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Holiday
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 22
| Posted 11/9/2004 7:43 AM (GMT -6) |   | Hello smart people,
I haven't read any of the articles that are links, so if I say something that could be corrected by them, I apologize.
I think the same sort of point has been raised by Rob and Ross (sorry if you guys disagree). I've listened to the cross and the sword series a number of times. I think it was a great series and needed to be preached, but some things remain ambiguous.
I think Greg gave one example in the sermon at the end series, where he talked about being either a soldier or a police officer. I think it was solider. Anyhow Greg basically said you can do that and be a Christian, but you are doing a Kingdom of the World thing and not a Kingdom of God thing. Not that it was necessarily bad to be a soldier, but just don't be a soldier killing in the name of Jesus.
How about as a politically interested American. Should we be politically interested as a Kingdom of God person or as a Kingdom of the world person. Take abortion for example. I bet we would almost all agree that God opposes it morally. But how should I vote with regard to abortion. Or maybe that is not the most pertinent issue.
Take "freeing Iraqis" as I have seen some posted. Would God be for it and thus killing some people through war or against it and hope that we could bring about change in a different way, while more Iraqis die under Hussein (I didn't even try to look it up to spell it)? I don't know? I don't think it is at all clear.
So yes I begrudgingly voted for Bush, and I think that I probably did because abortion is wrong and I think economics has more to do Al Greenspan then the president. And most importantly, my family is as Republican as they come and I wanted to enjoy Christmas this year
Oh and I listened hard when Kerry talked about environment, education and social issues (the democratic Christian issues) and I was not all sure how the candidates differed.
Kerry wanted to give more money to NCLB, which was Bushes initiative, he said two things about the Kioto treaty, I didn't spell that right, but I’ve never seen it in print only heard them debate, which Bush rebuttled with Job loss and I'm not real sure about the differences in social issues. Only that Bush wants to give tax cuts to the rich.
In so far as Doc and Meph want to inform Americans not to fuse the cross and the sword I think they are completely right. My power as a Christian is not in my vote. But can a Christian be passionate about politics. And if so do they have to be democratic. Yikes, that is not at all clear to me. And if that is not what Doc and Meph are saying, which i don't think they are, what should the Christians response be to the political scene?
It seems to me that if you are passionately democratic or republican, the opposing political Christian is going to pull out there arsenal on the issues (gay marriage, abortion, and political freedom) vs. (the environment, systemic oppression of the poor, and supposedly education). Either way you are not completely Christian no matter how you vote. So what am I supposed to do?
So in short when I see all these criticisms, which are valid, I want to ask, "o.k. good point, now what"......listening....looking for an answer....silence....vote for Kerry....."o.k. I bet that will solve all the problems and we won't have anything to ciricize then."
glad it is that easy. O.K. so one is really saying that.
Respecting others opinions,
Holiday | | Back to Top | | |
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Mayflower
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2002
Total Posts : 445
| Posted 11/9/2004 5:24 PM (GMT -6) | | .
Mephi, Greg, & Modes -- I sincerely appreciate your input..
4 more years.
What a grim thought.
We supported (and voted for) a different candidate.
When we learned that Bush had been declared the winner, we draped our
political yard-signs in black -- to indicate our mourning.
F.Y.I.,
attached below are a few more Sojourners Magazine links.
YES -- Jim Wallis is great.
Peace & blessings,
<><
--------
July 2004
Sojourners Magazine Articles ...
About the RELIGIOUS RIGHT
.
.
1. The Religous Right Era Is Over.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0410&article=041051
God is not a Republican. Or a Democrat. by Jim Wallis. October 2004 (Vol. 33, No. 10, pp. 5-6). Hearts & Minds. .
2. Take Back the Faith.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj0409&article=040951
The best contribution of religion is precisely not to be a loyal partisan. by Jim Wallis. September 2004 (Vol. 33, No. 9, pp. 4). Hearts & Minds. .
3. A Declining Force.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9911&article=991132a
An inside look at the fall of the Religious Right. by Richard Parker. November-December 1999 (Vol. 28, No. 6, pp. 57). Reviews. 'It must now be acknowledged that we failed.' ----Cal Thomas.
4. Hostage to an Illusion.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9911&article=991110a
An interview with Cal Thomas and Ed Dobson. by Jim Wallis. November-December 1999 (Vol. 28, No. 6). Cover. The Religious Right lost its moorings and sold its soul when it chose to play by the politicians' rules..
5. Kingmakers in the House of Caesar.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9511&article=951141b
by Mark Cerbone. November-December 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 5, pp. 11-12). Commentary. Despite the name "Christian Coalition," this is primarily an ideologically driven outfit..
6. Whose Kingdom?
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9511&article=951104
The blurring lines between Pat Robertson's money and politics. by Michael Smith. November-December 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 5, pp. 26-30). Cover. Critics say Robertson has used the tax-exempt status of his ministry to enrich himself at the expense of his followers and the U.S. taxpayers..
7. A Network for Renewal.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9507&article=950751
by Jim Wallis. July-August 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. 4-7). Hearts & Minds. We wanted to bring together a new network of spiritual and social concern across the life of the churches..
8. Cutting a Deal With the American Family?
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9507&article=950742
by Aaron Gallegos and Rachel Johnson. July-August 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. ). Between the Lines. If there is to be a contract, it must include provisions to reduce hunger, poverty, and joblessness..
9. Suspicions of Conspiracy.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9507&article=950722
How a spirit of fear can distort scripture and history. by Tom Sine. July-August 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. 26-30). Features. The bible was never intended to be used to establish a timeline for the end of history or to lend support to conspiracy theories..
10. To the Public Square.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9507&article=950741a
by Julie Polter. July-August 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 3, pp. 10-11). Commentary.
11. Outside the Gate.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9505&article=950521
Will progressive evangelicals please stand up and be counted? by Gordon Aeschliman. May-June 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 2, pp. 22-26). Features. We should be scared of leaders who are asking for the blessing of the church and culture. Those exchanges are lethal to our faith and erode all the integrity of our mission...It never has been popular to wed the notion of evangelicalism with social justice--until very recently--and that, believe it or not, was the doings of fundamentalists, not evangelical progressives..
12. A Bitter Harvest of Hatred.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950315
The game we must refuse to play. by Roberta Hestenes. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 24-25). Cover. Some seek victory by declaring that Christians who do not share their specific ideological views are not Christian at all..
13. A Hijacked Heritage.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950313
by Tom Sine. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 20). Cover. The Right has determined what the politically correct issues are..
14. Faith in Search of a Home.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950312
The lost meaning of "evangelical.". by Tony Campolo. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 19-20). Cover.
15. Getting Beyond Labels.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950317
Serpents, doves, and the Religious Right. by Jim Rice. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1). Cover.
16. Human Vs. Political Needs.
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950316
Catholic bishops evaluate welfare reform. by Aaron Gallegos. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1, pp. 26). Cover.
17. Who Speaks for God?
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&issue=soj9503&article=950311
An Alternative to the Religious Right. by Jim Wallis. March-April 1995 (Vol. 24, No. 1). Cover. At stake is not just politics, but the meaning of faith itself...Evangelical faith holds up the virtues of compassion and community; ideological faith appeals to personal and group self-interest..
[end]
---------------------
SOURCE:
• The Right Stuff, Sojourners Magazine/July 2004
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=magazine.article&mode=keyword&keyword=Religious%20Right&issue=soj0407&article=040720
.
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/12/2004 12:39 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
[quote]
PSS:
Selah, good questions! I'd like to get back to them later, kay? 
selah:
Is it later yet?
tic toc tic toc tic toc
time's a wastin'
tap tap tap tap
foot's a tappin'
uh um uh um uh um
throat's a clearin'
Where art thou?
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Bubba
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2004
Total Posts : 3
| Posted 11/12/2004 6:04 PM (GMT -6) | | This is my first time post... but I've been reading for a while and I can't stand to be silent any longer.
I'm getting to the point where I'm embarrassed to be associated with the hate that I hear being spouted in the name of a loving and compassionate God.
Despite the attempts, I don't think the politics of our country should be reduced to a simple-minded argument of "good" vs. "evil". Liberals / Democrats / Republicans / Muslims / Gays / Abortion Drs / ProGun / Anti-Gun / etc. aren't evil people... if you think they all are, then you drank the Kool-Aid of the political machines and are no longer thinking with a clear head.
I'm with Doc on this one.
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/12/2004 10:39 PM (GMT -6) | | Rossfadeinoutquote:
On the moral issues,this is where I'm not sure what Meph and Doc want... Should we want leaders who don't believe in moral absolutes?
I'm pretty sure that you both think that the widespread legality of abortion is wrong, although I don't want to assume anything.
I don't understand why the same emphasis is NOT placed on abortion as it is on the war for many liberals on this site? I don't understand why many liberals aren't fighting for the rights of the unborn child as passionately as they are for the victims of the war? This is the puzzling piece for me personally.
Bubbaquote:
I'm getting to the point where I'm embarrassed to be associated with the hate that I hear being spouted in the name of a loving and compassionate God.
Despite the attempts, I don't think the politics of our country should be reduced to a simple-minded argument of "good" vs. "evil". Liberals / Democrats / Republicans / Muslims / Gays / Abortion Drs / ProGun / Anti-Gun / etc. aren't evil people... if you think they all are, then you drank the Kool-Aid of the political machines and are no longer thinking with a clear head.
I fully agree. I do not want to be associated as being a Democrat nor a Republican but rather as a person seeking to follow Christ. I believe it is wrong to "label" those who voted either way as being "liberal" or "fundamental" since the CONVICTIONS each person based their decision on in voting will hold a lot of weight for THEM NOT the LABEL. We as Kingdom people should be primarily concerned with UNITY not division hence labeling people for their convictions is wrong on both sides.
**It's sad how much effort is being put into bashing Bush. Folks, whoever is in leadership NEEDS the support of the people they are leading. As a church member I may not agree with everything that the leadership votes on or pushes for ministry YET I believe in my heart that prayer for the leadership goes much further than bashing the leadership with other members of the church. It would be destructive for the body if all the members began bashing the pastors of their church due to differences... PRAYER IS POWERFUL! In the same way, if you don't like or agree with President Bush then pray for him -- Jesus told us to do this for those we don't agree with "Pray for your enemies." The tongue can be a wicked tool.**
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 11/13/2004 12:00 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by quest for truth
Rossfadeinout
I don't understand why the same emphasis is NOT placed on abortion as it is on the war for many liberals on this site? I don't understand why many liberals aren't fighting for the rights of the unborn child as passionately as they are for the victims of the war? This is the puzzling piece for me personally.
right, and visa versa!
Bubbaquote:
I'm getting to the point where I'm embarrassed to be associated with the hate that I hear being spouted in the name of a loving and compassionate God.
I hear ya Bubba. Me too. And, it seems, every day it gets worse. God's character gets further maligned and we are stuck trying to communicate the gospel in the wake of all that - it's a mess.
QFT: quote:
**It's sad how much effort is being put into bashing Bush. Folks, whoever is in leadership NEEDS the support of the people they are leading.
Well, I guess I'll say I disagree. Put it this way QFT, if I'm a leader and I'm leading you off in the wrong direction (whatever that is), I WOULD WANT you to stop me, talk to me, and ultimately NOT support me. Whoever is in leadership NEEDS genuine love - this could INCLUDE refusing to support them in one way or another. I agree "bashing them" is probably not loving, but supporting them in wrong things is not loving either. Know what I mean?
QFT:quote:
...PRAYER IS POWERFUL! In the same way, if you don't like or agree with President Bush then pray for him -- Jesus told us to do this for those we don't agree with "Pray for your enemies."
Right. Pray FOR him to STOP whatever he's doing that's not good. Praying "for" someone - especially your enemy (whether he's in sheeps clothing or not  , doesn't mean you pray that their plans succeed. No. Rather, you pray for the "good" whatever that is, and then pray that THEY will be aligned with that. That's my take on it anyway...
Blessings and love,
selah
ps I finally found your book!  I'll get it to WHC asap!!!
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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quest for truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 479
| Posted 11/13/2004 2:39 AM (GMT -6) | | Selahquote:
Praying "for" someone - especially your enemy (whether he's in sheeps clothing or not , doesn't mean you pray that their plans succeed. No. Rather, you pray for the "good" whatever that is, and then pray that THEY will be aligned with that
ABSOLUTELY! Actually the best way to pray is the way Jesus taught us "THY will be done on earth as it it in heaven." On this we agree.
First off, Kerry wasn't going to end the war. Kerry was, however, going to allow and pass laws for stem-cell research of embryos. So, who was actully allowing more evil and murder? To be honest I wasn't crazy about either candidate and that's why I opened a thread to "think out loud" I don't believe what I hear from politicians anyway. Just for the record, I am NOT a Republican nor a Democrat nor a Fundamentalists -- I am a follower of Christ.
Second, war is horrible and I am quite sure everyone agrees. I don't think people should say they support the war (the leader) just because the President has called us into one BUT I also don't see the benefit of bashing the President. If you and I don't want our country to be at war then this is where it is our right/privilege/obligation to PRAY! That is what I mean by supporting out leaders.
Thanks, Selah, I look forward to receiving the book!
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kerygma
Registered Member
Date Joined Aug 2002
Total Posts : 45
| Posted 11/17/2004 10:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by GregBoyd
ANYONE who declares his nation is "the light of the world" and that "darkness" will "not overcome it" is SCARY... I always thought Jesus -- not America, or political freedom, or anything or anyone else -- was "the light." Yet, I heard no Christian except Wallis cry out "Blasphemy" when this was spoken by Bush. And THEN we hear that the only sure way to peace is for OTHER nations to accept demoncracy -- the light of the world. So, we'ze going to get evangelistic bout this! Shoudl be interesting. Say hello again to the crusades (he used THAT word too).
Its not TOO FAR from the relationship of conservative Christians to another notorious quasi religious politician in Germany not too long ago.
So, I had to go back and look at the original speech, Greg. Had never heard the uproar over this, and was curious:
"I believe there is a reason that history has matched this nation with this time. America strives to be tolerant and just. We respect the faith of Islam, even as we fight those whose actions defile that faith. We fight, not to impose our will, but to defend ourselves and extend the blessings of freedom.
We cannot know all that lies ahead. Yet, we do know that God had placed us together in this moment, to grieve together, to stand together, to serve each other and our country. And the duty we have been given -- defending America and our freedom -- is also a privilege we share.
We're prepared for this journey. And our prayer tonight is that God will see us through, and keep us worthy.
Tomorrow is September the 12th. A milestone is passed, and a mission goes on. Be confident. Our country is strong. And our cause is even larger than our country."
OK, what is our cause?
"Ours is the cause of human dignity; freedom guided by conscience and guarded by peace."
Does this sound Nazi-like Greg? Really? Then what does this sound like? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
Endowed with....Liberty....by their Creator. God intending man to be free. Interesting. Wanna rail against this too? Man is not being forced "to accept" democracy(freedom). Man has a right to it, by God.
Bush continuing....
"This ideal of America is the hope of all mankind. That hope drew millions to this harbor. That hope still lights our way."
Wait a minute...the hope of human dignity- freedom guided by conscience and guarded by peace...lights our way.
Hope, Greg. Hope lights. Not our nation.
Bush continuing...
"And the light shines in the darkness. And the darkness will not overcome it."
So, Bush is saying man's hope will not be overcome by threats to liberty. As Christ's light will not be overcome by evil.
He did not say the U.S. is the light of the world. Hope is the light. And he did not replace Christ with our nation. In fact, "our cause is larger than our country."
Greg, I'd invite you to be familiar with something before you let your prejudice overcome the facts.
Scott
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020911-3.html
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trosie
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 550
| Posted 11/23/2004 3:47 AM (GMT -6) | | MephEternalquote:
Re-electing Bush as a leader, whether we like it or not, sends a message to the world community. And if you think they LIKE that message, check around on places like BBCNews.com. It just ain't so.
Just for the record.... United States has not had a great standing with many nations for quite some time. In fact WAY before President Bush was in office, back in the 80's, I recall standing in Mexico City with a group of college students and a local man spit on the ground in front of us as he was walking by in disgust toward us United States representatives.
Come on! I am not intending to defend Bush per se, but the present situation of the world did not start with a Republican being in office and it will NOT end with a Democrat being in office. WE (each of us) can change the world as God equips us to do so. The Cross and the Sword series sparked in me a need to make a difference in my PERSONAL life because the United States isn't going to get the job done -- Jesus didn't command the United States to evangelize but he did call each of us to do it. I voted for Bush NOT because I am a warmonger, conservative but because I believe in the sanctity of life.
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