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Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:09 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Aslan777
12/27/00 11:36 PM
Newby greetings and question
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Hi Greg and fellow-travelers. Great site, very informative discussions. Read Openness and several other books with great interest. OV answers some of my questions, but also presents some other brick-wall problems for me. It seems no matter how you frame the discussion, there are always problems with each view.
Predictive prophecy is a big one.
It seems to me the OV gets into Calvinist puppet-string territory in order to account for specific predictive prophecy. In the case where the prophecy foretold bad stuff, this gets back into God as the cause of evil.
On the subject of time, could it be that God exists outside time, but in order to interact with his time-bound creation (stooping to our weakness), He voluntarily limits himself to dealing with us on a sequential basis, just as in the incarnation He self-limited? Then in the case of predictive prophecy, does He sometimes peek?
Be gentle, it's my first time. :^)
ps, any date for Greg's Problem of Evil book?
John
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
GregBoyd
12/28/00 12:34 AM
RE: Newby greetings and question
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"Be gentle, it's my first time."
You're a riot Aslan. Welcome aboard.
Question: How does God know what NOT to know to "limit himself"? How does he know what TO know -- e.g. when he "peeks" -- unless he first knows it all? And what do you gain by claiming God limits himself in this way?
On the issue of predestined evil acts -- cannot God predestine the EVENT without predestining who specifically does it?
On Satan and the Problem of Evil, due date is August, 2001... God willing, and other variables cooperating.
Blessings
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/28/00 1:19 AM
Somebody's got to do the bad stuff!
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John-
God knew you'd sign up for this site; we've been waiting for you! (Just kidding.) Seriously, welcome aboard. I've been around for a month and can tell you that all the members are gentlemen/ladies and great conversationalists.
I'd like to ditto your post. I'm ready to jump in to OT with both feet when I find a way to "settle in" comfortably to an understanding of predictive prophecy. Haven't quite found it yet.
Greg answered you: "On the issue of predestined evil acts -- cannot God predestine the EVENT without predestining who specifically does it?" But Greg, what's the difference? Somebody has to do the bad stuff! By predicting it at all God has confirmed "somebody's" sin, hasn't he?
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
12/28/00 8:08 PM
RE: Somebody's got to do the bad stuff!
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Oh you're so close TGB! Let's see if I can bring you home.
I submit that God can predestine an evil deed -- the crucifixion -- without predestining the individuals who will carry it out. You ask, " what's the difference? Somebody has to do the bad stuff! By predicting it at all God has confirmed "somebody's" sin, hasn't he?"
Tom, insurance agents predict that 14%to 15% of all teenagers will total their cars this year (but they cannot tell which ones). Does this make them responsible for any one of these car wrecks? Not at all.
So too, if God knew that at time x in situation y 8% of the fallen human population would have developed the sort of character that they would put an innocent Jew (Jesus) to death, is God responsible for THEIR SINFUL CHARACTER and the ACTION that flows from it when he comes into this environment and allows them to do what they want?
Why is THIS perspective any different than the general teaching that what sinners intend for evil, God intends for good. He turns even human beings wrath to his advantage. He uses rebel free agents evil to his own advantage. God is saying, "you want to sin? Fine, sin this way." And the "way" turns against all sin and furthers the kingdom of God.
This demonstrates how infinitely wise God is. But it doesn't make God responsible for the evil he knows people will do.
Come back at me. (But know that I sometimes can't answer right away).
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
12/29/00 4:28 AM
RE: RE: Somebody's got to do the bad stuff!
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Greg-
Thanks for answering at such a busy time of the year. I get your point.
I still have a thousand other questions to ask regarding the OV, but what is probably best to do is to wait until I get my most recent book order in. I’ll be in Orlando in three weeks for a Teen Challenge Orientation (we’re starting a Center here in Beirut) and I’m having a few books sent to me there, among them your God of the Possible. The only thing I’ve read thus far is The Openness of Godby Pinnock et. al. and Sanders’ The God Who Risks.. I was convinced of a good bit, but walked away with lots of unanswered questions.
What this will boil down to for me I think is the OV of predictive prophecy. How is it God can predict future acts of free will (the naming of Cyrus) or events which depend so entirely upon unknown acts of free will (God telling Abraham “Surely your descendents will spend 450 years as slaves in Egypt”)?
On a personal note unrelated to the OV, I’ve also ordered your Oneness Pentecostals. This forum is not the place for me to inquire, but as a Trinitarian Pentecostal myself (with Oneness folk around) I’d be very interested in knowing more about your own journey. Is there much autobiography in Oneness? Perhaps sometime offline I might drop you a note if you wouldn’t mind.
Happy New Year!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
GregBoyd
01/01/01 12:50 PM
RE: RE: RE: Somebody's got to do the bad stuff!
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Hello Tom,
Give "God of the Possible" a thorough read and get back to us. I personally think I address the prophecy issue a bit more effectively than Sanders in God who Risks. Let me know.
Regarding the Oneness deal, this discussion board can go whereever you want it to go .It isn't limited to open theism material. So if you want to talk Oneness, bring it on. maybe there are other ex-Oneness people out there.
blessings in Florida.
Greg
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/10/01 2:45 PM
RE: Somebody's got to do the bad stuff!
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Tom,
One thing to keep in mind is that God is not limited to predicting the future, He also acts in history. Reformed Theology has traditionally taught that God knows everything because He determines everything and, consequently, has argued against the Open View by saying if He doesn't know everything than He determines nothing. Now, clearly, if we understand our interaction with reality to parallel, in some sense, God's interaction with it, than we can see that while we can predict some things are going to happen apart from any act of ours, we also act to bring some things about. Can we ascribe any less ability to God? Obviously not.
In regard to delivering Israel out of Egypt and the naming of Cyrus, these would appear to be actions on the part of God not dependent on any predictive ability.
In the Lamb
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