previously. However, I am asking us to look at it differently. Does it really make sense to see time as a dimension? I am starting to fear that it doesn't.
I don't mix the terms "outer space" and "empty space" together. I agree with you that outer space isn't empty. When I refer to space, I am referring to what you call "empty space." (which is nothingness)Outer space is not nothingness.
I believe in "empty time" (which is nothingness as well). It "exists" as much as "empty space" exists. There is no way for God to be outside of "empty space" or "empty time" because they imply nothingness. There is nothing beyond nothing(ness).
It makes more sense for me to see time not as a dimension, but as a counterpart to space. Whatever space is (space is multidimensional, so it cannot be considered a dimension), time is on a similar level.
I guess my question to you would be...do you think there is something beyond "empty space"? I don't think there is because How can there be boundaries to something that isn't anything? Once there are boundaries, you make it into something (which requires that it be created). The same thing goes for time. There are no boundaries to time. Therefore God cannot be beyond it. That doesn't put God in some kind of box, because once again, there are no boundaries to time--it isn't anything to capture.
Time and space never were created, because there isn't anything to create. They are simply the absence of created things.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/29/01 11:23 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I hope no one out there thinks I'm being too scientific or abstract or anything... I think this is very important. If God created time (or space), I think God exists outside of time (and space) as well as inside of it, because He must be everywhere and He must have been outside of it before it was created...because it wasn't there! But if time is simply the absence of events (and is nothing to be created)...then there's no reason to believe that God is or could be outside of it.
IntentOnTruth
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Still_unsure
05/30/01 5:44 PM
RE: RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi IntentOnTruth:
I think there is some difficulty in claiming that time is "nothing".
There have been several experiments performed where time has actually been dilated as predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. It would seem to indicate time and space is actually "something".
Lord bless
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Newcomb
05/30/01 9:40 PM
RE: RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Intent,
You are right in stating that space is not a dimension, it is a domain. At least two dimensions are required for a domain to exist, but as long as dimensions exist, the dependent domain exists, and dimensions are not created, therefore they cannot be destroyed, ergo, the dependent domains inherit their continuity.
The dimensions that cause the domain we call "space" are width (X axis) height (the Y axis) and depth (the Z axis). The resulting domain is "space." It is not nothingness, it is a specific domain with definable attributes caused by the dimensions it is made up of.
Only theoretical space is empty. No one has ever experienced empty space. Simply because something can be described does not mean it exists. We describe lots of things that don't exist.
Also, "empty time" does not exist either. When was there a sequence of moments were nothing happened? Certainly not after the universe was formed. We use Rubidium clocks to make a time and frequency standard for the military. Rubidium (and everything else) continues to change each moment. There is never a moment where it doesn't change, that is why it can be used as a standard by which we measure other things.
For time to be empty, there can be no other things at all in existence and that isn't the case. There are other necessary things that exist and there always have been because there has always been God, as well as whatever dimensions exist.
It is really irrelevant what makes sense for you if you are wrong. You are making up a story, not dealing with reality. The story has nothing to do with facts. Time is not a counterpart to space. It simply isn't so.
You write: "I guess my question to you would be...do you think there is something beyond "empty space"? I don't think there is because How can there be boundaries to something that isn't anything?"
You are having etiological problems. Nothing = Nothing. Nothing does not = anything else. Either you have "nothing" or you have "something." Something cannot be nothing ("something that isn't anything"). The statement is meaningless and self contradictory.
Do you understand what I mean? You are defining a "thing" as "no-thing," it can't be both, that contradicts itself.
You are right that there are no definable boundaries in "nothing" but space and time are not like that. Space has the three boundary conditions, as above. Time IS a boundary condition because, of course, it is a dimension.
Also, you state "Once there are boundaries, you make it into something (which requires that it be created)." This is not so. God is something, and he isn't created.
Your statements often contradict themselves. You state God is outside of time, but then state he can't be outside of time because there are no boundary conditions on time. You need to be more consistent to make sense of what you are trying to say. There are a number of contradictory statements like that in your text I don't have time to weed out and explain.
'Newk'em"
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/30/01 11:35 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I really don't want to dwell on this topic. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, and we are foolish if we think we can seriously discuss it (as far as I know, no one here is an expert on these scientific matters).
All I have left to say is that the biggest argument against my opinion in this matter seems to be that I am contradictory. Well, in my defense, I think I'm only contradictory semantically. It's hard to put in words what I'm trying to say. When I say something is nothing, that seems contradictory semantically, but I don't think it really is. What I am trying to say is being missed. Of course, God was never created and He is something, but He is the exception to the rule. If time and space were never created, they can't be something, because that would make them eternal and God alone is eternal. Therefore, time and space are nothing (to be created). Sure, they are something to TALK ABOUT, but that makes them only something in our heads.
I don't intend to try to prove my theory, because I admit that it's merely a provocative theory...I'm no scientist with various data. But I find the idea intriguing and still don't see anything that would suggest it a wrong way of looking at it.
What intrigues me is this: if time is a domain (much like space), what might its "dimensions" be? ...
I think I'll leave this discussion to those who would like to carry it on. I merely wanted to present another way of looking at time and space. Perhaps someone will be able look beyond the apparent contradictions and grasp what I'm trying, but failing, to convey.
That's all.
Time's up!!
IntentOnTruth
05/28/01 7:30 PM
The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have read Greg Boyd's book "God of the Possible." It has caused me to think about this: According to Boyd, the whole issue is about the nature of the future, not the nature of God's knowledge. With this, I agree. So what is the nature of the future (or of time itself)?
Here's my thought...
We've thought about time as the fourth dimension...but what if it is more parallel with space, rather than the dimensions which make up space (length, width, height)?
And what is space? Nothing! Let me explain...
God is not outside time and God is not outside space. Neither time nor space are anything anyway. Space is merely the absence of things. If there is nothing, there is space. If you have one ball here and another ball there, where there are no balls you have space. In the same way, if there is nothing, there is time. Time is merely the distance between two "events."
So why is it so hard for Christians to believe that God operates within time? Time isn't a barrier for God that boxes Him in. Time is nothing.
Does this make sense to anybody?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Newcomb
05/28/01 10:41 PM
The Nature of Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Intent, let me clarify.
Time is indeed the fourth dimension. Dimensions are neccissary things.
Hopefully you understand the concept of neccessary and contingent things. I'll assume you do.
God is the only neccessary being, but, for this being to exist, other things are also neccessary. Dimensions and domains are two of these things. Hmmm, how to explain a dimension . . .
Dimensions are neccessary for domains to exist. At least two dimensions are neccessary for a domain to exist. In our physical universe, an absolute minimum of four are absolute, these are width, height, and depth (say X,Y, and Z axis directions), and time. Time is neccessary to make sense of anything at all. Without it you don't have mass, size, movement, etc. ad nauseum.
I love stories that distort time because the mental exercise is fun. In fact last night I watched the end of "The Final Countdown," one of my favorites. They also show what is wrong with considering time as relative (not the perception, but time itself).
But time and space ARE things. They are real things, they are premanent things. Even Hawkings is wrong about this. He states that before the "Big Bang" there was no time or space. However, withoput time, you could not have had a progressive moment for things to change, and without space, there would be no place for the matter to expand into. Oh, well. Can't be right all the time B-)
Space is not the lack of things, that would be "empty space." You are mixing a few concepts here. We think of outer space as empty, but it is far from empty. I think you are mixing concepts of outer space and 3D space.
You are correct on several statments of time, even if nothing physical exists, there is time. And time is the "distance" between events. I would state it a little different, time is the sequencing of events, even if it is just the passing of time, each moment is an event.
You kind of contradict yourself several times, you are right, time is a dimension, but it cannot be something and nothing at the same time and in the same sense, but I think you are on the right track.
It is hard for Christians to understand God in time because it blows their bubble, how can God know something from before creation and then be grieved when it happens? Etc. Etc. but it also harkens back to the Greeks who first conciened that the "ultimate being" could not move or change anything at all and was uneffected by time, therefore was outside of time. This was wrapped into the church by Augustine and others who brought the baggage of Greek philosophy with them and dumped it on the church.
Keep thinking, you're on the right track.
"Newk'em"
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/28/01 11:19 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you are saying. What you've said is what I have believed previously. However, I am asking us to look at it differently. Does it really make sense to see time as a dimension? I am starting to fear that it doesn't.
I don't mix the terms "outer space" and "empty space" together. I agree with you that outer space isn't empty. When I refer to space, I am referring to what you call "empty space." (which is nothingness)Outer space is not nothingness.
I believe in "empty time" (which is nothingness as well). It "exists" as much as "empty space" exists. There is no way for God to be outside of "empty space" or "empty time" because they imply nothingness. There is nothing beyond nothing(ness).
It makes more sense for me to see time not as a dimension, but as a counterpart to space. Whatever space is (space is multidimensional, so it cannot be considered a dimension), time is on a similar level.
I guess my question to you would be...do you think there is something beyond "empty space"? I don't think there is because How can there be boundaries to something that isn't anything? Once there are boundaries, you make it into something (which requires that it be created). The same thing goes for time. There are no boundaries to time. Therefore God cannot be beyond it. That doesn't put God in some kind of box, because once again, there are no boundaries to time--it isn't anything to capture.
Time and space never were created, because there isn't anything to create. They are simply the absence of created things.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/29/01 11:23 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, I hope no one out there thinks I'm being too scientific or abstract or anything... I think this is very important. If God created time (or space), I think God exists outside of time (and space) as well as inside of it, because He must be everywhere and He must have been outside of it before it was created...because it wasn't there! But if time is simply the absence of events (and is nothing to be created)...then there's no reason to believe that God is or could be outside of it.
IntentOnTruth
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Still_unsure
05/30/01 5:44 PM
RE: RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi IntentOnTruth:
I think there is some difficulty in claiming that time is "nothing".
There have been several experiments performed where time has actually been dilated as predicted by Einstein's theory of relativity. It would seem to indicate time and space is actually "something".
Lord bless
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Newcomb
05/30/01 9:40 PM
RE: RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Intent,
You are right in stating that space is not a dimension, it is a domain. At least two dimensions are required for a domain to exist, but as long as dimensions exist, the dependent domain exists, and dimensions are not created, therefore they cannot be destroyed, ergo, the dependent domains inherit their continuity.
The dimensions that cause the domain we call "space" are width (X axis) height (the Y axis) and depth (the Z axis). The resulting domain is "space." It is not nothingness, it is a specific domain with definable attributes caused by the dimensions it is made up of.
Only theoretical space is empty. No one has ever experienced empty space. Simply because something can be described does not mean it exists. We describe lots of things that don't exist.
Also, "empty time" does not exist either. When was there a sequence of moments were nothing happened? Certainly not after the universe was formed. We use Rubidium clocks to make a time and frequency standard for the military. Rubidium (and everything else) continues to change each moment. There is never a moment where it doesn't change, that is why it can be used as a standard by which we measure other things.
For time to be empty, there can be no other things at all in existence and that isn't the case. There are other necessary things that exist and there always have been because there has always been God, as well as whatever dimensions exist.
It is really irrelevant what makes sense for you if you are wrong. You are making up a story, not dealing with reality. The story has nothing to do with facts. Time is not a counterpart to space. It simply isn't so.
You write: "I guess my question to you would be...do you think there is something beyond "empty space"? I don't think there is because How can there be boundaries to something that isn't anything?"
You are having etiological problems. Nothing = Nothing. Nothing does not = anything else. Either you have "nothing" or you have "something." Something cannot be nothing ("something that isn't anything"). The statement is meaningless and self contradictory.
Do you understand what I mean? You are defining a "thing" as "no-thing," it can't be both, that contradicts itself.
You are right that there are no definable boundaries in "nothing" but space and time are not like that. Space has the three boundary conditions, as above. Time IS a boundary condition because, of course, it is a dimension.
Also, you state "Once there are boundaries, you make it into something (which requires that it be created)." This is not so. God is something, and he isn't created.
Your statements often contradict themselves. You state God is outside of time, but then state he can't be outside of time because there are no boundary conditions on time. You need to be more consistent to make sense of what you are trying to say. There are a number of contradictory statements like that in your text I don't have time to weed out and explain.
'Newk'em"
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
IntentOnTruth
05/30/01 11:35 PM
RE: The Nature of Time (as I've expounded on from an Open Theist perspective)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I really don't want to dwell on this topic. Ultimately, it doesn't matter, and we are foolish if we think we can seriously discuss it (as far as I know, no one here is an expert on these scientific matters).
All I have left to say is that the biggest argument against my opinion in this matter seems to be that I am contradictory. Well, in my defense, I think I'm only contradictory semantically. It's hard to put in words what I'm trying to say. When I say something is nothing, that seems contradictory semantically, but I don't think it really is. What I am trying to say is being missed. Of course, God was never created and He is something, but He is the exception to the rule. If time and space were never created, they can't be something, because that would make them eternal and God alone is eternal. Therefore, time and space are nothing (to be created). Sure, they are something to TALK ABOUT, but that makes them only something in our heads.
I don't intend to try to prove my theory, because I admit that it's merely a provocative theory...I'm no scientist with various data. But I find the idea intriguing and still don't see anything that would suggest it a wrong way of looking at it.
What intrigues me is this: if time is a domain (much like space), what might its "dimensions" be? ...
I think I'll leave this discussion to those who would like to carry it on. I merely wanted to present another way of looking at time and space. Perhaps someone will be able look beyond the apparent contradictions and grasp what I'm trying, but failing, to convey.
That's all.
Time's up!!
v
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