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jessemorrell
Registered Member
Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 1/19/2008 1:05 PM (GMT -6) |   | WHAT IS ETERNITY??
There are two schools of thought on this topic:
1. Eternity is a timeless realm without succession, duration, or sequence. There is no "before" or "after" in eternity. All past, present, and future is at an "Eternal Now".
2. Eternity is never ending time, without beginning or end. It is forever time, time from everlasting to everlasting.
WHAT DID THE EARLY CHURCH BELIEVE?
POSITION ONE:
Augustine and those of his thought believed that eternity was a timeless realm. This was also the Philosophy of Plato and other heathen philosophers.
Eastern Cultist Philosopher Enneads of Plotinus :
"We know Eternity as a Life changelessly motionless ... not this now and now that other, but always all; not existing now in one mode and now in another, but a consummation without part or interval. All its content is in immediate concentration as at one point; nothing in it ever knows development; all remains identical within itself, knowing nothing of change... What future, in fact could bring to that Being anything which it does not now possess ... as it can never come to be anything at present outside it, so necessarily it cannot include any past; ... futurity, similarly is banned; nothing could be yet to come to it. ... one which never turns to any kind outside itself that has never received any accession that is now receiving none and never will receive any .... " (Third Ennead VII,4-5, p.120-121)
Augustine in "The City Of God" -
"... It is not as if the knowledge of God were of various kinds, knowing in different ways things which as yet are not, things which are and things which have been. For not in our fashion does He look forward to what is future, nor what is present, nor back upon what is past; but in a manner quite different and far and profoundly remote from our way of thinking. For He does not pass from this to that by transition of thought, but beholds all things with absolute unchangeableness; so that of those things which emerge in time, the future indeed are not yet, and the present are now and the past no longer are; but all of these are by Him comprehended in his stable and eternal Presence. ... nor does His present knowledge differ from that which it ever was or shall be, for those variations of time, past, present ad future through they alter our knowledge, do not affect His... Neither is there any growth from thought to thought in the conceptions of Him in whose spiritual vision all things which He knows are at once embraced." (City of God XI Ch. 21 p.333)
Augustine in his "Confessions" -
"...in the Eternal nothing passeth, but the whole is present; whereas no time is all at once present: and that all time past, is driven on by time to come, and all to come followeth upon the past; and all past and to come, is created, and flows out of that which is ever present... see how eternity [is] ever still-standing, neither past nor to come." (Confessions Book XI p.262)
Augustine in a sermon -
"Eternity is stability, but in time variety; in Eternity all things stand still, in time one thing comes, another succeeds." (Nicen and Post-Nicean Fathers, Volume 6, Sermon LXVII, p.)
In other words, "eternity" according to this philosophical view is not time "forever and ever" but eternity is rather the absence of time, a stagnant stand-still without any succession, duration, chronology, or sequence; from which God looks upon and dwells in all of time - past, present, and future simultaneously. God is not "everlasting" in the sense of never ceasing duration, but God is at a "ever stand-still" in the sense of absent of the succession of duration, dwelling in the past, present, and future all at once.
POSITION TWO:
While Augustine and those after him believed eternity to be timelessness, the primitive Church before Augustine believed it to be everlasting time.
Oscar Cullmann -
"Eternity is understood in Primitive Christianity only as endlessly extended time. It should be added that the erroneous importations into Primitive Christian thinking of the Platonic contrast between time and timeless eternity has no connection with the few 'marginal passages' that mention the existence of God before the creation and after the end of the world. It connects rather the biblical distinction between the two ages, the 'present' and 'future' age."
Oscar Cullman, Christ and Time: The Primitive Christian Concept of Time and History, 3rd ed. (New York: Gordon Press, 1977) pp. 65-66.
Nelson Pike -
Pike comments on the early Christian creeds: "Christ, begotten of the Father 'before the ages - aeons' (Nicene Creed, A.D. 381)... This phrase occurs in previous personal confessions - Lucian, Cyril, Eusebius, and Epiphanius; the Creed of Chalcedon and the Athanasian Creed. It appears to be a firm part of tradition.
"Why is it said that He was 'begotten before the worlds?'... 'That none should think there was ever a time when He was not. In other words, by this is expressed that Jesus is the Son of God from everlasting, even as God the Father is from everlasting.' (Larger Catechism of the Eastern Church)... The point seems to be that to 'exist before the ages' is to exist at all moments in time."
Nelson Pike, God and Timelessness (New York: Schocken Books, 1970), p. 180.
Others have conceived of eternity as everlasting time since the primitive Church.
John Locke -
I ask those who say they have a positive idea of eternity whether their idea of eternity includes succession or not... The notion they have of duration forces them to conceive that whatever has duration of a longer continuance today than it was yesterday... nothing [is] more inconceivable to me than duration without succession... But if our weak apprehensions cannot separation succession from any duration whatsoever, our idea of eternity can be nothing but an infinite succession, of moments of duration wherein anything does exist."
John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Peter H. Niddith, ed (New York: Oxford University Press, 1975), Bk. II, p. 172
WHAT DOES THE BIBLE TEACH?
IS ETERNITY IN SCRIPTURE TIMELESSNESS OR INFINITE TIME?
I have never heard any good arguments from the scriptures to prove eternity as timelessness, but from my own study of the scriptures I have concluded that eternity is infinite time. That God, being an eternal being, means God has no beginning or end. And that eternal life is life without ending.
Eternity as never ending succession:
ETERNITY FOR GOD:
Job 36:26 "Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the NUMBER of His YEARS be searched out."
Psa 102:27 "But thou art the same, and THY YEARS shall have NO END."
Heb 1:12 "thou art the same, and THY YEARS shall not fail."
The word "fail" here is "ekleipō" which means "cease" or "stop". So the years [time] of the Lord will never cease or stop.
ETERNITY FOR THE SINFUL:
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up FOREVER AND EVER: and they have no read DAY NOR NIGHT..."
Rev 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where the best and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented DAY AND NIGHT FOREVER AND EVER."
ETERNITY FOR THE HOLY:
Rev 4:8 "they rest not DAY AND NIGHT saying Holy, holy, holy Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come"
Rev 7:15 "Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him DAY AND NIGHT in his temple."
All of these scriptures represent eternity for God, eternity for the sinful, and eternity for the holy as never ending time, as opposed to timelessness.
LOGICAL ARGUMENTS
If eternity were timelessness for God:
- God could not be active. Timelessness would be a stand-still. Activity requires time. God could not think, feel, or act unless He experienced time.
If eternity were timelessness for the sinful (eternal damnation):
- They would in fact spend no "time" in hell. They could not think or feel. They would in effect suffer no pain in hell since pain requires both conscious thought and conscious feelings. And there can be no successive consciousness without time.
If eternity were timelessness for the holy (eternal life):
- We couldn't enjoy or worship God. Enjoyment and worship requires both feeling and thought. Worship is also activity and there can be no activity without succession.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/19/2008 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | |
There are two kinds of people in the world, those who believe there are two kinds of people in the world and those who don't.
Robert Benchley, Benchley's Law of Distinction, US actor, author, & humorist (1889 - 1945)
There are more than two. But I appreciate what can be learned by studying the two above.
I can point you to a two-thousand year a Christian tradition that does NOT say "God [can] not be active." But it DOES sing "For unto us a Child is born, the preeternal God."
This is explainable because, for the most part, it tried hard to avoid confusing ousia (nature) and hypostasis (person). So, God is certainly not frozen. I agree with you on that.
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/19/2008 6:53 PM (GMT -6) | |
Sahid said...
"Preeternal" sure sounds like it implies "inactive," and etymologically it should, but it may well mean something different in the jargon of EO. Well put, Z.
Then, in favor of Jesse's points, sometimes not so fine a point was necessary -- Christ's eternality with the Father (counter to the Arian notion of the Logos being the first-created) was the reason for 'eternity'-speak. Honed statements and terms ussually have a reason in EO. In scholatic they spawn themselves.
Thanks, Z.
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PotOnWheel
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Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/19/2008 6:57 PM (GMT -6) | |
jessemorrell said...
If God is not frozen then God is active. And if God is active then God is sequential or successive.
If God is not sequential or successive then God is not active. And if God is not active then God is frozen.
The Father is eternally Father, and the Son is eternally Son. And the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son.
God is from before-eternity God.
For some reason(s) these were necessary statements to make.
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/19/2008 10:32 PM (GMT -6) | | | Thanks, Jessie.
Here's something else I found:
What`s in A Hymn: Hard words of Christmas
by Fr. Seraphim Dedes, ST. NEKTARIOS, Charlotte, NC
Pre-eternal. Eternal normally means being without
beginning or end, existing outside of time.
Here it is applied to our Lord who, as one of the
Holy Trinity and the Word of God, is eternal. The
pre-prefix is emphasizing His preexistence, together
with God the Father. We don`t debate this
anymore, but in the 4th century and for many
years after, there was a heresy that taught that
"there was a time when he was not." So by calling
Jesus pre-eternal God, we affirm our belief
that He is and always was the Son of God the
Father, and as such is able to save us.
Ineffable = Incapable of being expressed; indescribable,
too big for words. Everything about
God, our Church`s theology, is ineffable. Even
when we do use words to explain or describe,
they only go so far. There were Christian men
who were well versed in ancient Greek philosophy
and the ideas of Plato and Aristotle. They
thought they could describe God using philosophical
categories. They superimposed Greek
philosophy on the Christian Gospel. And the
result was heresy. It was the job of the holy Fathers
to use the same philosophical language to
unravel the mess. But the Gospel is simple and
we don`t need philosophy to believe and repent
and love God and our fellow man. If we keep the
Lord`s commandments and pray unceasingly, He
will reveal himself to us mystically in our hearts.
This experience is ineffable, as is the mystery of
how the Virgin Mary gave birth to Jesus. Ineffable,
but true. And the heart, illumined by God,
rejoices in the mystery and worships the Savior
who was born.
Kontakion of Christmas
Sung from Dec. 25 - 31.
On this day the Virgin gives birth unto the Super-
essential. To the Unapproachable, earth is
providing the grotto. Angels sing and with the
shepherds offer up glory. Following a star the
Magi are still proceeding. He was born for our
salvation, a newborn Child, the pre-eternal God.
Super-essential = Above essence, beyond all
being. God has revealed himself to us as being
unity and diversity, one and three. It took years
of debate, in and out of Ecumenical Councils, to
come up with sufficient terminology to express
this: one God, one nature, one essence; three
persons, three hypostases. So we use the word
essence to indicate what is one in God. We say
it in the Creed about our Lord Jesus Christ, "...of
one essence with the Father." Yet in our hymn,
we call Him Super-essential, as surpassing all
essence. That is because God is and isn`t what
we say about Him, because we do not know His
O ur shared Orthodox faith in the Holy
Trinity defines and unites us as a Church
and as a parish community. That is why religious
education is so important to our community`s
welfare. Education is mainly effected
through reading and discourse. Its goal is to
teach us theology, the truths about God, and to
guide us to communion with Him, through
proper faith and living. Ultimately it enables us
to give thanks to God through praise and worship.
The language of worship is related to
the language of theology. The Church`s hymns
are informed by the Bible and Orthodox theology.
There is a link between the two. The
hymns are intended to remind us of the truths
we have learned through religious education.
This link is undermined when religious education
and worship are not conducted in the same
language. That is why it is such a great blessing
that our worship services are conducted in
English, that common language of ours that,
along with our common faith, unites us a community.
It is inevitable that the hymns will
contain words that are not in our regular vocabulary.
This is the case with some of the
hymns for Christmas. So, in this article, we will
try to explain some of those hard words of
Christmas.
Pre-Festal Kontakion
Sung from Nov. 26 - Dec. 24.
On this day the Virgin goes unto the
grotto to give birth to the pre-eternal Word in
an ineffable manner. Dance for joy, all the
inhabited earth, on hearing. Glorify along with
Angels and with the shepherds Him who willed
that He appear as a newborn Child, the preeternal
God.
Grotto = a natural or artificial cave. Neither
Matthew nor Luke say anything specifically
about a cave when they relate the event of our
Lord`s birth. Luke says that the Virgin Mary laid
Jesus "in a manger, because there was no
place for them in the inn." A manger is a trough
or an open box in which feed for livestock is
placed. So, Jesus was born where the innkeeper
kept the animals, maybe like a hotel
parking garage. Anyway, at the site in Bethlehem
where Jesus was born, there is a very old
church and shrine that is known throughout the
English-speaking world as the Grotto of the
Nativity. So, it makes sense to use the word
grotto here instead of cave, so that we can
make the connection with that sacred place.
nature or essence. So, we say essence, but He
is not defined or contained by that word or
concept. By adding the prefix ‘super,’ we admit
that He is beyond our capabilities to express.
That is why it was such a miracle that He was
contained in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and
that He was born as an infant.
Unapproachable. We say that God is unapproachable,
because He is uncreated, and the
uncreated is not at all like the created. We are
created, so we cannot approach the uncreated,
unless the uncreated God becomes like us.
And He did, when He became man and was
born on Christmas day. Thus, the paradox, that
earth provides a shelter to the heavenly King
and God.
Following a star, the Magi are still proceeding.
This sentence seems odd. Didn`t the three
Magi worship the baby Jesus on Christmas
day? Well, actually, no. They arrived much
later. After a careful reading of the Gospel account
in Matthew, we realize that the holy family
was in a house by the time the Magi arrived,
whereas on Christmas day, they were in the
grotto. So on Christmas day, the Magi were still
on their way. Some writers speculate that the
star of Bethlehem appeared first on Christmas
day, which means the Magi came up to two
years later, which explains why Herod ordered
the infants two years old and younger to be
killed.
Conclusion
It is good to know and understand what is going
on in church. Ignorance is not a good thing
and anything that promotes and sustains ignorance
must be avoided. That is why traditionally
the church has always used the common language
of the congregation.
That having been said, it is possible to read
and sing and hear the services in English, and
still not understand. Part of that is due to the
hard words. So we try to explain them. But the
other part is due to our inattention. Attention is
required in order to understand: attention, and
repetition over time. That explains why we sing
the same hymns, year after year. They never
grow old, they never cease to inspire. They will
always be hard to comprehend, because they
are about ineffable things, about our preeternal
and Unapproachable God, who being
Super-essential, put on our essence as well
and became man, so that we could become
like He is, God. To Him be glory for ever.
Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Atlanta
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 1/20/2008 2:42 PM (GMT -6) | |
jessemorrell said...
Yes,
God the Father has been eternally God the Father. That is, there was never a "time" ... That's a good way to say it -- focuses on us (in time).
But I also like what "before all ages" contributes. Specifically not allowing a "time" before the Son (as in Arianism).
Everything starts with one idea and spans out in one benefitial way or another.
Interesting. (Thanks H. and Z.)
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jessemorrell
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Total Posts : 77
| Posted 1/20/2008 4:14 PM (GMT -6) | | One point which is sometimes brought up in the discussion of God being in time or outside of time is the transcendence or "otherness" of God.
The transcendence of God still remains even with the view that God is in time. God's transcendence is that He is infinite while we are finite. God, in time, has had no beginning or end (infinite), God is uncreated (eternal). We however have had a definite beginning in our linear existence in time, so we are finite and created.
Granted, God dwelling in a linear existence without beginning is incomprehensible to our finite minds. But that does not mean it is impossible for reality, only impossible for finite comprehension. It is the same impossibility that eternal life is. Eternal life, time without end, is impossible to fully comprehend with finite minds but it is in no ways impossible for reality, because in fact, Christians will live eternally in reality.
------------------
Starkman,
I cannot conceive of a personal reality without sequence. There are essential elements to personal reality: will, thought, and feeling. These are the ingredients that make up personality and there can be no personal reality without personality. But there can be no will, thought, or feeling without sequence, therefore there can be no personal reality without sequence.
Consider also how there an be no sentient existence or self-consciousness without sequence. Sentient existence requires self-consciousness and self-consciousness requires sequence. This is really simple enough: sentient existence or self-consciousness requires thought and thought requires sequence.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
www.OpenAirOutreach.comPost Edited (jessemorrell) : 1/20/2008 3:18:20 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 1/22/2008 8:38 AM (GMT -6) | |
jessemorrell said...One point which is sometimes brought up in the discussion of God being in time or outside of time is the transcendence or "otherness" of God. The transcendence of God still remains even with the view that God is in time. God's transcendence is that He is infinite while we are finite. God, in time, has had no beginning or end (infinite), God is uncreated (eternal). We however have had a definite beginning in our linear existence in time, so we are finite and created. Granted, God dwelling in a linear existence without beginning is incomprehensible to our finite minds. But that does not mean it is impossible for reality, only impossible for finite comprehension. It is the same impossibility that eternal life is. Eternal life, time without end, is impossible to fully comprehend with finite minds but it is in no ways impossible for reality, because in fact, Christians will live eternally in reality. ------------------ Starkman, I cannot conceive of a personal reality without sequence. There are essential elements to personal reality: will, thought, and feeling. These are the ingredients that make up personality and there can be no personal reality without personality. But there can be no will, thought, or feeling without sequence, therefore there can be no personal reality without sequence. Consider also how there an be no sentient existence or self-consciousness without sequence. Sentient existence requires self-consciousness and self-consciousness requires sequence. This is really simple enough: sentient existence or self-consciousness requires thought and thought requires sequence.
I'm in agreement with you in regard to your comments to my post. You have, in essence, uttered my thoughts about sequencing as it pertains to people's concept of time. Hence,
Thanks,
Starkman
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jessemorrell
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Date Joined Sep 2007
Total Posts : 77
| Posted 1/29/2008 3:47 PM (GMT -6) | | A HEBREW WORD STUDY
Isaiah talked of God as "the High and loftly One that inhabits eternity".
The Hebrew word is "ad" and it means "duration, in the sense of perpetuity". It means, "ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end."
A GREEK WORD STUDY
The New Testament translated the word "aionios" as "eternal" in some places and "everlasting" in others.
The word "aionios" means:
1. Perpetual
2. Without beginning or end
3. Without beginning
4. Without end, never to cease, everlasting.
In the Greek, the New Testament word for eternal does not mean "without time" but rather means "without end".
And let it be remembered that the Early Church would have read the original Greek New Testament and would have clearly understood what the word "eternal" meant in Greek.
But Augustine however knew very little Greek. Augustine read the bible in Latin.
AN ENGLISH WORD STUDY
Webster defined eternity as "Duration or continuance without beginning or end"
MORE FROM THE EARLY CHURCH
I have before me a dictionary of early Christian beliefs and I'm reading their quotes on eternal punishment. It seems clear that they did not mean a stand-still frozen existences in hell when they talked about eternal d**nation.
But they seems to clearly be talking about a linear consciousness full of agony and grief. Certainly, there can be no agony or grief in a stand-still frozen realm since these require feelings and thoughts, and feelings and thoughts require sequence or duration.
Justin Martyr said, "Some are sent to be punished UNCEASINGLY unto judgment and condemnation of fire." Eternal life and eternal condemnation, is not a "stand-still" (the word Augustine used for eternity) but eternal life and eternal condemnation is "unceasing" (the word Justin Martyr used) Again Justin said, "He goes to the EVERLASTING punishment". It is clear the Justin did not see "eternal" as "stand-still" but rather "eternal" as "everlasting". So eternal life or eternal condemnation was either everlasting life or everlasting condemnation. Likewise, when the bible says God is eternal, that means that God is everlasting. What Justin calls "ETERNAL fire" in one place he calls "punishment for ENDLESS DURATION" elsewhere. Justin used the words "everlasting", "unceasing" and "endless duration" synonymous with "eternal".
Theophilus spoke of "life everlasting" for the righteous. Not life at a "stand-still". And he spoke of "everlasting fire" for sinners, not "stand-still" existence.
Irenaeus spoke of "eternal fire" in contrast with "LENGTH OF DAYS FOREVER AND EVER". He also used the term "everlasting d**nation". So "eternal" to Irenaeus was the same as "everlasting" which was the same as "length of days forever and ever". He also spoke of eternity as "forever" which he described as "constant advancement". Elsewhere he described the "eternal" as "WITHOUT END" or "NEVER-ENDING".
Hermas used the term "FOREVER" to describe eternity.
Clement of Alexandria used the terminology of "everlasting contemplation". He also used the word "ENDLESS".
Tertullian used the terms "eternal" and "everlasting" synonymously (like the Greek does). He spoke of "eternity in ENDLESS fire".
Mark Minucius Felix spoke of eternity as having "neither limit nor TERMINATION".
Hippolytus said that "eternal" was "WITHOUT END".
Origen said that those who face "eternal fire" will "PERPETUALLY endure torture".
Commodianus said that those who receive eternal condemnation will suffer "FOR ALL TIME".
Cyprian said that "eternal" was "PERPETUAL". He also said, "ETERNAL punishments in the fires of Gehenna... an EVER-burning...Nor will there be any means by which AT ANY TIME they can have either rest or an END... INFINITE tortures." And elsewhere as "NEVER-ENDING" and "IMMORTALITY". According to Cyprian, eternity was not without time but eternity was infinite time without end
Archelaus described eternity as "everlasting" a place where activities "do not CEASE".
To the Early Church, what the bible meant by "eternal life" and "eternal death" was the same as "everlasting life" and "everlasting death". It is the same Greek word. Eternal simply meant "forever" or without end of time, not without time.
Eternity is simply, as Justin called it, "endless duration" or what Irenaeus called "never-ending" and "without end", or what Clement of Alexandria said was "endless". It was, as Commodianus said, "for all time" or what Cyprian called "perpetual".
THE SONG AMAZING GRACE
I realized recently that the song "Amazing Grace" gives us a great picture of eternity:
"When we’ve been there ten thousand years, Bright shining as the sun, We've no less days to sing God’s praise Than when we’ve first begun."
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
www.OpenAirOutreach.comPost Edited (jessemorrell) : 1/29/2008 2:59:41 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 1/30/2008 6:20 PM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman said...
Two things: a) how can there ever be no sequence? What do you make of this, Kieth?
Volf, page 208
3.2 Perichoretic Personhood
1. In their mutual giving and receiving, the trinitarian persons are not only interdependent, but also mutually internal, something to which the Johannine Jesus repeatedly refers: "so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (John 10:38; cl. 14:10-11; 17:21). This mutually internal abiding and interpenetration of the trinitarian persons.........determines the charcter both of the divine persons and of their unity.
Read in context HERE:
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 2/1/2008 6:09 PM (GMT -6) | |
Starkman said...
What does the above post (PoW's) have to do with sequencing? I'm lost!
Starkman
I don't know either. Truly.
I think I know what 'sequencing' is, in an everyday sence: beginning and end, before and after, first one thing and then another. Oh, and directional flow too.
But I'm not sure whether "mutually internal abiding and interpenetration" has anything to do with "sequencing."
Enchore:
Volf, page 208
3.2 Perichoretic Personhood
1. In their mutual giving and receiving, the trinitarian persons are not only interdependent, but also mutually internal, something to which the Johannine Jesus repeatedly refers: "so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father" (John 10:38; cl. 14:10-11; 17:21). This mutually internal abiding and interpenetration of the trinitarian persons.........determines the charcter both of the divine persons and of their unity.
Read in context HERE:
Maybe sequencing has nothing to do with "mutually internal abiding and interpenetration."
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jessemorrell
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Total Posts : 77
| Posted 3/26/2008 10:49 AM (GMT -6) | | This is an issue that I've been thinking about for a long time now. Is time (sequence, duration, succession) a creation of God or a natural attribute of God? Is God a dynamic God in time or is God a frozen God outside of time?
The term "timeless" is used in theology to describe God. They say that God is timeless, that is, that God experiences no sequence, no succession, no duration, that God has no past and no future, but that all is a present eternal now.
While I believe that God is eternal, that is, that God has no beginning of time and no end of time, that God is everlasting, I do not believe that God is frozen or static. And here's why:
If God is timeless:
- He must also be thoughtless
- He must also be emotionless
- He must also be decisionless
- He must also be actionless
- He must also be unconscious
All of these require time, none of these can occur or exist without sequence, duration, or succession.
And if God is these things, God is neither a personality nor a sentient being, in which case, God is not a person at all.
For the Audience of One
Jesse Morrell
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Joe McCowan
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2008
Total Posts : 39
| Posted 3/26/2008 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | |
jessemorrell said...This is an issue that I've been thinking about for a long time now. Is time (sequence, duration, succession) a creation of God or a natural attribute of God? Is God a dynamic God in time or is God a frozen God outside of time? The term "timeless" is used in theology to describe God. They say that God is timeless, that is, that God experiences no sequence, no succession, no duration, that God has no past and no future, but that all is a present eternal now. While I believe that God is eternal, that is, that God has no beginning of time and no end of time, that God is everlasting, I do not believe that God is frozen or static. And here's why: If God is timeless: - He must also be thoughtless - He must also be emotionless - He must also be decisionless - He must also be actionless - He must also be unconscious All of these require time, none of these can occur or exist without sequence, duration, or succession. And if God is these things, God is neither a personality nor a sentient being, in which case, God is not a person at all.
I agree completely. The term "eternal" may need to be replaced by "infinite" though when referencing God, in order to avoid confusion.
Grace and Peace, Joe
(edited for clarity) Post Edited (Joe McCowan) : 3/26/2008 1:54:42 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 9890
| Posted 3/26/2008 11:02 AM (GMT -6) | | |
JESSIE ASKS: "Is time (sequence, duration, succession) a creation of God or a natural attribute of God?"
AND JESSIE ALSO ASKS: "Is God a dynamic God in time or is God a frozen God outside of time?"
Looks from here that you assume, Jessie, that Time cannot be a creation AND have God be dynamic... BOTH.
But it's not necessary to assume that.
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