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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:39 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 >>
BBBCanada
12/19/00 3:48 PM
OT and Trinity
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I am curious as to how those who fall under the Calvinistic rubric (especially) and also those in the house who are OT's see the doctrine of the Trinity as bearing on OT. I will provide a number of quotes, sufficient for the stated purpose of my question, but I think it would be more beneficial to actually read the text at www.brow.on.ca (I THINK they [Christus Victor Ministries] are going to make this a link people. I got the inside scoop). Referring to what Robert Brow and Clark Pinnock have stated in "Unbounded Love" in the chapter on the Trinity they write:
"Love, then, is not just something that God decides to do, not just an occasional attribute. Loving is what characterizes God essentially -as a dynamic livingness, a divine circling and relating. God is not a solitary monarch but a tripersonal mystery of love. God is a fellowship of persons, a relational being, OPEN TO THE JOY AND PAIN OF THE WORLD. This model of God in Christian faith helps us understand the purpose of creation. God creates in order to create love and relationships, because he DELIGHTS TO HEAR in the love of finite persons an echo of the love that constitutes his own reality. [For some introduction, see Alister E. McGrath, Understanding the Trinity (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 1988).]"
and later
"The Trinity is the God who grounds other-affirming love, for whom giving and receiving love is of the essence. God is not a distant monarch, a supreme will to power, BUT ONE WHOSE BEING IS TO GIVE AND RECIEVE LOVE."
and further down
"The Trinity means that God, though self-sufficient in divine fullness, is capable of creating and OPENING UP TO CREATION IN OVERFLOWING LOVE. Though he does not strictly need the world, he loves it. As a relational being, God delights to invite creatures into fellowship. He has created a dynamic world with real value out of the abundance of his own inner richness. It delighted God to make a world like ours, a world with free agents, capable of choice, because this is the sort of world in which loving community can occur, A WORLD THAT CAN ECHO BACK GOD'S OWN SOCIAL LIFE (emphasis mine). To make such a world was risky, but this world is a place that BRINGS PLEASURE TO GOD-a world not wholly determined by him, but one that can PROVIDE OCCASIONS OF MEANINGFUL INTERACTION AND INVOLVEMENT.
Under no necessity to do so, God freely created a world with real significance and accepted the risks involved in entering into relationship with it. Genesis says God found the creation good because God is dynamic and open. He loves a creation that is open like this one. The Trinity can be likened to a dance that expresses itself by inviting others to join in as new partners. This is what the Greek theologians meant when they declared "deification" to be the goal of human life."
and even further
"We believe in one God who is not solitary but a loving communion marked by overflowing life. What stands at the center of the universe is shared life. As perfect sociality, God embodies qualities of mutuality, reciprocity, and cooperation. This is fundamental to creative love theism. It underlies our major concerns: God is inclusive love, more like a loving parent than a judge. God's will from the foundation of the world has been to share his life with the human race in the creation of community."
This, my friends, smacks not of an impassive, immutable God of Western theology, but of the biblical God of Creation who interacts with his creatures understood in the differing theologies of Catholic and Orthodox Christianity. Let me know.
Brandon P.S.
Another angle yet to be considered.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
12/20/00 8:45 PM
RE: OT and Trinity
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Thanks for the insight BBB. I think the heart of the difference between Open Theists/ some Arminians and Calvinist/most Classical Theists is a vision of what the Triune God is like. Check out Boyd/ Lamb's different reading of Romans 9 on the thread "Does God create People to Send to Hell?" Behind the two powerful exegetical treatments is a different vision of what is praiseworthy. I think Open Theists and other Arminians put unbounded love in the center. I suspect Calvinists and some others put power in the center. (I can see certain Calvinists cringe as I write this. Sorry. But its my honest gut intuition.) This might explain why I can't understand Lion-Lamb who finds a God who may very well have predestined my baby boy to hell already (from all eternity!) "altogether lovely." (See the honest exchange between Lion and me on that same thread). I can see
FEARING a being who has the POWER and WILL to do that -- and calling himn "altogether lovely" because he commands us too, on pain of hell. But I can't pretend to understand actually BELIEVING IT.
I love coming to understand other humans. It's one of my greatest joys. It's why I want to understand Calvinists. But its frustrating. Lion-Lamb tried. Are there any other Calvinists out there who can try to enlighten me? Do you REALLY believe God is "all glorious" and "altogether lovely" when you also believe he decrees the endless torment of multitudes he could save, if he wanted? REALLY? Or is it a profession of faith done out of sheer obedience, AGAINST your moral intuitions? Another way of asking it is this: Do Open Theists and Calvinist have different intuitions about "goodness" and "beauty" and "lovliness" as it pertains to God. Or do they have the same intuitions -- (viz. both find this aspect of this picture of God horrifying) -- but have different responses to it. One obeys, despite the moral intuition. The other insistence this CAN'T be what God commands, because they follow their moral intuition?
I want to understand. Really.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/20/00 9:30 PM
RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Beso,
I'm truly disappointed that I have not had any success in assisting you to understand. I want to try once more, briefly.
A cartoon in the Sunday comics section, from some months ago, fits our scenario rather well. Do you ever read Family Circus? I don't remember if the children in the cartoon have names. Perhaps they do, but that's beside the point I want to make.
Picture this.
A girl is out in the front lawn playing with her brother. An ambulance races by, siren blaring.
The boy said, "Oh! Oh! I'm so sad. Somebody got hurt real bad!"
His sisten responded, "Oh! I'm so happy! Somebody is about to receive help!"
You're like the boy. You're fastened upon the horror of God's wrath.
I'm like the girl. I'm rejoicing in God's salvation.
Does it help?
I know. I've been told repeatedly that I have an optimistic slant, for I always see the glass half-filled, not half-empty. But hey! I've been captured by God's grace!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
12/21/00 3:59 PM
RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Few things.
1. Doctrines cannot be taken in isolation. I think this is pretty obvious. Doctrines affect each other. This is one of the reasons that those who hold to a more Calvinistic understanding of God are passioned about their position. OT calls into question some major aspects of the classical view of God, his immutability, impassiveness, etc. When you start questioning these aspects, (or affirming OTV's) then others seem to be called into question as well. This goes for OT as well.
2. If God, as Trinity, creates a world in which the social aspects of God are reflected in his creation, a world where God interacts and is meaningfully involved with his creation, this will have some bearing on other classical doctrines of God as well. This is why (me thinks) that exegesis and systematic theology cannot be taken in isolation either. They need to work together as well. So with all the exegesis where "things" seem more ambiguous, systematic theology can help. Agreeing with Greg, the OV will be won not primarily on the basis of philosophy (look at some of the threads on this site with debates about conditional subjunctives, etc. This doesn't mean that one is not "right" and the other is not "wrong", it's just that it seems to be more ambiguous on that front) but on the biblical front, both exegetically and systematically.
3. Lion-Lamb said to beso:
"You're fastened upon the horror of God's wrath. I'm like the girl. I'm rejoicing in God's salvation."
I don't think beso did/does this. Beso also asked in relation to the openness of God to *experience joy, pain, involvement, and interaction with his creation*:
"Do Open Theists and Calvinists have different intuitions about "goodness" and "beauty" and "lovliness" as it pertains to God."
This is not an example of concentrating on optimistic or pessimisstic sides of God. The whole point of my post was to point out a God who very much involves himself with us based on the doctrine of the Trinity which echos back into creation. This powerfully supporst the OV. That seems to me, to be the point that beso was driving at.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/21/00 4:25 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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I think you missed both my theological point and the point of my illustration.
Oh well. . . .
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BBBCanada
12/21/00 6:23 PM
OT and Trinity
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I understand that you say that beso concentrates on the more pessimisstic side of God than on the more "glorious" side. However, my point was to say beso was *also* talking about my point as well from my first post. The Trinity reflects a God who is involved with his creation.
Brandon
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
beso
12/22/00 1:36 AM
RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Lion, about the "boy-girl cartoon analogy": it definitely does NOT help. But it does get to the core of our issue.
I'm supposed to be "happy" that I am elected when my baby boy was "passed over"? I'm suppose to delight in the joy of my salvation and be in love with God who COULD HAVE choosen my boy, but just DIDN'T. More than anything else, to be brutally honest (I mean nothing personal by this Lion), but Calvinism strikes me as selfish. (I know I "just don't get it" -- but I've been trying).
I read Piper's book last year on Delighting in God (or whatever it was called) and I -- well, I lied -- I couldn't finish the thing. I got ill. It struck me like a party among the elect who just rejoice over their own election and praise God for how beautiful he is for saving THEM -- pretending their wasn't this "dark side." "I find such joy in the unfathomable beauty of God who saved me." Wonderful. Now what about my baby boy... or your daughter, or spouse, or whoever?
What if a ship was sinking. 1,000 people were going to drown, but a passerby ship came just in time. The capitan had plenty of room and all the means of saving all of them. But he "sovereignly" chose to save only 30, or 300 -- and he chose them individually. Indeed, he chose some parents, but refused their children. Would you expect any of these people to "praise" the capitan for his love -- esp. the parents of the dead children? Indeed, wouldn't you judge this crowd as being profoundly selfish if they just danced all the way home around the capitan because of his great love?
If multitudes are predestined from the foundation of the world, I can't find any joy in the fact that I wasn't one of them. It feels positively wrong to do so.
sorry
bet you're glad we aren't married (LOL)
ps. I'd have very different sentiments if the Capitan tried as hard as he could to save somebody, but the person just refused. And THAT, as I understand it, is the difference between ARmininianism nad Open theism, on the one hand, and Calvinism, on the other.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/22/00 7:43 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Beso,
Remember what God's mercy and grace are. To receive God's mercy is not to receive what I properly deserve, namely God's eternal wrath. To receive his grace is to receive what I properly do not deserve, namely God's eternal salvation. Do you believe and understand this?
I am powerless to help you, Beso. Anything further that I might want to say to you about your stumbling over the biblical portrayal of God's mercy and grace would best be said away from a public forum. But this is a public forum, and I don't know you. So, our exchange on what sickens you about God's electing mercy and grace sadly comes to an end.
I am praying for you, Beso, that the Lord God will show to you the glorious and eternal preciousness of his electing mercy and grace.
I'm sad to have to end this particular exchange.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Ecclesiastes5_2
12/22/00 7:48 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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LL.....................U B nice!! Baaaaaaaaaad LL Baaaaaaaaaaad~!~
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TheOpenTheist
12/22/00 8:55 AM
Is God's wrath eternal?
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Lion-Lamb said
"To receive God's mercy is not to receive what I properly deserve, namely God's eternal wrath."
What do you mean when you refer to "God's eternal wrath"?
The word "eternal" is generally used to portray God as timeless and changeless. If God really has "eternal wrath" then wouldn't that mean that those persons He exercises His wrath on must have always existed along with God? In other words, I'm getting the impression that you're promoting a necessitarian view of God when you talk of God's "eternal wrath"?
I know that there are some determinists (Augustine and perhaps Piper) who believe that God must damn some people to Hell to make His character fully manifest (the principle of plenitude). You don't believe that, do you?
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
TestWaters
12/22/00 9:07 AM
RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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Lion-Lamb said she (right gender?) left this thread. I need to take that as reliable unless I see otherwise.
You raise a good question about God's wrath, but I think the time-related dichotomy is unnecessary. God's eternal wrath is part of His eternal justice. Wrath does not need an object to exist. In other words, God's wrath against man became active in the garden. It had no human object 'until' then. Now, of course, that begs the question of foreknowledge of the exact events in the garden. It follows (not my argument) that if God foreknew exactly each event in the garden His wrath may or may not have pre-dated the event.
So in either case, the person does not need to be eternal for the wrath to be eternal.
Does that make any sense?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TheOpenTheist
12/22/00 9:40 AM
RE: RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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TestWaters said
"God's eternal wrath is part of His eternal justice. Wrath does not need an object to exist."
Wrath does not need an object to exist!?
God's wrath is portrayed as a response to man's wickedness in the Bible.
Exodus 15:7 And in the greatness of Your excellence You have overthrown those who rose against You; You sent forth Your wrath; It consumed them like stubble.
Exodus 32:10-12 "Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation." 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: "LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 "Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, 'He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people.
Numbers 11:33 But while the meat [was] still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.
Deuteronomy 9:7-8,22 " Remember! Do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day that you departed from the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the LORD. 8 "Also in Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry [enough] with you to have destroyed you. 22 " Also at Taberah and Massah and Kibroth Hattaavah you provoked the LORD to wrath.
2 Kings 22:13 "Go, inquire of the LORD for me, for the people and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that has been found; for great [is] the wrath of the LORD that is aroused against us, because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."
I believe that God's wrath MUST have an evil object (specifically evil people or angels) to be poured out on. If that is the case, then their is no wrath prior to the fall, since the Trinitarian fellowship that existed before the entrance of sin was perfect.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Lion-Lamb
12/22/00 9:48 AM
RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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Matthew 25:46--“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TestWaters
12/22/00 9:58 AM
RE: RE: RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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As I reread the dictionary definition of wrath--you are probably right. Our word wrath certainly seems to have an active component to it. However, my thinking was more theoretical--as long as God could conceive of evil existing, it raised something in him that was the exact same attribute that lead to wrath as an action. So while I stand corrected in my use of words, it is important to remember that justice without the desire to respond to injustice is meaningless. What was my point? I'm not quite sure .
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TheOpenTheist
12/22/00 1:31 PM
RE: RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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Lion
By eternal I mean the timeless concept of eternity that is attributed to God by classical theists. The passage you quoted has eternal life or punishment starting at a point in the future. The idea of timelessness is not in view in Matt 25:46 (although some believe that the redeemed will exist in some kind of timeless state after the resurrection).
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
beso
12/22/00 1:56 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Lion says: "I am praying for you, Beso, that the Lord God will show to you the glorious and eternal preciousness of his electing mercy and grace."
To me, not my boy. Precious indeed.
I appreciate the prayers. I will return the favor.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/22/00 6:11 PM
RE: RE: RE: Is God's wrath eternal?
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My quotation of Matthew 25:46 was intended to direct your attention to that biblical text as an indicator of what I meant by eternal wrath. I used it as a synonym for eternal punishment.
You have engaged considerable speculation about a simple and common expression that has been in Christian conventional speech for a long time. I trust this clears up your speculation as to what I meant. It's really not complex. From heaven, God already reveals his wrath against all human unrighteousness. His wrath shall be forever, that is eternally, upon all who persist in their unrighteousness. This aspect of God's wrath is called eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/22/00 10:58 PM
RE: OT and Trinity
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LL wrote:
From heaven, God already reveals his wrath against all human unrighteousness.
*I'm wondering, how, if God is revealing his wrath against human unrighteousness, he can do that before the humans are unrighteous?
I agree there was no wrath before the fall. Wrath is subsequent to persistent blashpemy.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
12/22/00 11:01 PM
RE: RE: OT and Trinity
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Read Romans 1:18-32.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
springs
(Forum Moderator)
12/22/00 11:28 PM
RE: OT and Trinity
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This is a terrific thread!
Thanks BBBC for the web link. I hope I get a chance to check it out when I get back to town. Thanks too for those excerpts. Good stuff.
You in combination with Beso and TheOpenTheist made for quite a read.
Thanks to you all.
And now I am off to the great white north. A whole week in the deep
quiet of the snowy wood.
I leave you with this tune
Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24 (instrumental)
It's song number 8 on the CD entitled 'Christmas eve and other stories' by the Trans Siberian Orchestra
God rest ye merry gentlemen
let nothing you dismay
springs
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