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Beavis
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 23

Posted 2/11/2002 11:58 AM (GMT -6)

I would like to comment on your open view theory, as to several questions it raises
1.
Even though the will of man is autonomous in that we chose this or that how does this imply that the will of man is soveriegn in that it is free from influence and is therefore capable of distinguishing absolute truth from absolute falsehood?

2.
How does the concept of free will rectify the dependant nature of man to God in that man is free and independant only as long as His divine authority dictates?

3.
How would the fact that God knows who is and is not "saved" or will or will not be saved reuire intervention. How is he unjust for not creating circumstances that lead the individual definitivly to salvation

4.
It stated many times though out scripture that God knew everything about us even before anyone was concieved. This denotes the ability to give future-past consideration. If details of that nature any details for that matter are "known" and consideration is given then how could God be unaware of some issues and not all. Does God employ selectve amnesia here?

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/11/2002 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

Should we suppose, Beavis, that it is
either beneath God,
or a threat to God,
to create and honor genuine human freedom?

or ...
maybe you surprise your God!

Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/11/2002 11:19:25 PM

fr.patmos
Registered Member

Date Joined Jan 2002
Total Posts : 45

Posted 2/11/2002 3:00 PM (GMT -6)

Edited by - fr.patmos on 02/11/2002 8:02:25 PM

B. Winningham
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 15

Posted 2/12/2002 1:40 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

It stated many times though out scripture that God knew everything about us even before anyone was concieved.

Keyword: Everything

Maybe we need a definition for the word "everything" (as used in the scriptures)? Dooes this mean everything about our faith or lack of faith in GOD? Does this mean everything about our salvation (i.e.: Who is saved and who is condemned)? Does this mean every little minute detail of our individual lives including how many rolls of toilet paper someone, like myself, is going to use in a lifetime?

Should we take the word "everything" metaphorically? Figuratively? Literally?

Thanks For Your Comments,
B. Winningham

lil skeptik
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2001
Total Posts : 7

Posted 2/15/2002 10:01 AM (GMT -6)

I would like to see all of these references to God knowing us that are speckled throughout scripture.

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 2/17/2002 7:37 PM (GMT -6)

1.
Even though the will of man is autonomous in that we chose this or that how does this imply that the will of man is soveriegn in that it is free from influence and is therefore capable of distinguishing absolute truth from absolute falsehood?

Doc: No one holds that the free will is "sovereign" or "free from influence" -- or even capable of distinguishing absolute truth from absolute falsehood (if absolute means total unequivocal universe truth).

2. How does the concept of free will rectify the dependant nature of man to God in that man is free and independant only as long as His divine authority dictates?

Doc: Don't understand the question.

3. How would the fact that God knows who is and is not "saved" or will or will not be saved reuire intervention. How is he unjust for not creating circumstances that lead the individual definitivly to salvation

Doc: If its a "fact" that God knows who will and will not be saved, there is no way to reconcile this with the Open View.

4.It stated many times though out scripture that God knew everything about us even before anyone was concieved. This denotes the ability to give future-past consideration. If details of that nature any details for that matter are "known" and consideration is given then how could God be unaware of some issues and not all. Does God employ selectve amnesia here?

Doc:Bromiley's recent article in CT. not withstanding, the OV doesn't hold that God employs selective amnesia. What on earth would such a supposition solve? If it is a "fact" that God knows everything about us before we're born, and "everything" here means "all we shall ever do," then there is no way to reconcile this with the Open View.

The FACTS upon which you raise your questions about the OV presuppose that the OV is wrong. As others have already done, I'd ask you to reconsider how "factual" your alleged "facts" really are.

blessings
Doc

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

B. Winningham
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 15

Posted 2/18/2002 5:57 AM (GMT -6)

quote:

The FACTS upon which you raise your questions about the OV presuppose that the OV is wrong. As others have already done, I'd ask you to reconsider how "factual" your alleged "facts" really are.

You have made a very good point Dr. Boyd. By my faith as a Christian I know that anything GOD decrees or reveals through "true" prophet(s) will take place and become a reality. As a proponent for OV, I beleive prophesy and foreknowledge are entirely two separate issues. Eventhough GOD "may not" foreknow every little free will action of his created creatures, He does know what is in our hearts and has the power bring all His revelations through prophesy into reaslity.

Some of the thoughts of the anti-OV theists do not hold water with me. I understand that some anti-OVists say "if GOD cannot foreknow every little fine detail about every little fine detail for the future, then pprophesy has no merit and is wrong." Some will go on to say "If prophesy has no merit and is wrong, then history has no merit and is wrong." These anti-OVists can get very irrational while trying to rationalize their thoughts against OV Theism. Some say that history cannot be trusted if prophesy cannot be trusted. I know of no OV proponent that denies GOD's revelations through prophets. Are there any around? If so, who are they please?

I have many GOD given talents but prophesy is not one of them. Eventhough I, as a mortal created by GOD, cannot prophesy the future (which has not yet became a reality) I, like practically any other other GOD created human, can know and understand the past (which has become a reality). Don't most of us like to 2nd guess after the fact?

While sitting here in front of my computer and typing this message you are reading, I see a telephone in front of me and a table lamp to my right. Eons ago, my history teacher taught us that Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone and Thomas Edison invented the electric light bulb. That is common knowledge. I have no reason to doubt that tid bit of history. I know that "somebody" did. Though they were both dead before my time, it might as well have been them as someone else.

If someone had asked me on Sept. 10th what major event was going to take place on September 11, 2001, I would have had absolutely no idea. My knowledge of the past (i.e.: invention of the telephone) has absolutely nothing to do with prophesy and/or foreknowledge of the future. Classical theists have absolutely no grounds in trying to connect the two as a means of building a case gainst OV theism. But, on the other hand, I suppose that is their GOD given free will to "try."

In closing, GOD is a very rational GOD while man can sometimes be very irrational. I think the Classical Theists are sometimes the ones that "make GOD in the image of man" in their sometimes irrational statements against OV Theism.

B. Winningham

Beavis
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 23

Posted 2/19/2002 7:26 AM (GMT -6)

Doc, I would like to rephrase a little. It seems to me that Free will has been espoused inseparably to divine foreknowledge in one way or another, why is this. If God Knows all details indefinatly or even if he does not, what effect does this have on free will or does it have any effect at all which is what I am trying to understand. I do not presuppose that the OV as you put is either right or wrong. I simply would like to know if it even matters, you see we say we choose this or that but all of our choices are a reaction to circumstance or prejudice. Even your breakfast is included in this Mr. Boyd, lets say you had eggs this mornng for breakfast, well why , well first of they were there(circumstance) second, they appealed to you more any other available option(prejudice) sure, you "could" have had emew eggs with wild goats milk but they were not in the fridge. Life you see is not infinite choice but rather limited selection. Now I know life is bigger and much more complicated than breakfast, however, think of all the mitigating circumstance (spouse,career, children ....)that influence with extreme prejudice all of
the "choices" we make. It has been said that life is ten percent of life is what happens and the other ninety percent is how one reacts. If this is true who or what is responsible for that ten percent. I ask this relation to the assumption that the open view says God does not know all the finite details of ones life please correct me here if I have misunderstood the point of the open view.

Peace, out y'all

GregBoyd
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818

Posted 2/20/2002 2:34 PM (GMT -6)

Experience, reason, science and Scripture all demonstrate that all freedom is within parameters. Where the parameters end and freedom begins we have no clue. But it would not disturb the Open View in the least if it could be proven that, at this moment right now, with regard to this decision right now, 99.5% of the total situation was determined, and .5% up to you. Indeed, if I HAD to guess, based on my understanding of such things as a) genetic influence b) social influence c) spiritual influence d) the influence of character from previous decisions e) necessary conditions of physical existence, etc. I would guess that this estimation of the influence distribution is probably close to correct, most of the time.

But I may have answered a different question than the one you asked.

Greg

"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul

Beavis
Registered Member

Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 23

Posted 2/21/2002 7:01 AM (GMT -6)

Hey Doc,
I Think we are starting to understand one another, cool. I would like to clarify a few more things for future reference, first is the Open view stance on the relationship of the will of man to the will of God, I am under the impression that you are saying that although God knows all future events, they are not etched in granite hence the term open. If this is the case then perhaps we see the same thing only in different terms. If not then I ask why is there or must there be a direct or indirect causal relationship between (fore)knowledge and disicion? And last but not least why of all issues facing the church and theology at large today, would CHRISTIAN students want to boot-a-brother to curb over this one? I am refering to the post about the letter from Bethel Students posted elsewhere.

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