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|  Tigress Registered Member
 Date Joined Feb 2003 Total Posts : 1252 | Posted 2/27/2003 11:07 AM (GMT -6) |   | I just want to know, why does it matter whether or not a person believes that God is in complete control of every little thing? It doesn't affect a person's salvation in the least, does it? So, then, why all the fuss?
Tigress
The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them. -Psalm 34:7 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  PotOnWheel Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 9890 | Posted 2/27/2003 11:54 AM (GMT -6) |   | This writer describes how WE are in control of some things.
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/exact_freewill.htm
Concerning Free Will and Predestination, by St. John of Damascus
Concerning what is in our own power, that is, concerning Free-will.
The first enquiry involved in the consideration of free-will, that is, of what is in our own power, is whether anything is in our power: for there are many who deny this. The second is, what are the things that are in our power, and over what things do we have authority? The third is, what is the reason for which God Who created us endued us with free-will? So then we shall take up the first question, and firstly we shall prove that of those things which even our opponents grant, some are within our power. And let us proceed thus.
Of all the things that happen, the cause is said to be either God, or necessity, or fate, or nature, or chance, or accident. But God’s function has to do with essence and providence: necessity deals with the movement of things that ever keep to the same course: fate with the necessary accomplishment of the things it brings to pass (for fate itself implies necessity): nature with birth, growth, destruction, plants and animals; chance with what is rare and unexpected. For chance is defined as the meeting and concurrence of two causes, originating in choice but bringing to pass something other than what is natural: for example, if a man finds a treasure while digging a ditch: for the man who hid the treasure did not do so that the other might find it, nor did the finder dig with the purpose of finding the treasure: but the former hid it that he might take it away when he wished, and the other’s aim was to dig the ditch: whereas something happened quite different from what both had in view. Accident again deals with casual occurrences that take place among lifeless or irrational things, apart from nature and art. This then is their doctrine. Under which, then, of these categories are we to bring what happens through the agency of man, if indeed man is not the cause and beginning of action? for it would not be right to ascribe to God actions that are sometimes base and unjust: nor may we ascribe these to necessity, for they are not such as ever continue the same: nor to fate, for fate implies not possibility only but necessity: nor to nature, for nature’s province is animals and plants: nor to chance, for the actions of men are not rare and unexpected: nor to accident, for that is used in reference to the casual occurrences that take place in the world of lifeless and irrational things. We are left then with this fact, that the man who acts and makes is himself the author of his own works, and is a creature endowed with free-will.
Some things to think about.
In America the path we took involves many, many arguements between the followers of Jonathan Edwards (Christian History Mag. has an issue on him right now -- very interesting!) and John Wesley. Between these "two Johns" there is lots for us who follow to trip over.
But we must try. But I think it is also very good to get an "outside" perspective, like that of John of Damascus above, too.
Something to think about. | | Back to Top | | |
 |  geebob Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 94 | Posted 2/28/2003 2:43 PM (GMT -6) |   | Our faith isn't just a matter of salvation in the sense escaping damnation and gaining an eternal life. It's about how we view and love God.
Loving God to the best of our abilities means approving God (which is an understatement) since he is perfect. Now also take into consideration that our love for God is dependent upon his love for us, since "we love because he first loved us."
Consider Jesus' two greatest commandments. one is to love the Lord with all your strength, mind, heart, and spirit. The other is to love your neighbor as yourself.
So if you are a typical christian and you believe that some will be damned.
Now if you believe God controls everything than you believe that God controls everything, then you believe that it is God who is ultimately responsible for consigning that person to hell.
Now if you were such a person, damned from all eternity, would you approve of God? So the problem is this. If you approve of everything that God does and God reprobates some, do you really love your neighbor as yourself? If you love your neighbor as yourself, can you really approve of God's reprobation of them?
I will gladly pay you teusday for a hamburger today.
-Wimpy | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Laika Registered Member

Date Joined Mar 2003 Total Posts : 2433 | Posted 3/24/2003 2:24 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
I just want to know, why does it matter whether or not a person believes that God is in complete control of every little thing? It doesn't affect a person's salvation in the least, does it? So, then, why all the fuss?
It's a barrier to some people to believing in God. They're smart enough to realize that an all knowing, all powerful God, as defined by Calvin/Augustine, is responsible for all evil as well. And they reject that kind of a God.
_________________________ 1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  GregBoyd Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 1818 | Posted 3/24/2003 5:13 AM (GMT -6) |   | I think denying God's exhaustive control is a "big deal" for some because a) they get security from believing everything is going "as planned." b) they think a God who doesn't control everything is less glorious than a God who does. c) they think that affirming free will in people undermines salvation by grace alone. d) they are convinced the Bible teaches God controls everything and they want to strongly defend the Bible.
I obviously don't see the need for "a," and disagree with "b", "c" and "d".
Greg
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
 |  Newcomb Registered Member
 Date Joined Jul 2001 Total Posts : 116 | Posted 3/30/2003 5:18 AM (GMT -6) |   | Well put Doc. Two weeks ago we had friend over defending 5 point Calvinism. The issue of control came up and they insisted that God had planned everything before creation. They kept affirming "God is in control." And, of course, God selected who would be saved and who would not at that time also. I pointed out that sin was a violation of God's will. That was OK. Then I pointed out that if God had planned everything, then everything must be his will. That was OK too. When I pointed out that it cannot be God's will that you violate God's will, which would be the case in Calvinism, they finally hit the logical wall and admitted this was correct. It was absurd to believe this. I also pointed out the sprinkling magic dust called "sovereignty" on a contradictory idea doesn’t make it less contradictory. The odd thing is that while they felt comforted that God had chosen them before the foundations of the world, it didn’t bother them at all that their newly born grandchild might have been destined for hell by the act of omission by God to save him. “He’s God” seemed to be the answer for everything. You can turn off your brain and simply allow the pastor to pour in lofty ideas and rest assured you never need to question those ideas, which could result in feeling uncomfortable around your friends at church and around the pastor. The only thing that is sacrificed is intellectual integrity and truth.
"Neuk'em" | | Back to Top | | |
 |  S.B.G. Registered Member
 Date Joined Jan 2003 Total Posts : 143 | Posted 4/4/2003 10:45 AM (GMT -6) |   | | | |
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