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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 4:45 PM (GMT -6) |   | Message
road2emmaus
03/31/01 1:47 PM
Deuteronomy 31:16-21 and the OV
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I was reading Deut. 31:16-21 and wondered how it fits into the OV:
And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, `Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.
Now write down for yourselves this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them. When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their forefathers, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant. And when many disasters and difficulties come upon them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath." So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.
Is God speaking in terms of possibilities here, or inevitabilities? The statements make it sound like a sure thing. However, the surrounding context is filled with exhortations and clear warnings for Israel to remain faithful - the choice is theirs. This makes me inclined to believe that God's words in the above passage are based on his knowledge of the Israelites' hearts ("I know what they are DISPOSED to do"- v. 21) and therefore spoken in terms of probability as opposed to inevitability (otherwise the choice they have would be rendered meaningless).
And yet, I just can't get around the way it's stated- "They WILL reject me..." and we all know what happened in the end (albeit with a future generation)- they did, by enlarge, turn away from God.
Thoughts on how ths passage might fit into OV?
road2emmaus
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Geebob
04/01/01 2:38 AM
RE: Deuteronomy 31:16-21 and the OV
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This verse looks like it will be a challenge for openness to interpret though I would like to point out that for the simple proposition that to God, some of the future is open, there is absolutly no conflict. There is no time table and details are sparse. There is also no mention of to what extent the people will rebel. Suppose we are to take this as prediction of God for what will inevitably happen. For all we know, God may have hoped that this would be a phase for which israel must pass through. And it is clear that God did not expect israel to rebel to the extents that she did (i.e. 7:31, 19:5, and Jer. 32:35, these have been touched on in "Infinite Intelligence and the anthropomorphic god."
Also there is no mention that specific individuals of the upcoming generations would rebel.
I don't think any evidence for meticulous foreknowledge can be gleaned here for these reasons.
However this is problematic for some of the things that open theists want to say. If it was truly inevitable for the israelites to prostitute themselves to the pagan gods, can they be held responsible, because open theists want to say that we cannot be held responsible for evil.
But ultimately, I think especially looking at this passage, when God predicts the future sin of an individual or a corporate body and when it is predicted in such a way that it seems (and probably is) inevitable, there are always previous sinful attitudes in that entities past that were unnecessary andcould have been otherwise.
What I am getting at is that not every decision we make is equaly balanced between good and evil. We form habits in response to the decisions we make. we develope as we make decisions and in israel's past they grumbled and tested God in the wilderness as well as the idol worshipping occasions and those attitudes were not completely wrenched from the heart of israel. Let us say that it was during those moments that israel had a libertarian free choice. They made the wrong one and now the scars from those events were bound to resurface. When they did They would face hardships and hopefully they would have a libertarian free moment then to make the right decision. It would take perseverance in following God and when ever israel sinned grieviously, more evil was inevitable.
Sometimes God can know when evil is inevitable and sometimes not. I do not believe that there are any prophecies whatsoever of the evil that israel would commit during the travels in the wilderness. This prophecy however is explicitly based not upon God's foreknowledge from the foundations of the earth but after Israel's rebellion in the past and I find that VERY problematic for the classical view.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
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