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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:58 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
Mephi2K
04/21/01 2:32 PM
What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Simple question. Profound implications.
What is the Kingdom of God?
Reader, in your view, what is the Kingdom of God? What does it mean? What does it symbolize? What does it entail? How does the Church relate to the Kingdom? (Any Ladd fans out there?) What does it mean to "promote the Kingdom"?
These questions are for anyone to answer, regardless of theological designation. I have some ideas and I want to see what others have to say.
PS: This question has absolutely NOTHING to do with open view theism whatsoever, for any who may be concerned that this is another critique of OVT. So, there are NO "traps" and no "bait" for anyone to be concerned about. This is completely outside of that. Just wanted to dispel any reservations to answering.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
04/21/01 2:48 PM
RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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I can tell you what Luther says about the kingdom of God in the Small Catechism:
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Second petition of the Lord's Prayer: Thy kingdom come.
What does this mean: God's kingdom comes indeed without our praying for it, but we ask in this prayer that it may come also to us.
When does this happen: God's kingdom comes when our heavenly Father gives us his Holy Spirit so that by his grace we believe his holy Word and live a godly life on earth now and in heaven forever.
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I think that Jesus' metaphors for the kingdom of heaven are fascinating. What do you all make of Jesus' statement that "the kingdom of heaven is within you"?
Blessings, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/21/01 10:12 PM
RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Before we can ask the question of what is the kingdom of God, we need to first address what a "kingdom" is. Dallas Willard states that a kingdom is "simply the range of our effective will. Whatever we genuinely have the say over is in our kingdom."
From that definition we can see that there are many kingdoms that are present all around us. From the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdoms of each man's own freewill which enables him to make his own choices and govern his own life without choosing to comform to a higher power. The kingdom of God can be defined as the present, available, direct rule of God offered to everyone through salvation. Everyone in the kingdom of God would be those who have chosen to recieve that salvation and obey God's will.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
04/22/01 12:23 AM
RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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GDG-
Following up on the second petition of the Lord's Prayer: "Your KINGDOM come, your WILL be done." Connection? I think so. I think these are precisely the SAME thing. This is ONE petition. Tough I'd expand on it a little from other passages, simply stated, I'd say, "The Kingdom of God is wherever the WIll of God is sought out and carried out."
Ciao-
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
ilgwamh
04/23/01 8:54 AM
RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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What about inaugural eschatology? I heard the Kingdom is already, but not yet. Comments?
peace,
Vinnie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/23/01 11:30 AM
RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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When you say inaugural eschatology, are you referring to the kingdom of God as being something that is set in motion to happen? There are those who believe that the kingdom of God in the Bible is referring to the thousand year period after Christ returns where God shall rule on earth, which is known as the Millenial Reign. However, this definition does not account for verses such as Matthew 6:33 which state that we are to seek first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness. Now if we replaced "kingdom of God" with "millenial reign" we would have "Seek first the millenial reign and it's righeousness." Now, to me, that doesn't seem very accurate. I don't think we're supposed to be seeking after the millenial reign of Christ.
We know from the Bible that the kingdom of God is something that is currently present with us. Colossians 1:13 states that "[God] has rescued us from from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves"
This verse speaks of something that has already happened, not something that is going to happen in the future. We have already been brought into the kingdom of God.
In Colossians 4:11, Paul speaks of his brothers in Christ as "fellow workers in the kingdom of God"
We can see from these verses that the kingdom of God is present and that Christians are an active part of it. I gave what I believe to be an accurate definition of the kingdom of God in my post above.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
04/23/01 12:15 PM
RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Tom, following up on your follow up on the second petition, here's what Luther says about the third petition:
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The third petition: Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
What does this mean: The good and gracious will of God is surely done without our prayer, but we ask in this prayer that it may be done also among us.
When does this happen? God's will is done whenever he hinders and defeats every evil scheme and purpose of the devil, the world, and our sinful self, which would prevent us from keeping his name holy [the first petition] and would oppose the coming of his kingdom [the second petition]. And his will is done when he strengthens our faith and keeps us firm in his Word as long as we live. This is his gracious and good will.
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Blessings, GDG
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
04/23/01 4:56 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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I have been wanting to answer Memphi's questions ever since they were posted. I believe that "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done" does Not mean the same thing. I believe that in our personal lives God's will can only be accomplished when we ALLOW Him to move in and through us. We have to surrender the kingdom (who will reign) over to God and then He is able to accomplish things. He is a respecter of persons so in order for God's will to be done we first must say "Thy Kingdom come".
Matt said: "Dallas Willard states that a kingdom is "simply the range of our effective will. Whatever we genuinely have the say over is in our kingdom."
So, when we give the reign over to God we are basically submitting our will over to Him. We submit what we genuinely have the say(our kingdom)over to Him.
To answer Memphi's question about whether the church is operating within God's Kingdom I say whenever the church is about promoting truth and allowing people freedom to "be" and not feeling like they must "do" is when the God's Kingdom can operate effectively in the church. I believe that when people cease from trying but rather submit to the Spirit of God then the God's Kingdom is moving and operating within the church.
That's my interpretation of the passage
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Triskal
04/23/01 8:56 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Amen, Trosie!
I agree completely with your interpretation of the passage. If you haven't already, I strongly suggest you read "The Divine Conspiracy" by Dallas Willard. The first few chapters speak in great detail about the Kingdom of God, and our role in it. But you are correct, we need to submit ourselves to God's rule (kingdom) and then he will begin a great work in us as Phil. 1:6 says. Our job is to become apprentices of Jesus and submit ourselves to God's kingdom.
In His Grip,
Matt
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
04/23/01 11:24 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Trosie-
Sounds to me like you just argued persuasively that "thy kingdom come" and "thy will be done" ARE the same thing!
Tom
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
trosie
04/24/01 1:35 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Tom:
I argued that they are separate from one another but they are interrelated nonetheless. My point was that due to the fact that God allows us freewill He gives us freedom to ask for His will to be done in our lives. His will can only be accomplished AFTER we surrender our freewill to Him. In order for "Thy will be done" we must first surrender our own "kingdom - reign" When we say "Thy Kingdom come" we are basically saying "God, you may have dominion in my life" only AFTER this can His will can be done in our life. So, our kingdom must be surrendered to His kingdom before God's will can be administered. The more we surrender our lives to God, the more God is able to move and work in and through us. I do not think it coincidental that it first says "Thy Kingdom come" before "Thy will be done" -- I believe it works in this order purposely.
Here's a good example: Jesus pleaded with God in the garden, "If it can be let this cup pass from me" He was open to and surrendering to the Father - AND THEN - "But not my will but Your's be done" God was given the authority to accomplish His will.
Here's one more: When we accept God into our lives He begins to grow us into the person of Christ. First, we give our lives over to Him (Thy Kingdom come - we surrender our own reign to Him) Then God is able to work in our lives and grow us onward (Thy will be done).
Do you see how I view them separate from one another now?
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
TGB
04/24/01 6:40 AM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: What Is the "Kingdom Of God"?
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Trosie-
Gotcha! I can see the distinction you're making.
Tom
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