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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 6:32 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Shine150
02/10/01 2:24 PM
Responses to Ware's God's Lesser Glory : Gen 18:20-21
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Hello Homie Tribe.
i just finished reading Bruce Ware's oddly titled anti-openness (mostly anti-Boyd) book, God's Lesser Glory. Since this discussion board is largely about openness issues, I thought it might be fun to invite some responses to this work. Check out the book.
I'll start the fun by re-posting a master-piece i just finished on the anthropomorophic thread. of course i get a wee bit sarcastic, but this stuff is too serious to take seriously. so dont' forget to giggle, especially if you feel like getting mad.
As i see it, Bruce Ware is truly comical when he takes Doc to task on Gen. 18.20-21. (pages 75ff, God's Lesser Glory). The Lord says here he was going to "go down to Sodom and Gehmorrah to see if they have done according to their outcry." Dr. Ware argues that if Boyd is going to take the "searching the heart" verses in the Bible literal,(silly silly Boyd) he ought to take this literal as well.
(75ff).
Wonderful logic.
like, couldn't you argue this with anyone who took ANYTHING in the Bible literal. "Since you take the resurrection literally, you should think God literally has to go down and find things out." NOT.
but the wildest thing is that Ware seems to naively think that HE knows what the verse means, and its not a problem for him? only open theists have to explain this passage.
tragically, Dr. Ware doesn't share this great insight with the reader. he doesn't reconcile the verse with his Calvinistic hermenuetics. (viz. if it doesn't mean what it says, what DOES it mean?) What he IS sure of is what verse does NOT mean. And it certainly CAN'T mean what it suggests. just like the "change your mind" and "God regrets" passages can't mean what they suggest. We KNOW God is omnipresent, and we know what this means, so we CAN'T ACCEPT that God in any sense "goes down" to find things out. (just like they KNOW what omnscience means, so they KNOW God can't mean he thought something MIGHT happen [e.g. Ex. 13:17).
Party animals, you gotta love this exegetical method. wHAT Skater boy (ME) would rather suggest is this:
Rather than ASSUME we already know what God's omnipresence and omniscience entail, why not LET THE VERSE TELL US. Novel idea. Sola Scriptura even! And maybe, just maybe, we might learn something we DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW. Is there possibly a sense in which God can "go down" "to see" what is going on? (after all, homies, he's speaking in theophany form here). Does God's "omnipresence" mean that God MUST (by metaphysical necessity???) be all places at all times (sewage pipes, hell, strip clubs)?
It is TRULY AMAZING how much Ware and company ALREADY KNOW about God before they need to interprete (and re-interpret) the Bible. Good thing too, cuz the Bible sure has a LOT of screwed up theology we need their help correcting. If it weren't for professionals like Ware, we might actually conclude
*God does search hearts"
*God does change his mind"
*God does regret"
*God really hates sin and loves righteousness"
* God experiences surprise"
* God in some sense does "go down" to in some sense check things out.
Thank you professionals, esp. Ware. I can now know the God of a GREATER GLORY -- omni omni omni of classical theology -- instead of God's LESSER glory -- the one revealed in Scripture to us simpletons.
Having too much fun
so now i gotta run
til i shine at 150.
Who else has read this masterpiece? What'ya think.,?
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
writerdad
02/11/01 8:07 AM
RE: Responses to Ware's God's Lesser Glory : Gen 18:20-21
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Shine 150: I am just finishing up Ware's book. As with Geisler's book (I must give due to Ware, his book was, at least, much more focused), the bark is much worse than the bite. One of the things you learn when reading his book is that you have to believe something going in if you want to come out the other side with your beliefs intact. This is particularly true in the chapter "proving" God's comprehendsive knowledge of all things (as he puts it) and his dealings with the Isaiah 40 chapters (it reminds me of Calvin stating on Genesis chapter 6 that it can't say that God repents because, well, God can't repent...well, excuse me for not knowing that. I thought us Christians were suppose to let the Bible tell us what God can and cannot do). Further, his chapter on openness prayer is so bad to almost be useless. His book is basically an assumption on many things about what he conceives the open view to be.
Finally, it does bother me that Ware acts as if he were an arminian as opposed to the calvinist that he is, because calvinists, believing that they do that God determines our history, don't, it would seem, strictly believe that God knows all history, but rather that he determined our history, and one, I think, could effectively paint that that isn't exactly the same as knowing in the sense that most people think of knowledge of history as seeing it unfold ahead of time, not determining how it unfolds. Regardless, I find Ware's book a little deceiving because he takes the tact of avoiding mentioning his calvinist beliefs when dealing with God's foreknowledge and does not admit to the fact that the reason many do not accept calvinist views of God's foreknowledge is because there are more problems with it than either of the views he doesn't hold to.
I am glad though for his book. Makes me realize each day that I need to hold to the scripture as much as possible, and not a theologians view of it. John 17:3 Harold
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