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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 5:01 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message Go To Page 2 3 4 >>
GregBoyd
01/10/01 11:26 PM
For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Hello All
Hope you are enjoying the dialogues. I certainly am.
Over the last several weeks a number of people have told me that they enjoy "listening in" on the discussions on this web site, but they don't feel "qualified" to participate. They feel the discussions are "over their head."
Now, I truly enjoy the more technical theological discussions that take place on this site among people who clearly have some theological training as well as among others. I encourage more of it. There's not a lot of places you can go to get that level of discourse among people who are engaged, informed and passionate (sometimes maybe TOO passionate) about the same topics you are. At the same time, I want to strongly encourage EVERYBODY who has a thought on matters related to the topics of this web site to pipe in. SO...
I am proposing that THIS THREAD be reserved for non-theologians who like to talk theology at a STREET LEVEL. If theologically trained people want to comment on topics here, do it in SHORT, NON-TECHNICAL, STRAIGHT FORWARD, COMMON LANGAUAGE postings -- or better yet, do it on a different thread.
Here's an initial question: What do you think of the debates that you've read on this site? Which positions or participants did you feel made strong cases, and why? Which positions or participants did you think made weak arguments, and why?
If you have different topics, feel free. Have fun.
Keep it simple.
Greg
ps. Trosie, Springer, others... I want to hear from you.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BabyDi100900
01/10/01 11:28 PM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Thanks, Greg, I needed this invite as I was just feeling inadequate about the God and His tests post I just did.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/11/01 12:35 AM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Hi Greg and everyone:
Since you invited me to share I will take advantage of this invitation. There has actually been something that I have been wondering, and the more I read the conflicting arguments the more perplexed I become. Before I realized that I could have a personal relationship with Christ, I never believed in a place called "hell". I was Catholic so I could buy into the purgatory thing but could never concede on the idea of an actual hell. I could never come to accept that a loving God would send ANYONE to suffer for ETERNITY. I guess I was a bit warped but that was my view until I actually started to read the Bible. The reason I bring this up is because what turned me over to the Open View Theory was the idea that God doesn't know what we will choose until we actually make the decision. I agree with this view and believe God HOPES we will chose Him but leaves that for each person. I get perplexed by the people who say that God already knows who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. It boggles my mind that people can actually accept the thought that God has an elect group of people whom He has chosen. This idea to me feels the same as the "hell" issue I used to struggle with. I can't figure how Christians can feel comfortable saying that God knows ALL that is to be yet still creates people who He knows will end up in hell. This TRULY does not compute in my brain for a loving God. What I have found through reading these various threads is that for every Bible passage that supports one side, there is another passage that can be said to support the other. I guess for me it gets down to looking at the person of Jesus. The ultimate thing is that He came so that we ALL may have eternal life, (not just an elect group!)
I absolutely LOVE reading all the postings! I appreciate the great minds behind these postings. Reading the various threads and following the discussions has helped me to stay on my toes and keeps my mind open to God to reveal His truths to me.
Thanks to all of you
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/11/01 12:44 AM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Dear Doc,
Interesting. Perhaps necessary, but still very interesting...
Going along with the flow,
Mephi2K
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/11/01 7:05 AM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Here's my issue with God "changing" His mind... How can I be sure He won't change His mind about letting us mere mortals into heaven?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/11/01 11:14 AM
RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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might-be-don, just because God changes his mind about some things doesn't mean he can or will change his mind about all things. He promised "whoever believes" will be saved. He's good for his word.
on another note: testmony time: anybody else out there have there life changed by this Open theism stuff? Mine has, big time. I mean wow! I'm fueled, turbo charged, cranked. It fits. It makes sense. It makes God come alive.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/11/01 11:30 AM
RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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I guess my problem is... how do I decide which things are open today for God to change His mind about?
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/11/01 12:28 PM
RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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might-be-don wrote:
Here's my issue with God "changing" His mind... How can I be sure He won't change His mind about letting us mere mortals into heaven?
The Cross!!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Archibaldo
01/11/01 12:39 PM
Simple answer
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Hello board,
Here is my simple answer to this very vital and important question.
"I guess my problem is... how do i which things are open
today for God to change His mind about?"
My most simplistic answer, the Bible. The Bible gives you God's Word, and shows you His character. His character won't change, and He will always be faithful to that which he has promised. He has promised that those who believe, will be saved. Therefore, we know that is true, always.
Signing out for the first time,
Archy
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TheOpenTheist
01/11/01 1:15 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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If you're in the Body God will do what He said He would do.
Ephesians 1:4-6
He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
When God says that we are "adopted" He means it. What does it mean to be adopted? Read this to find out. The destiny of those in the Body is not open to change .
TheOpenTheist
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
non-theo-techie
01/11/01 5:26 PM
RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Hi,
I'm a newbie hear, and I love the idea of this new thread. Nice to get away from the super-head discussions. This seems more real.
I'd like to address the issue of an "all loving" God who could send or allow some people to go to hell. I bought into this for a long time mostly influenced by my mother. She would say, "if all those people are going to hell, then it must not be too bad of a place." I agreed with her for a long time. It wasn't until after I made my committment to Jesus that I realized that she was wrong. I now believe that without heaven there can't be hell. Just like there is no good without evil and a whole host of things like that. I learned in my study of the old testament that God is Just. I feel that that is why hell exists. He expects us to follow him and when we don't hell is the result. Love is an attribute of God, but we/I as a parent don't look
"all loving" when I discipline my children. We have to look at the big picture. True loving expression involves pain when we need to discipline or execute justice.
non-theo-techie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
non-theo-techie
01/11/01 5:35 PM
RE: Simple answer
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Why is it such a problem if God should change his mind? If he does does that change God? I agree with you Archy, the Bible gives us a good idea as to the character of God and his plan for our lives. I think the fact that God can change his mind is a wonderful thing. It gives me a chance to intercede. Isn't that what He wants me to do?
-ntt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
acts9_12out
01/11/01 6:44 PM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Hey Don,
There are certain things that God has predestined. Certain does not equal everything. For instance, we find that God predestined Herod, Pilate and the crowd to crucify Christ (Acts 2:23, 4:27,28). Christ freely went to the cross, but God predestined the method by which Christ would be sacrificed. Now, when did God predestine Herod, Pilate and the crowd? From before the foundation of the world? Probably not. In fact, if God decided to use the crowd just fifteen minutes before they had to make their decison between Christ and Barabbas (Mark 15:6-15), they were still predestined by God.
God tells us exactly how He foreknows and predestines things. In Isaiah 46:9-11, He "declares" the end from the beginning. This is different from "knowing" the end from the beginning. According to Isaiah 46, those things that He predetines, He foreknows the future in those areas because He will make them happen, He will do them. Take for instance, the Revelation. How can God predict those things? Does He look into the future and see the Revelation completed? No. At God's appointed time, He will cause the events described in Revelation to come to pass. He will do them.
As for your salvation, I agree that Ephesians 1 shows that the body of Christ are predestined to be Holy and Blameless before Him in love. That is secure. We find that Ephesians 1:14 with 4:30 shows that we, as the body of Christ, are sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. We are secure. God also lays out how He changes His mind concerning individuals and nations in the OT. Read Jeremaih 18 and Ezekiel 18.
In Christ, --Acts9_12Out
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Plebe
01/12/01 12:07 AM
RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Great Thread!!!
Thanks Doc!
It sure was good to hear from Trosie again. And we have lots of new
people! yeah.
and no lion roaming around seeking who he may devour.
God bless the profs.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/12/01 1:26 AM
RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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I'd like to respond to non-theo-techie's hell statement. If people chose to reject God, they reject reality itself. they're living a dream which in the end becomes a nightmare. But i could never make sense of God creating people he knew for sure where going to be damned -- until i came in contact with the open view. This was like the main thing that really kept me questioning Christianity.
but i wonder now if maybe hell isn't annihilation, like some believe. why wouldn't God just extinguish rebells? why keep them suffering forever? the Bible does say "the wages of sin are death" and God doesn't want any to "perish." I'm not saying i believe this, but it makes sense.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/12/01 6:57 AM
For Non-Theologians ONLY - Changing His mind
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Acts9_12Out,
Just for the record, I have no fear of God changing His mind about salvation. Greg Boyd mentioned in another post about his early dealings with Calvinism, I'm one of the guy's that pushed him toward Calvinism. I'm intrigued by the Open View and am trying to understand the implications of God changing His mind.
God said that He would destroy the folks, but "changed" His mind.
God said there would be a time of tribulation in the end times, what if He changes His mind about that? Jimmy Bob prays tomorrow that God wouldn't allow that and God repents of the destruction He was going to allow.
Or would you say that God doesn't change His mind anymore because the bible is complete ? Do we not have any more prophets that might proclaim the destruction of Philadelphia, PA, USA ? Which I take it is something God might be open to changing His mind about.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Shine150
01/12/01 10:30 AM
RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Heres what i like about this thread. plebe made mention of the fact that on this thread there's "no lion roaming around seeking who he may devour." I got into one of the heady threads, made a critique which i thought was perfectly valid if not brilliant and i got devoured big time. A lion said, "if you don't have the patience to [try to understand] and have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than your terse dismissiveness, may I suggest you restrain from saying anything." WELL EXCUSE ME! and then, "perhaps you could just read and restrain yourself from malapertness." i got a case of "malapertness" when i was a kid, but i'm immunized now, thank you.
i'm venting, alright. my point is i appreciate the non-condesending demeanor of this thread. most of the folks on the other threads are great too, but there is a lion...
might-be-don, glad you're gett'n free
skater
shine150
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/12/01 10:44 AM
RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Shine,
It's quite the Christian way to come in here where I'm not supposed to roam and then engage in scandalous and malignant allegations.
I just thought you might like to know that this thread is available to my eyes.
Of course, this will be my only post in this thread which is supposed to be a "Lion-Lamb free zone."
If you respond to this, I plan not to return. Have your fun, but I thought you ought to know that I can read what you're saying.
Lion-Lamb
P.S. Evidently that immunization did not take, for malapertness is quite evident in your note.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
might-be-don
01/12/01 10:52 AM
RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Shine150,
Lion-Lamb speaks very clearly to me... my use of language is immature. I often only see what I want to see and overlook what folks are really trying to say. He has been pushing me beyond my usual casual look at what has been written.
I have always thought of God as passionate about His people (all of them, saved/unsaved ) . The OV provides a framework for this belief. Thus is deserving of a look see.
don
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
non-theo-techie
01/12/01 2:03 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: For Non-Theologians ONLY
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Lion-Lamb,
I think it would be naive to think that you don't have access to these postings. After reading several of your posts, I can't read your humor. Were you trying to be funny? I really can't tell.
To others,
I'd like us to steer clear of any discussions outside of this, especially the heavy-headed ones that Lion-lamb et. al. are involved in. I'd hate to think that we'd need a moderator to make this thread useful.
Now to continue the thread:
Shine,
It's really funny how after I became a Christian, hell became somewhat irrelevant. What I find unusual about that is that I wasn't really sure it existed until that time as well. I'm convinced it exists, but I can't say I understand the nature of what it is, i. e. simply dead or in some kind of constant burning. At this point it doesn't really matter because of my salvation in Jesus. It's not really relevant to the OV either.
What I think is relevant to the OV is the practical application of it. The OV provides me with the motivation to pray because I believe that it makes a difference. Calvinist and Arminian(sp?) views lead me to be laissez-faire about life: whatever is going to happen is going to happen...
-ntt
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