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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 1/4/2005 4:47 PM (GMT -6) |   | PLEASE consider one last subject before this discussion board closes up shop. When Jesus prayed on the cross "Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing (Luke 23:34)", Who was He speaking of? Who was it that DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING? Does this only refer to those directly involved with the crucifixion (Herod, Pilate, the Pharisees and high priests, the crowd chanting "crucify Him", the roman solders, etc.)? I have heard people preach they WE are ALL "responsible" for Christ's death since He died for sinners, which we all are. Was Christ praying for ALL of us? No matter what is determined as to whom Jesus is referring to here in this prayer, the fact stands that SOMEBODY DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING. Where then does the responsibility fall for the worst sin ever to be committed in our history if those directly involved DID NOT KNOW what they were doing? Will the Father forgive them?
His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 1/5/2005 3:40 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
JOHN: one possibility I have entertained is that they did not know the GRAVITY of what they were doing.
This caused me to study the Greek word translated "know" in the passage in question. The Greek is eido and Blue Bible defines it as...
quote:
1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
b) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see
1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
2) to pay attention, observe
3) to see about something
a) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
4) to inspect, examine
5) to look at, behold
e) to experience any state or condition
f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2) to know
a) to know of anything
b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
1) of any fact
2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
3) to know how, to be skilled in
c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)
For Synonyms see entry 5825
I take it as to know or percieve with the senses, which leads me to a number passages which speak of Israel being blinded, their hearing dulled, their hearts calloused, God giving them a spirit of stupor, etc. and of course Rom. 11:32 which speaks of God locking up both the Jews and Gentiles up in stubbornness, that He may be merciful to all.
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God_Is_Truth
Registered Member
Date Joined Nov 2003
Total Posts : 33
| Posted 1/5/2005 2:38 PM (GMT -6) | | lock, what would the non-ov answer be?
and what's this about the discussion boards closing? | | Back to Top | | |
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lock
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2004
Total Posts : 701
| Posted 1/6/2005 7:30 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
lock, what would the non-ov answer be?
and what's this about the discussion boards closing?
God is Truth,
It was announced a couple of weeks ago that Christus Ministries was no longer going to run this discussion boeard. I thought someone else was going to pick it up again but I have not been following it. Things may have changed.
The isssue I was raising is not who has been forgiven for the death of Christ on the cross, but that Jesus states that they did not KNOW what they were doing. Above I posted that the greek word here translated "know" speaks percieving and knowing something through the senses. The bible clearly states that God has given Israel a spirit of stupor, blindness, deafness, a calloused heart, etc. The bible aslo clearly states that all those involved in the crucifixtion were doing so according to God's purposes. What implication does this have on the issue of "responsibility" as defined by those who hold to LFW and eternal torment theology? Are they "responsible" for this sin if they did not KNOW what they were doing? Do they really have a choice in the matter? Could they have withstood God's intention? Should they recieve eternal torment for this?
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spenlake
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 1050
| Posted 1/6/2005 11:44 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by lock
quote:
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
lock, what would the non-ov answer be?
and what's this about the discussion boards closing?
God is Truth,
It was announced a couple of weeks ago that Christus Ministries was no longer going to run this discussion boeard. I thought someone else was going to pick it up again but I have not been following it. Things may have changed.
The isssue I was raising is not who has been forgiven for the death of Christ on the cross, but that Jesus states that they did not KNOW what they were doing. Above I posted that the greek word here translated "know" speaks percieving and knowing something through the senses. The bible clearly states that God has given Israel a spirit of stupor, blindness, deafness, a calloused heart, etc. The bible aslo clearly states that all those involved in the crucifixtion were doing so according to God's purposes. What implication does this have on the issue of "responsibility" as defined by those who hold to LFW and eternal torment theology? Are they "responsible" for this sin if they did not KNOW what they were doing? Do they really have a choice in the matter? Could they have withstood God's intention? Should they recieve eternal torment for this?
Lock,
They obviously knew they were killing an innocent man. Pilot and the Romans knew it. When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.”
The thieves knew: “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
The Jewish leaders knew: they plotted together to seize Jesus by stealth and kill Him.
What they didn't know was that these hateful actions were themselves accomplishing God's plan of salvation for the world. we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND WHICH HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”
Jesus's words on the cross offer forgiveness to all who killed Him, including me. This offer of forgivenss is only effective, it only is valid, if I believe on Him and repent. It is not another gospel or way of forgiveness, but the same one. There is a coming time when the period of grace ends and God will require recommpense for all the blood this evil generation has spilt. Those who do not repent and flee will pay the full price in the lake of fire.
they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
“For this reason also the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God
Spen Lake
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