 |
| 
archive
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/27/2001 5:19 AM (GMT -6) |   | Message
ghost-dog-girl
01/10/01 3:25 PM
Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The book of Jonah portrays God as changing his mind three times.
1) The Ninevites respond with prayer and fasting in response to Jonah's prophecy that God would destroy them. In 3:9, the king of Ninevah explains the rationale behind this response, "Who knows? God may relent and change his mind..."
2) In the next verse, the inspired author of Jonah says that "When God saw what they did [as opposed to God knowing from all eternity that he would not destroy the Ninevites]...God changed his mind..."
3) In 4:2, Jonah says that the reason he initially fled from God's call was that he knew that God was "a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and ready to relent from punishing." He did not want to give the Ninevites an opportunity to repent because he knew God might change his mind about their destruction if he did.
So, according to the Ninevites, the inspired author of Jonah, and Jonah himself, God sometimes changes his mind in response to prayer and fasting.
I suppose one could argue that this narrative is descriptive rather than prescriptive. But when God speaks at the end of Jonah, he does so in order to rebuke Jonah for his attitude toward the Ninevites rather than his mistaken doctrine of God. God seems to be more concerned with broken relationships than bad theology (if the conviction that God can change his mind in response to prayer and repentance is as dangerously mistaken as classical theologians claim).
Jesus also seems to endorse the repentant Ninevites' rationale in Matt. 12:41 (and Luke 11:32) when he uses their example to rebuke the self-righteous/doubting Pharisees and scribes.
How do classical theologians understand the passages in Jonah--i.e. "...God changed his mind..." (3:10)--which seem to suggest that God changed his mind?
(Note: I borrowed heavily in this post from an essay by Chelsea DeArmond on the BGC website, called "Is it reasonable to accuse one another of idolatry..." Chelsea, if you're out there, I hope you don't mind...)
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/10/01 10:35 PM
RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G-D-G,
I'm sorry I have not gotten back to the forum today to finish answering three of my own questions on the Trinity thread. I wanted to acknowledge your note to that effect. Thanks for your patience.
You indicated you borrowed heavily from another web site. Do you have the address handy? You mentioned a Chelsea DeArmond. Is she an open theist theologian? Has she published some essays? I don't recall seeing any book on open theism by her. Come to think about it, I don't recall seeing any book on open theism by any woman. Do you know of any who have published or are about to publish. I believe I have kept familiar with all the open theim literature. Perhaps I've missed some.
Thanks.
Lion-Lamb
P.S. Perhaps I can come back to this Jonah thread after I've returned to the other ones I've left hanging.
P.S. Did you vacation in Mexico? You seem to be lapsing into Spanish since you've returned.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/11/01 7:02 AM
RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excellent, GDG! Almost 23 years ago the book of Jonah was instrumental in convincing me of the truth of what is now termed the "Open View". I was struck with the inescapable conclusion that either God had lied to Jonah and the Ninevites, in that He knew He would NOT "overthrow" Ninevah in 40 days, or He did not have absolute foreknowledge of the future free choices of free moral agents.
Lots of other scriptures also did the trick, but one overriding observation: the Open View can encompass all the scriptures dealing with the extent of God's knowledge, but the classic view must attempt to explain away all the scriptures presenting a limitation of God's knowledge or changing of God's mind. The problem with the anthropomorphic (technically anthropopathic) argument is that any metaphor must mean something similar to what it literally conveys, or the purpose of it is self-contradictory. To say that it is an anthropomorphism when the bible tells us God repents or changes His mind is fine - but it must mean that God is doing something LIKE repenting or changing His mind. What it cannot mean, and still be coherent, is that God never does anything like changing His mind because He knows the entire course of the future in exhaustive detail.
Just some thoughts!
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Mephi2K
01/11/01 7:49 AM
RE: RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, RevivalTheology! Welcome to the room. I would love for you to posit an answer to my 2nd question on the Trinity thread. It seems that you have an idea of what you mean by anthropomorphism, and I'd like to test it out. Thanks...
In Christ,
Mephi2K
PS: Maybe in email or something, we can talk about your Revival Theology site. Some interesting things on there, to say the least...
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
RevivalTheology
01/11/01 9:12 AM
RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I confess to not being able to find the "Trinity thread" you mention. I also confess not to be particularly fond of this forum software, it makes jumping into the middle of an ongoing discussion quite difficult.
You're more than welcome to email me concerning any questions you might have, though I prefer public forums because they give more people a chance to participate in a discussion or at least learn from one.
In the Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Lion-Lamb
01/11/01 9:01 PM
RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G-D-G,
This is simply a follow-up to my earlier note in this thread. Since I've addressed the matter of anthropomorphism in overdose style this evening, I simply refer you and other readers of this thread to my lengthy note to you in the thread, Open Theism and the Trinity--Christocentric Theology of God .
About to close down for the night,
Lion-Lamb
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
SteveHarris
01/16/01 5:03 AM
RE: RE: Jonah and anthropomorphism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G-D-G, I find a similar exchange in Gen 18, where Abraham bargains (and pretty extensively at that) w/ God over the fate of Sodom. And as far as the Trinity -- are the 3 strangers at Mamre the Trinity? Actually, in a famous Russian Orthodox icon by Andrei Rublev (I mention this in a much longer thread above somewhere) -- "Old Testament Trinity" they are protrayed as such. This has me recalling the old George C. Scott film "The Bible in the Beginning" where the three strangers (all Peter O'Toole) all have O'Toole's face, with two darkening over while one speaks. Just tossing that into the conversation.
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
ghost-dog-girl
01/16/01 9:07 AM
the three strangers at Mamre
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am familiar with Rublev's icon of the trinity. While the interpretation of the three strangers at Mamre as a trinitarian theophany has Christian tradition (esp. Eastern Orthodox) on its side, modern exegetes cry foul when ideas that were first formulated in the early church (such as the doctrine of the trinity) are imported into Old Testament scriptures. Personally, I hold to a social trinitarian view (as opposed to a more modalistic view), and I think that Rublev's iconic interpretation of the three strangers at Mamre is a beautiful illustration of what that might look like.
| | Back to Top | | |
 | Forum Information | Currently it is Monday, November 09, 2026 4:54 PM (GMT -6)
There are a total of 97,718 posts in 6,040 threads.
In the last 3 days there were 0 new threads and 0 reply posts. View Active Threads
|
Forum powered by dotNetBB v2.42EC SP3
dotNetBB © 2000-2026 |
|
|