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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:42 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
writerdad
01/14/01 10:20 PM
On God being the author of sin
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Greetings: I am not sure if this topic has been addressed so pardon me if it has...
I am interested in a philosopical answer as to why God is not the author of sin if one takes the view that reformed believers do. The reason I ask for a philosophical one is that when I have addressed this question to several reformed believers, they have always given me the same answer: The "Romans 9, who are you to talk back to God, o man" one. I do not wish to hear that one again and, besides, I would prefer an answer, which, it seems to me, quoting Romans 9 is not so much an answer as an excuse. Besides, in Romans 9 Paul is not even addressing that question and it seems to me when one takes a verse out of context and uses it to apply it to subject other than what the author is refering to, one is endanger of taking said verse out of the context in which it is intended. On a like note, it should be brought up that we all question God all the time. In fact, we would not be saved if we did not question God. I am sure all of us have, at one time, questioned his existance, where he was when tragedy struck, why doesn't he answer a certain prayer, etc. In fact, most of David's Psalms consist of "what are you doing, God?" So it seems that using Romans 9 to answer "why God is not the author of sin?," is more in line with "don't question these beliefs I have, they are of God."
Anyway, I am hoping for a philosophical reason for why God is not the author of sin if one takes the reformed view. Oh, what spured this is I was reading James White's book "A Potter's Freedom," and he says at one point in it that God doesn't see us down the corridor of history because God creates our history. It seemed to me that, logically, if someone is all powerful over his creation and plans the history his creation will take and what he wants done is always done and the creatures he makes can never not do, ultimately, what he desires them to do, than he has to be ultimately responsible for what they do. To me, it is akin to a scientist who clones a person, yet also has the power to make that clone do whatever he chooses that clone to do. If that clone does evil, the scientist is responsible. JOhn 17: 3 Harold
Oh, and one more brief note: nowhere in the Bible is the questioning of God condemned when it is done in an honest way. Even in Job, where God basically tells Job that he has no natural right to ask the questions he is asking, God never condemns him for questioning, so I think God is okay with the questions asked by those of us who do not understand how God can both be holy and not be able to sin and yet plan sin...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/14/01 10:30 PM
RE: On God being the author of sin
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S'up writerDad. Welcome aboard.
There's quite a bit on this topic on earlier threads. check out "Jacob/Esau and Romans" and "To Deny Freedom is to Deny Sin".
lot of us are new to this, so no problem hashing it over again.
I'm with ya on the topic. Causation is transitive. That is, if "A cause B, and B causes C, then A causes C." So, if God is the ultimate cause of a rapist, and the rapist causes a rape, God caused the rape.
the only thing that's made any sense to me on this topic has been the Open view. God creates agents who cause their own actions. he gives them the ability to be self-causing, but doesn't determine or even foreknow in a specific sense WHAT they will cause. So God is not responsible.
later
Skater
Shine 150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/16/01 12:29 AM
RE: On God being the author of sin
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Another problem with using Romans 9 when dealing with the issue of whether or not God is the author of sin, being that he preordaines everything, is that when one does this, one is assuming that ones viewpoint is true and then using Romans 9 to justify it. My point is that when one is asked how God is not the author of sin when he is suppose to preordain everything and a person responds with "who are you to talk back to God," or using Romans 9 to show that God does some things that we don't understand (which he does, of course), a person is assuming that their viewpoint is the correct biblical one. But assuming that your view is true is not proving that is true. What one has to do is find revelant verses that support your case, then come back and say, yes, I don't understand how this is, but I trust God on it. John 17:3 Harold
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
WarrenCRI
01/27/01 11:20 PM
RE: On God being the author of sin
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How is it that God is not the author of sin? What a question. It seems that we have two competing models being demonstrated to us, 1) man is enslaved to cause/effect and is powerless to thwart its restraint, 2) man is held accountable for his acts of sin and will be punished as being their author and authorizer.
I would say that regardless of your theological perspective, or even the lack thereof, one cannot deny either of these truths. Any given decision is the result of factors beyond our volitional control. Why did the chicken cross the road? If we could know perfectly the composition of the chicken's brain, its hardwiring, and the experiences it possesses which are passed through the processor, its software, we could know perfectly why, when, where and how the chicken crossed the road. We could construct the circumstances to cause it to cross at any given time or not at all with no visible strings attached.
In a theological structure one must account for both to be functional simultaneously and this is the rub. The Reformed would simply accept both as accurate; man is merely acting out a play written or decreed in eternity past and is being held accountable for his performance regardless of his powerlessness over his production. This is patently unjust thus giving rise to your question of how is it that God can be the director of this play and not be accountable for its production, to which the Reformed reply "who are you, oh man, to question God".
It seems the open theist would attempt to mitigate our enslavement to cause/effect by interjecting an ability of man to effect uncaused. This is not plausible nor possible given the evidences we possess of this material reality. Every given response had a cause which can be traced beyond an individual's volition. You did not choose your parents, your time of birth, your initial mental composition. These worked together to frame your perspective beyond anything you volitionally chose. Thus any given "choice" is being filtered through a matrix of constants formed by forces beyond your ability to modify or mitigate. These constants will, and not might, produce a fixed resolution which is easily predicted, just as 2+2. The only issue for us is one of ignorance, what are these constants and how do they interact within any given matrix. I would believe this information is not hidden from God therefore His ability to predict the future is nothing more than simple addition. His ability to modify or manipulate the future is nothing more than a subtle and obscure push of circumstance.
The idea of the open theist is, in my opinion, naive, (no offence). Even if SOME decisions are open to potential they are STILL controlled by this predetermined matrix of cause/effect through which we perceive and process all information for the production of a response. Now I am new to this theological construct so I may not be judging it fairly, if this is the case I would be pleased for someone to correct me if I am in error.
--Warren
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/28/01 12:05 AM
Sweet.
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Dear Warren,
Meph
PS: Welcome, man!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/28/01 3:21 AM
RE: RE: On God being the author of sin
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Warren: I would strongly disagree with one. I do not think man is enslaved to cause/effect and using the chicken crossing the road is, of course, a simplistic analogy(no offense intended). To compare us to animals denies the image that God created us in (his), with his given abilities to choose and be responsible for that choice. Again, the question is: how can God make us responsible if we must choose a certain way? Besides, I can think of many times in my own life and others I know where they choose to do something completely out of character and your assertion that if we could open up the chicken's brain and search it and know why is an assumption that you cannot prove. OF course, you can say it was predetermined, but then, you must prove such a thing by providing a theory that can account for every possible situation and why it would be determined (pretty daunting, I know). Regardless, if we were that determined, we would not even be having this conversation because it simply would not be an issue with us. It would seem to me that your idea that everything has a cause/effect that we are powerless is more of a matter belief than reality. John 17:3 Harold PS I believe there are many people in the world who are not ignorant and yet there still not wise...
A final point: why do children of alcoholics turn out differently? If each person is predetermined, by parents say, that one did not choose, why are they not all the same? You would say, perhaps that the personality they are born with (which they did not choose), but still, the fact is that there are those who, born into bad circumstances, with the same disadvantages as their sidings, are the only one who succeed, who do not become alcoholics. Why? It would seem that in your view we should become very good at predicting what people will do and should see, for instance, a drop in crime rate, people being able to better choose the correct jobs for themselves, etc. But people, by and large, are as unpredictable as ever. All it takes to cast doubt on your theory is one person to do something out of character. And that happens everyday...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
WarrenCRI
01/28/01 11:55 AM
RE: On God being the author of sin
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writerdad: I would strongly disagree with one. I do not think man is enslaved to cause/effect and using the chicken crossing the road is, of course, a simplistic analogy(no offense intended). To compare us to animals denies the image that God created us in (his), with his given abilities to choose and be responsible for that choice.
Warren: How is your "ability to choose" different than that of a chicken looking at a road? The fact that you are able to weigh a greater set of criterion when making your decision, to me, is not a relevant difference but only a matter of degree.
writerdad: Again, the question is: how can God make us responsible if we must choose a certain way?
Warren: Indeed, however to answer this question we must not mitigate the evidence we have around us.
writerdad: Besides, I can think of many times in my own life and others I know where they choose to do something completely out of character
Warren: I would point out that the choice to behave unnaturally was generated by a ridged set of factors and that when exploring the actual process of your choice we would find it to be nothing more than a simple addition process. In point of fact I would argue your hardwiring or your hardware or your brain's configuration is a static factor with only the input changing output. That time when you behaved oddly either had a large throughput of odd data or many small anomalies which reached critical mass resulting in an aberrant choice.
writerdad: and your assertion that if we could open up the chicken's brain and search it and know why is an assumption that you cannot prove. OF course, you can say it was predetermined, but then, you must prove such a thing by providing a theory that can account for every possible situation and why it would be determined (pretty daunting, I know).
Warren: Not at all. If A = A is an axiom, which I believe it is, then your mental configuration confronted with a given circumstance WILL produce the same result EVERY TIME. What you purpose is that the same "you" at a given point in time with the finite amount of information you possessed and the values you generated based upon that information, when faced with a circumstantial set COULD produce various results essentially arguing A ~ A. This is not logical nor demonstrated to us in material reality.
--Warren
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/28/01 9:50 PM
RE: RE: On God being the author of sin
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Warren: the point I was trying to make is this: if people really are programed, as you say, there should be a way to predict and chart such a thing. And people would act a certain way that would show it. Yet people do not. Your point is well taken, as a belief, but I do not believe it is one that can be proven beyond the faith you have in it.Second, animals do not have the moral capibility of humans, nor do they possess the brain capicity to make the decisions we do. We make decisions of the heart, decisions that go against all logic "programming" or for any valid reason. Of course you can say circumstances programmed it, but as I said before, for each circumstance, you must produce the evidence for that action being programmed. Otherwise, you are having faith that your theory is true. Look at it this way: you certainly can believe what you believe, but it will continue to be a matter of faith, because I am not seeing any of the "evidence" you say we must not mitigate. Most of what you have said centers around what you believe, not what you can proof with argument or evidence. Actually, I've faced the same situation many times in my life and I have acted differently many times. So I would simply disagree with you on that point. And I do not believe A=A holds in all human situations, so I reject your premise. HUmans are always going to be unpredictable and, as I said before, if your theory is true, you should be able to prove it through a study of the historical evidence. As I said, pretty daunting. Besides, I would differ between the brain, which is physical, and the mind, which the soul and seat of a human. One can measure the brain and body, but one can never measure the soul, or spirit of a person. The first four chapters of Beyond Death, by JP Moreland is a good place to start in this area.
Finally, I will end with a quote from Greg Kouhl called Freedom And Rationality:
Free will makes rationality possible. If there is no free will, then no one is capable os choosing to believe something because of good reasons. One could never adjudicate between a good idea and a bad one. He'd only believe what he does because he's been predetermined to do so. Arguments wouldn't matter, only prior determinations would matter.
That's why it's odd to hear someone try to argue for determinism. If he's right, then his conviction is not based on reasons-on the merits of the view itself-but on prior conditions that cause his belief. He's determined to believe in determinism.
Without freedom, there is no rationality. Every one of our thoughts, dispositions, and opinions would have been determined instead of being based on good reasons. That's why if there is no free will, no one would ever know it.
It would seem if we were all determined by cause/effect, you would not be arguing for me to believe your way, Warren, but you would simply want me to believe what I am believing, since that is what I should believe. John 17:3 3 Harold.
Of course, you would also know that the only real right and wrong in your belief is to not do what you are determined to do, which is, of course, impossible, so a person could never do wrong...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
01/28/01 10:41 PM
RE: RE: RE: On God being the author of sin
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Warren: I apologize for my last response, which came out a little confusing (I was typing and trying to supervise my children in getting them ready for bed).
A crucial point I was trying to make was for the reason I reject your reasoning (I believe I said I reject A=A. I do not so much think I reject it as believe it simply doesn't apply). I would agree with you and your cause/effect view if I believed that all we are is a brain and a body, as are chickens and other animals. But I do not. I believe that we were made in the image of God and have a spirit as well (or soul, some use mind, but I find that confusing), and, as such, that adds an extra variable into the equation. In John 3, Jesus describes the spirit of God as the wind, unpredictable. I believe that applies to the human person as well. Having the spirit God gave us adds an extra dimension to us that animals do not possess and, as such, we are in the image of our maker in this area as well. Therefore, this extra dimension is such as can never be measured or weighed and can never be counted on to be fully predictable. As such, it makes us as our Father in heaven is, beings of free will and choice. That is why I reject your view of cause/effect. I am curious, though: since you hold to that belief, do you believe there is a god and, if so, is it the Christian God, and (again), if so, how can you reconcil his judgment of us with the fact that, if we are determined, we are doing exactly what we should be doing and how would you answer my original question. John 17:3 Harold
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