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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:29 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Yofu
05/07/01 12:13 AM
question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a theory in physics called the "many worlds interpretation of quantum physics." I understand there is a similar or identical theory in some metaphysical and epistemological systems in philosophy.
If you are familiar with these theories, please tell me what implications they would have for
-human freedom?
-divine experience of time?
-divine foreknowledge?
I have my own theory in this regard, but I'll explain it later when I have a little more time...
Thanks!
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
05/07/01 4:18 PM
RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t know much of anything about quantum physics but what you describe sounds a bit like molinism. Molinism posits that in addition to this actual world God created many many other counterfactual worlds. In each one of these worlds humans poses genuine libertarian free will (as defined by the molinists that given certain antecedence God knows that the human subject would freely act a certain way). So we would be free in this way but we would not be free to choose which of our choices or which of the worlds becomes actual. God’s experience of time, as far as I can gather, is the traditional view that God is living in an always eternal NOW encompassing past present and future in a single point. In regards to foreknowledge God knows all events in all counterfactual worlds from eternity past because he knows how each individual would freely act given certain circumstances.
So what are the problems with molinism? As I see it there are a few. First, we cannot ground the truth of these counterfactuals. Second, this actual world was chosen because it was the one in which the most of God’s ideal will was carried out by our freedom. Basically if molinism is true we really are living in the best of all possible worlds and I find this rather disappointing. If this is the best of all worlds what must the others be like? Third, the problem of evil is as much of a problem as ever. God must take all of the credit when things are good as they should be but he must also take all of the blame when things go wrong. Forth, the scriptural support for this view is stretched at best. They interact with the normal verses about foreknowledge and sovereignty and everything but they really have a large leap to make it to the very very philosophical strong points of this view. Molinism is very philosophical but not very Biblical, and even where it is philosophical it is weak. Does any of this sound like the ‘multiple worlds view’ in physics. If not I’m sorry.
Counterfactuals and counterfalsities
—Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Yofu
05/07/01 8:21 PM
RE: RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I am talking about is different from molinism because it affirms that all possible worlds are actual worlds, whereas molinism says that only one possible world was actualized.
I *think* there *may* be a problem with Open Theism regarding the relationship of God to time if there is but one timeline and one future. I am not clear on this however, my thoughts are all on the "intuitive level" right now. But it is something along the lines of "if there is one future, and God is discovering that future along with us, and the actual nature of that future did not come from God alone but also from the actions of creatures of libertarian free will, then God is dependant on a flow of time which comes from outside of himself. I do not think anyone wants to affirm that God is dependent on something outside of himself."
Not rigourous at *all* but I think I see something in that...
*BUT* if there were not one single future, but rather, every possible future (and present and past, for taht matter) were an actual world, then we could affirm that God knows "every possible" future - and since every possible future is an actual future,
A. Human libertarian freedom is preserved. I am the Yofu who chose, freely, to type at my computer at this hour. There is another world in which a fellow named Yofu did not so choose, but that was his choice. These things were not determined by anything other than me-Yofu and that-other-Yofu.
Now, as to whether God is beholden to the actions of these libertarianly free creatures, let us further assume that every timeline is in fact known and planned entirely by God - then
B. God's knowledge is not beholden to a flow of time which comes from outside himself.
God's foreknowledge of *all* futures is affirmed, though his foreknowledge of *my* future right now is neither affirmed nor necessary. God's own independence is affirmed, though his true openness to his own creation is affirmed becasue God has a plan which includes every single timeline within it, so that while we navigate our way through the timelines, God's plan for the timeline we bring ourselves into is put into effect, effectively, in response to our choices.
This seems to me to allow the main point of Open theism - the openness of God and the true freedom of his creation - to stand, along with most of the implications and conclusions which come from an Open view of God - while at the same time modifying teh Open view to answer what may possibly be a real criticism of the current Open theistic view of God's relationship to time.
Does this make *any* sense *whatsoever?*
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Still_unsure
05/08/01 9:58 PM
RE: RE: RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Yofu:
Interesting thoughts!
You said-
"if there is one future, and God is discovering that future along with us, and the actual nature of that future did not come from God alone but also from the actions of creatures of libertarian free will, then God is dependant on a flow of time which comes from outside of himself. I do not think anyone wants to affirm that God is dependent on something outside of himself."
Our timeline came into existence at the moment of creation - the big bang. Space and time were created together, they are dependant on each other. As God has always existed, He must exist outside of our time, or in more dimensions of time than just our single one. Quantum mechanics states that when the universe was initially created, it had to begin with at least 10 dimensions. Of these 10, only 4 expanded with the universe- our 3 space and 1 time dimensions. Interestingly, an ancient Jewish commentator almost exactly described this MODERN theory in his commentary on Genesis.(Nahmanides, 1194 to 1270 -Commentary on Genesis)
If there is a problem with Open Theism, I think it has more to do with Relativity. As there is no "universal" present moment, God cannot be omnipresent and not have his knowledge extend in time.
But I could be wrong, I am more often than not.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/09/01 9:37 AM
In Defense of Molinism: Part One--What Did God Know Before Creation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yofu and all,
I wanna get down on this, yo. First, on the multiple worlds thing, Yofu. The concept is represented well in the premise of the Sci-Fi show "Sliders", right? I think so. As you recall, the "infinite worlds" premise states that some worlds that exist may be almost EXACTLY the same except for ONE minute detail, whereas some worlds may be vastly different. I've considered what you've said before. The take is interesting in that, if this is true, there could EXIST a universalism type world...as well as a universal HELL type world. I'd like you to notice that, in positing this, essentially the same problems still emerge. If God did actualize all possible worlds, then that means He actualized worlds MUCH WORSE than this one. Maybe he actualized one where the Axis powers created the atom bomb first and won the war. Maybe he actualized on where the Holocaust COMPLETELY annihilated the Jew to extinction. Do you see what I'm saying? What would that say about God's goodness? But enough on that.
[Digression: For all you comic book fans, DC and Marvel make a KILLING off of this idea! DC "Elseworlds" and Marvel "What If..." titles base their whole premise upon taking popular comic book characters and placing them in different eras in different situations. What if Superman killed the President. What if Captain America turned Nazi. Stuff like that. Yes, comics RULE! If anyone has seen the movie "Mallrats", I have Brodie beat as far as comic knowledge!]
***************************
Next, I have to say that I pretty much agree with Molinism as being viable for the most part. To explain why, I'm going to have to go through a couple of stages here. First things first. I want to get some response on this:
What was the domain of God's knowledge base before Creation? In other words, what did the mind of God contain pre-Creation?
I'm going to give my perspective here and I'd like to hear YOUR views of God's pre-creation knowledge and/or critique of my idea. This is the FIRST STEP in my affirmation of "middle knowledge"
First I want to give a quote from "God of the Possible" p.127
"The list of possibilities you face each day is voluminous. And which each decision from among all those possibilities, you open up a whole new set of possibilities. A God who faces a partially open future would know every one of these possibilities from all eternity (for as we said, possibilities, unlike actualities, are eternal. Not only this, but he would also know every possibility that attaches to every possible choice that you have now have, and every possibility that attaches to each of those possibilities and so on throughout your life. And he would know this about every possible creature he might create throughout history."
Ok. Quick note. In this quote, Doc centers around human choice and decision. Though this is necessarily incorporated in to the domain of God's knowledge, there is MORE that can be said, if we stick with the logic. (Actually, this becomes QUITE clear with Whitehead) The depth of God's knowledge would go beyond only possible CHOICES. It would extend to any and all possible states of reality comprised of any given set of possibilities. Stay with me on this! It's VERY important that you read this VERY carefully and slowly to grasp the content.
For any potential time T, God knows all logical possibilities, mental concepts, and potential entities in that particular state of reality at time T. For any logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities that emerge from the state of reality at the potential time T, God knows all logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities that CAN emerge from each of those antecedent logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities. God had all this knowledge from eternity past.
Read it TEN TIMES if you have to grasp it. But it's very important. Think about Doc's infinite chessmaster analogy. Instead of equating the possible moves in chess to possible human choices, equate the possible moves to possible STATES OF REALITY comprised of X logical possibilities, concepts, and potential entities at some given time T.
When you work this out, it has the PRACTICAL effect of the "all possible worlds" thesis. The ONLY difference is that "all possible worlds" only exist as CONCEPTS in the mind of God, pre-Creation! They are NOT existents per se. Thus I would say that the domain of God's knowledge base pre-Creation was as follows:
1) God's self-knowledge
2) God's knowledge of his OWN intentions and plans
3) "All possible worlds" that could be created
It's important that we get this down first before I go any further.
Questions, comments?
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
badlejeune
05/09/01 9:52 AM
RE: In Defense of Molinism: Part One--What Did God Know Before Creation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it possible that God was completely innocent of any knowledge of evil before he set out creating? Maybe the thought of the creature rebelling never occured to God because it was inconceivable in his glory/purity or whatever. Probably not, but just asking.
lejeune
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Yofu
05/09/01 6:51 PM
Pre-Creation knowledge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may have a problem with speaking of "pre-creation" states of reality because if time is part of creation, then there is nothing before creation...
But perhaps I can understand "pre-creation" as meaning "causally" pre rather than "temporally" pre. Ie, the pre-creation state of mind of God is whatever it is in God's mind which is the case *logically* prior to God's deciding to create. Ne?
Ok, so, in that case, your summary sounds about right.
As to the problem of evil, it's like I said, the many-worlds theory doesn't help any. It makes God responsible not only for the evils in this world, but for the evils in every other world as well. Pretty terrible...
I have some secret thoughts on this subject. They connect with the fact that Jesus Christ, whose life is the life of God, suffered terribly and died. Evil was part of God's life on earth... hmm...
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Mephi2K
05/13/01 2:31 PM
IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, Yofu and Wislawa. I'm getting busy but, I didn't want to forget this. If we are on the same level, with respect to the basic aspects of Part One, let's continue.
What exactly does this "all possible worlds" knowledge consist of?
What I submit is that God's possible actions are INCLUDED in this body of knowledge. I'll give examples. One possible world is where God decided to incarnate himself as a Julius Caesar and rule. Another possible world is where instead of choosing Abraham, God chose someone else. Another possible world is where God, directly after the Fall, incarnated himself MUCH EARLIER. Hopefully, this gets across what I'm saying. With respect to all the possible realities that could be created, God's OWN POTENTIAL ACTIONS (or INactions) are factored into that set.
Remember, God's revelation is also HISTORICAL. The Parting of the Red Sea. The Plagues. The destruction of Jericho. The "fire from heaven" in the Elijah/Baal prophets confrontation. Given what we have said about God's knowledge pre-Creation, we have to say that God not only knew a given situation, but he ALSO knew his potential responses to said situation and what RAMIFICATIONS any of his particular responses could have on the situation.
One more example. The Zosia occurance. God's "all-possible worlds" knowledge would encompassing his knowledge of possible worlds where He saved her from getting her eyes cut out and being killed. One world where he saved her via angel. Another world where He saved her via heart-attack of the leader. Any number of ways. This implies that a temporal God would know VAST NUMBERS of ways in which to save Zosia at the appropriate time...and he would know what potential ramifications would come from that salvation.
The entire point I want made on this section is that the "all-possible worlds" knowledge that God possessed INCLUDED his own actions (or inaction) at any given points in the respective realities with the various potential agents.
Is this point clear to you? Do you agree? I want to go REALLY slow to make sure that I'm understood.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Yofu
05/14/01 8:20 PM
RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I'm with you so far...
I've actually been having some thoughts along similar lines - ie, involving the fact that for God to foreknow a future situation, he would also have "had to" foreknow his own state in that situation. There's an interesting angle on God calling reality into being by his presence somewhere in there...
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
05/14/01 9:49 PM
RE: RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yo Theo-dudes,
I'm groov'n on this thread. Way cool stuff, as my friend "Shine" used to say (till Meph OUTTED HIM! poop). I'm still trying to appease an editor who has a death threat on my life if I don't honor certain already-passed deadlines, otherwise I'd dive into this juicy yummy theo-delicatesent hook-line-and sinker. For right now, I'd just say, Meph, youze gots alllll the right instincts.... Thats why I'm still holding out hope for you. (smile face smile face... someone remind me how to make those!!!).
Question for Meph: Do your "possible worlds" include MIGHT-COUNTERFACTUALS??? Propositions about what MIGHT or MIGHT not happen are either TRUE or FALSE -- Eternallyy!!! -- and hence would be known from eternity by an omniscient God (as MAYBES). With this provisio, Meph, I wholly agree (I think) with everything you've said so far.
Enjoying the brain power evidenced here!
Doc-from-a-distance
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/14/01 11:11 PM
Clarification please
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"for God to foreknow a future situation, he would also have "had to" foreknow his own state in that situation."
When you are talking about Gods state of being, are you talking about the choices that He would have in a particular situation or the choices that he would make in that same situation. Maybe I am over simplifying this, but if you are talking about the choices that He would make, then He just gave us free will, but gave up His own. That leads us back to an off-kilter form of predestination. Instead of us being automitons, He would be one instead. Does this make sense?
MrIndifference :|
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
05/14/01 11:17 PM
RE: RE: RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc says: "(smile face smile face... someone remind me how to make those!!!)."
You are WAY FUNNY, Doc! Considering that you are such an intelligent person, it makes one giggle to think that you can't figure out the smiley face thing
It's a colon followed by a inverted parenthesis.
It's this -> : first followed by this -> )
Blessings
trosie
Message
Yofu
05/07/01 12:13 AM
question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a theory in physics called the "many worlds interpretation of quantum physics." I understand there is a similar or identical theory in some metaphysical and epistemological systems in philosophy.
If you are familiar with these theories, please tell me what implications they would have for
-human freedom?
-divine experience of time?
-divine foreknowledge?
I have my own theory in this regard, but I'll explain it later when I have a little more time...
Thanks!
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Wislawa
05/07/01 4:18 PM
RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t know much of anything about quantum physics but what you describe sounds a bit like molinism. Molinism posits that in addition to this actual world God created many many other counterfactual worlds. In each one of these worlds humans poses genuine libertarian free will (as defined by the molinists that given certain antecedence God knows that the human subject would freely act a certain way). So we would be free in this way but we would not be free to choose which of our choices or which of the worlds becomes actual. God’s experience of time, as far as I can gather, is the traditional view that God is living in an always eternal NOW encompassing past present and future in a single point. In regards to foreknowledge God knows all events in all counterfactual worlds from eternity past because he knows how each individual would freely act given certain circumstances.
So what are the problems with molinism? As I see it there are a few. First, we cannot ground the truth of these counterfactuals. Second, this actual world was chosen because it was the one in which the most of God’s ideal will was carried out by our freedom. Basically if molinism is true we really are living in the best of all possible worlds and I find this rather disappointing. If this is the best of all worlds what must the others be like? Third, the problem of evil is as much of a problem as ever. God must take all of the credit when things are good as they should be but he must also take all of the blame when things go wrong. Forth, the scriptural support for this view is stretched at best. They interact with the normal verses about foreknowledge and sovereignty and everything but they really have a large leap to make it to the very very philosophical strong points of this view. Molinism is very philosophical but not very Biblical, and even where it is philosophical it is weak. Does any of this sound like the ‘multiple worlds view’ in physics. If not I’m sorry.
Counterfactuals and counterfalsities
—Wislawa
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Yofu
05/07/01 8:21 PM
RE: RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I am talking about is different from molinism because it affirms that all possible worlds are actual worlds, whereas molinism says that only one possible world was actualized.
I *think* there *may* be a problem with Open Theism regarding the relationship of God to time if there is but one timeline and one future. I am not clear on this however, my thoughts are all on the "intuitive level" right now. But it is something along the lines of "if there is one future, and God is discovering that future along with us, and the actual nature of that future did not come from God alone but also from the actions of creatures of libertarian free will, then God is dependant on a flow of time which comes from outside of himself. I do not think anyone wants to affirm that God is dependent on something outside of himself."
Not rigourous at *all* but I think I see something in that...
*BUT* if there were not one single future, but rather, every possible future (and present and past, for taht matter) were an actual world, then we could affirm that God knows "every possible" future - and since every possible future is an actual future,
A. Human libertarian freedom is preserved. I am the Yofu who chose, freely, to type at my computer at this hour. There is another world in which a fellow named Yofu did not so choose, but that was his choice. These things were not determined by anything other than me-Yofu and that-other-Yofu.
Now, as to whether God is beholden to the actions of these libertarianly free creatures, let us further assume that every timeline is in fact known and planned entirely by God - then
B. God's knowledge is not beholden to a flow of time which comes from outside himself.
God's foreknowledge of *all* futures is affirmed, though his foreknowledge of *my* future right now is neither affirmed nor necessary. God's own independence is affirmed, though his true openness to his own creation is affirmed becasue God has a plan which includes every single timeline within it, so that while we navigate our way through the timelines, God's plan for the timeline we bring ourselves into is put into effect, effectively, in response to our choices.
This seems to me to allow the main point of Open theism - the openness of God and the true freedom of his creation - to stand, along with most of the implications and conclusions which come from an Open view of God - while at the same time modifying teh Open view to answer what may possibly be a real criticism of the current Open theistic view of God's relationship to time.
Does this make *any* sense *whatsoever?*
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Still_unsure
05/08/01 9:58 PM
RE: RE: RE: question number 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Yofu:
Interesting thoughts!
You said-
"if there is one future, and God is discovering that future along with us, and the actual nature of that future did not come from God alone but also from the actions of creatures of libertarian free will, then God is dependant on a flow of time which comes from outside of himself. I do not think anyone wants to affirm that God is dependent on something outside of himself."
Our timeline came into existence at the moment of creation - the big bang. Space and time were created together, they are dependant on each other. As God has always existed, He must exist outside of our time, or in more dimensions of time than just our single one. Quantum mechanics states that when the universe was initially created, it had to begin with at least 10 dimensions. Of these 10, only 4 expanded with the universe- our 3 space and 1 time dimensions. Interestingly, an ancient Jewish commentator almost exactly described this MODERN theory in his commentary on Genesis.(Nahmanides, 1194 to 1270 -Commentary on Genesis)
If there is a problem with Open Theism, I think it has more to do with Relativity. As there is no "universal" present moment, God cannot be omnipresent and not have his knowledge extend in time.
But I could be wrong, I am more often than not.
Rob
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
05/09/01 9:37 AM
In Defense of Molinism: Part One--What Did God Know Before Creation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yofu and all,
I wanna get down on this, yo. First, on the multiple worlds thing, Yofu. The concept is represented well in the premise of the Sci-Fi show "Sliders", right? I think so. As you recall, the "infinite worlds" premise states that some worlds that exist may be almost EXACTLY the same except for ONE minute detail, whereas some worlds may be vastly different. I've considered what you've said before. The take is interesting in that, if this is true, there could EXIST a universalism type world...as well as a universal HELL type world. I'd like you to notice that, in positing this, essentially the same problems still emerge. If God did actualize all possible worlds, then that means He actualized worlds MUCH WORSE than this one. Maybe he actualized one where the Axis powers created the atom bomb first and won the war. Maybe he actualized on where the Holocaust COMPLETELY annihilated the Jew to extinction. Do you see what I'm saying? What would that say about God's goodness? But enough on that.
[Digression: For all you comic book fans, DC and Marvel make a KILLING off of this idea! DC "Elseworlds" and Marvel "What If..." titles base their whole premise upon taking popular comic book characters and placing them in different eras in different situations. What if Superman killed the President. What if Captain America turned Nazi. Stuff like that. Yes, comics RULE! If anyone has seen the movie "Mallrats", I have Brodie beat as far as comic knowledge!]
***************************
Next, I have to say that I pretty much agree with Molinism as being viable for the most part. To explain why, I'm going to have to go through a couple of stages here. First things first. I want to get some response on this:
What was the domain of God's knowledge base before Creation? In other words, what did the mind of God contain pre-Creation?
I'm going to give my perspective here and I'd like to hear YOUR views of God's pre-creation knowledge and/or critique of my idea. This is the FIRST STEP in my affirmation of "middle knowledge"
First I want to give a quote from "God of the Possible" p.127
"The list of possibilities you face each day is voluminous. And which each decision from among all those possibilities, you open up a whole new set of possibilities. A God who faces a partially open future would know every one of these possibilities from all eternity (for as we said, possibilities, unlike actualities, are eternal. Not only this, but he would also know every possibility that attaches to every possible choice that you have now have, and every possibility that attaches to each of those possibilities and so on throughout your life. And he would know this about every possible creature he might create throughout history."
Ok. Quick note. In this quote, Doc centers around human choice and decision. Though this is necessarily incorporated in to the domain of God's knowledge, there is MORE that can be said, if we stick with the logic. (Actually, this becomes QUITE clear with Whitehead) The depth of God's knowledge would go beyond only possible CHOICES. It would extend to any and all possible states of reality comprised of any given set of possibilities. Stay with me on this! It's VERY important that you read this VERY carefully and slowly to grasp the content.
For any potential time T, God knows all logical possibilities, mental concepts, and potential entities in that particular state of reality at time T. For any logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities that emerge from the state of reality at the potential time T, God knows all logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities that CAN emerge from each of those antecedent logical possibilities, mental concepts, and/or potential entities. God had all this knowledge from eternity past.
Read it TEN TIMES if you have to grasp it. But it's very important. Think about Doc's infinite chessmaster analogy. Instead of equating the possible moves in chess to possible human choices, equate the possible moves to possible STATES OF REALITY comprised of X logical possibilities, concepts, and potential entities at some given time T.
When you work this out, it has the PRACTICAL effect of the "all possible worlds" thesis. The ONLY difference is that "all possible worlds" only exist as CONCEPTS in the mind of God, pre-Creation! They are NOT existents per se. Thus I would say that the domain of God's knowledge base pre-Creation was as follows:
1) God's self-knowledge
2) God's knowledge of his OWN intentions and plans
3) "All possible worlds" that could be created
It's important that we get this down first before I go any further.
Questions, comments?
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
badlejeune
05/09/01 9:52 AM
RE: In Defense of Molinism: Part One--What Did God Know Before Creation?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is it possible that God was completely innocent of any knowledge of evil before he set out creating? Maybe the thought of the creature rebelling never occured to God because it was inconceivable in his glory/purity or whatever. Probably not, but just asking.
lejeune
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Yofu
05/09/01 6:51 PM
Pre-Creation knowledge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may have a problem with speaking of "pre-creation" states of reality because if time is part of creation, then there is nothing before creation...
But perhaps I can understand "pre-creation" as meaning "causally" pre rather than "temporally" pre. Ie, the pre-creation state of mind of God is whatever it is in God's mind which is the case *logically* prior to God's deciding to create. Ne?
Ok, so, in that case, your summary sounds about right.
As to the problem of evil, it's like I said, the many-worlds theory doesn't help any. It makes God responsible not only for the evils in this world, but for the evils in every other world as well. Pretty terrible...
I have some secret thoughts on this subject. They connect with the fact that Jesus Christ, whose life is the life of God, suffered terribly and died. Evil was part of God's life on earth... hmm...
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Mephi2K
05/13/01 2:31 PM
IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, Yofu and Wislawa. I'm getting busy but, I didn't want to forget this. If we are on the same level, with respect to the basic aspects of Part One, let's continue.
What exactly does this "all possible worlds" knowledge consist of?
What I submit is that God's possible actions are INCLUDED in this body of knowledge. I'll give examples. One possible world is where God decided to incarnate himself as a Julius Caesar and rule. Another possible world is where instead of choosing Abraham, God chose someone else. Another possible world is where God, directly after the Fall, incarnated himself MUCH EARLIER. Hopefully, this gets across what I'm saying. With respect to all the possible realities that could be created, God's OWN POTENTIAL ACTIONS (or INactions) are factored into that set.
Remember, God's revelation is also HISTORICAL. The Parting of the Red Sea. The Plagues. The destruction of Jericho. The "fire from heaven" in the Elijah/Baal prophets confrontation. Given what we have said about God's knowledge pre-Creation, we have to say that God not only knew a given situation, but he ALSO knew his potential responses to said situation and what RAMIFICATIONS any of his particular responses could have on the situation.
One more example. The Zosia occurance. God's "all-possible worlds" knowledge would encompassing his knowledge of possible worlds where He saved her from getting her eyes cut out and being killed. One world where he saved her via angel. Another world where He saved her via heart-attack of the leader. Any number of ways. This implies that a temporal God would know VAST NUMBERS of ways in which to save Zosia at the appropriate time...and he would know what potential ramifications would come from that salvation.
The entire point I want made on this section is that the "all-possible worlds" knowledge that God possessed INCLUDED his own actions (or inaction) at any given points in the respective realities with the various potential agents.
Is this point clear to you? Do you agree? I want to go REALLY slow to make sure that I'm understood.
Meph
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Yofu
05/14/01 8:20 PM
RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I'm with you so far...
I've actually been having some thoughts along similar lines - ie, involving the fact that for God to foreknow a future situation, he would also have "had to" foreknow his own state in that situation. There's an interesting angle on God calling reality into being by his presence somewhere in there...
-Yofu
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
05/14/01 9:49 PM
RE: RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
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Yo Theo-dudes,
I'm groov'n on this thread. Way cool stuff, as my friend "Shine" used to say (till Meph OUTTED HIM! poop). I'm still trying to appease an editor who has a death threat on my life if I don't honor certain already-passed deadlines, otherwise I'd dive into this juicy yummy theo-delicatesent hook-line-and sinker. For right now, I'd just say, Meph, youze gots alllll the right instincts.... Thats why I'm still holding out hope for you. (smile face smile face... someone remind me how to make those!!!).
Question for Meph: Do your "possible worlds" include MIGHT-COUNTERFACTUALS??? Propositions about what MIGHT or MIGHT not happen are either TRUE or FALSE -- Eternallyy!!! -- and hence would be known from eternity by an omniscient God (as MAYBES). With this provisio, Meph, I wholly agree (I think) with everything you've said so far.
Enjoying the brain power evidenced here!
Doc-from-a-distance
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
MrIndifference
05/14/01 11:11 PM
Clarification please
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"for God to foreknow a future situation, he would also have "had to" foreknow his own state in that situation."
When you are talking about Gods state of being, are you talking about the choices that He would have in a particular situation or the choices that he would make in that same situation. Maybe I am over simplifying this, but if you are talking about the choices that He would make, then He just gave us free will, but gave up His own. That leads us back to an off-kilter form of predestination. Instead of us being automitons, He would be one instead. Does this make sense?
MrIndifference :|
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
05/14/01 11:17 PM
RE: RE: RE: IDoM: Part Two--Did God Exhaustively Know His Own Possible Actions?
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Doc says: "(smile face smile face... someone remind me how to make those!!!)."
You are WAY FUNNY, Doc! Considering that you are such an intelligent person, it makes one giggle to think that you can't figure out the smiley face thing
It's a colon followed by a inverted parenthesis.
It's this -> : first followed by this -> )
Blessings
trosie
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