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Tom
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| Posted 7/27/2002 8:56 AM (GMT -6) |   | This might not mean anything to anybody, but I’m pursuing a couple of things in my head and wanted to toss out a thought here about the worth and value of God and jump from there to the worth and value of human beings.
First, God’s worth is inherent. She doesn’t derive her worth and value from anything outside herself.
Secondly, God’s worth is infinite.
On to us…
Our worth is derived. Whatever value we have, we possess by virtue of God’s image in us, her love for us, etc.. We “get” our worth and value from God, we do not possess it independently. Of what value are gold and, say, garden dirt? Only what WE place on them. Gold is valuable because WE deem it valuable. But as an element in the universe it’s of no more inherent value than any other element. We have value to God because she deems us valuable to her. I think that value is reflected in God’s image in us. And if this means anything, it means at least that the Fall did NOT totally eradicate the image of God in us. God still values us.
Our worth is also finite. Doesn’t this follow? We often claim to want to affirm the “infinite value of others” by sharing God’s love with them, but really, how can we be of “infinite” value to God? Our value may be inestimable to us, but not to God. Yes? No?
We cannot measure God’s worth and value, so our worship (if worship is ascribing infinite worth to God because of who she is, celebrating that worth, and recognizing that worth in all we think, say, and do) is NEVER finished or adequate. Am I on here?
Why does a God of inherent and infinite worth accept imperfect worship?
Maybe what makes our worship acceptable is that it’s ALL we are and have to give. The widow’s mite?
I’m rambling.
If God does this, then what ought to be our estimate of the worth and value of others? And how ought we to accept the imperfections of others who offer all they have and are?
I’ve been struggling for few months with the national leaders I work with. I’ve tried for a long time to get us all dreaming the same dream, playing off the same piece of music, etc.. The years I’ve lived here I’ve lived to help them be their best, achieve their most for God and others. Now I find myself marginalized because of my theology, and stand by watching them chase their own individual dreams each in their own world.
What d’ya do when you desire and dream more for people you love than they do for themselves and are rejected marginalized whenever you try to influence them?
I guess what I’m wandering is when do you know when it’s time to move on? And is moving on an unloving thing to do? Does God “move on” pass people?
Sheesh, am I wandering or what?
Later,
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 07/27/2002 4:50:29 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Electra
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Total Posts : 611
| Posted 7/27/2002 10:59 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom: First, God’s worth is inherent. She doesn’t derive her worth and value from anything outside herself.
Secondly, God’s worth is infinite.
Electra: Amen.
Tom: On to us…
Our worth is derived. Whatever value we have, we possess by virtue of God’s image in us, her love for us, etc.. We “get” our worth and value from God, we do not possess it independently. Of what value are gold and, say, garden dirt? Only what WE place on them. God is valuable because WE deem it valuable. But as an element in the universe it’s of no more inherent value than any other element. We have value to God because she deems us valuable to her. I think that value is reflected in God’s image in us. And if this means anything, it means at least that the Fall did NOT totally eradicate the image of God in us. God still values us.
Electra: Agreed.
Tom: Our worth is also finite. Doesn’t this follow? We often claim to want to affirm the “infinite value of others” by sharing God’s love with them, but really, how can we be of “infinite” value to God? Our value may be inestimable to us, but not to God. Yes? No?
Electra: Maybe we should think of the infinite worth God gives us analogously to God’s infinite intelligence. If God’s love is infinite, it cannot be added to or subtracted from. It is not diminished by being divided up or spread out between billions and billions of people any more than God’s intelligence is diminished by being divided up or spread out between billions and billions of possibilities. Given the cross, how can we be anything less than of “infinite” value to God?
Tom: We cannot measure God’s worth and value, so our worship (if worship is ascribing infinite worth to God because of who she is, celebrating that worth, and recognizing that worth in all we think, say, and do) is NEVER finished or adequate. Am I on here?
Electra: You’re on.
Tom: Why does a God of inherent and infinite worth accept imperfect worship?
Electra: Why would anyone hide a treasure in a jar of clay?
Tom: Maybe what makes our worship acceptable is that it’s ALL we are and have to give. The widow’s mite?
Electra: I like that.
Tom: If God does this, then what ought to be our estimate of the worth and value of others? And how ought we to accept the imperfections of others who offer all they have and are?
Electra: Forgiveness is what enables God to accept our imperfect worship of her infinite worth. And forgiveness is what enables us to accept the imperfections of others and love them according to their infinite God-given worth without being conditioned by whatever imperfections they may have.
Tom: I’ve been struggling for few months with the national leaders I work with. I’ve tried for a long time to get us all dreaming the same dream, playing off the same piece of music, etc.. The years I’ve lived here I’ve lived to help them be their best, achieve their most for God and others. Now I find myself marginalized because of my theology, and stand by watching them chase their own individual dreams each in their own world. What d’ya do when you desire and dream more for people you love than they do for themselves and are rejected marginalized whenever you try to influence them?
Electra: You might walk away (like Sister Luke). You might stay. Either way, you grieve.
Tom: I guess what I’m wondering is when do you know when it’s time to move on?
Electra: This is a difficult question. But there is a point where Jesus warns his disciples not to cast their pearls before swine, and tells them when to shake the dust of their feet and move on. There were points in Abraham’s life when God called him to part with his nephew and his concubine and even his beloved son. There were points in Paul’s ministry when he parted ways with fellow ministers. Sometimes they were reconciled, sometimes they were not.
Tom: And is moving on an unloving thing to do?
Electra: Is staying an unloving thing to do? Both these questions are important. But given our finitude (both in terms of intelligence and love), they may also be unanswerable. So maybe it’s not so much a matter of calculating the most loving action—whether you stay or go you will do so out of love. Maybe it’s more a matter of listening. Do you have a sense for where God is calling you?
Tom: Does God “move on” pass people?
Electra: Never. God died for everyone. The Body of Christ is living and it is always on the move. You are only on small part of it. Christ may move you in a different direction, but that doesn’t mean that Christ “moves on” past the people your current context.
Blessings on you, Tom. Thanks for sharing your “rambling” with us. You are in my prayers.
Electra
~·• kyrie eleison ·~•~· christe eleison ·~•~· kyrie eleison •·~ | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 7/27/2002 3:26 PM (GMT -6) | | Brother Tom,
Two things:
First, as I read your post, I was considering the Trinity; there is love among each of the members. This being so, then does this concept of member-expression love carry over to the expression of worth? If the members of the Trinity are in an expression of love among each other, do the members also express worth (or live in an expression of worth) towards each other? If so, there's a question that comes to mind regarding the philisophical implications this has regarding God's love and worth: how are God's love and worth inherent and inifinite in their expression?
In one of our discussions some time ago on this site, there was a heavy dialog on goodness as to how it pertains to God; inherent or by will. In the dialogs, I considered that if God is "good" inherently--this being in a context of no creation in existance, just the Trinity--how, then, can an expression of something called "good" be expressed by God or among the members of the Trinity if there is no evil/bad in existance to compare it with? How would God, in Trinitarian form, consider any expression among the members good? It's just God being God.
I considered the fact that God knows good from evil--the potential of evil before it has ever surfaced--but this only comes into play as an expression (expressing good) when there is evil in existance . . . or does it?
So, if God's love and worth are inherent and infinite, how is this expressed among the Trinity when there's nothing to compare worth or love to other then themselves--perfect beings who know of the potential for loveless and worthlessness but do not live in such existances among themselves?
And you, Tom, thought you were wandering or what!
Second, Tom, my heart goes out for your struggle. May the Lord who's rich in love and wisdom, give you such in your situation.
For the love and worth,
Starkman
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 7/29/2002 5:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, with Electra, I think that though we are finite, we yet have INFINITE worth. For, as you yourself recognized, the worth something has it what it is GIVEN, which means it is dependent on the GIVER, not the GETTER. God ascribes infinite worth to us by giving HIMSELF for us on Calvary.
In my mind, this has nothing to do with whether you should stay or leave your colleagues. As a disciple, you are commanded to love them whatever you decide to do. At the same time, ascribing infinite worth to them, in agreement with God, doesn’t itself tell you what to do. With Electra, I think you need to listen to God. At the same time, I think you need to carefully consider whether your potential to impact the world is enhanced or deterred by continuing to work with them. There are a number of other factors to consider as well – e.g. how much do you enjoy working where you are? What about your family? What about other ministry opportunities? Etc…. The only one who can balance all this is YOU. But it doesn’t affect at all whether you should love them or not.
Tom: Does God "move on" pass people? Electra: Never. God died for everyone.
Doc: I of course agree that God died for everyone. Yet, it also seems there are times when God sees that a person is hopeless. He "gives them over" to do what they want (Rom. 1:24-27). He withdraws his Spirit from them (Gen 6). His intent now is not how he can restore them, but only how he can weave their irrevocable obstinacy into his sovereign purposes. He hardens Pharoahs heart and raises him up to make a point (Rom. 9). Only God can when it is tragically appropriate to operate this way. I don’t think WE are ever permitted to "pass over" someone on the basis of OUR observations.
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 7/29/2002 7:06 AM (GMT -6) | | Doc: "God ascribes infinite worth to us by giving HIMSELF for us on Calvary."
I think that that is what Nyberg says. (Thunberg's book) But it says much more to say that our worth is rooted in the fact that we are created in the image of God. The worth is intrinsic, not merely extrinsic. | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 7/31/2002 3:12 AM (GMT -6) | | God values US just as much as he values himself? Of infinite value? Might we just say that in Christ the infinitely valuable God acted on our behalf, valuing us a great deal, inestimably in fact. But infinitely? I mean, if it's true that's OK! I don't WANT to be worth less than I really am in God's eyes. But I have a hard time ascribing the same worth to humans that I ascribe to God.
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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| Posted 7/31/2002 6:03 AM (GMT -6) | | By infinite, do we mean we are forever valued by God, or do we mean our worth cannot be calculated because it has no end as to its value. If the latter, I'd be inclined to agree with Tom. Hmmm!
For our worth,
Starkman | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/3/2002 2:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Hey Starkman-
Do you get the idea that by not replying to your and my last post they're not affirming that our worth is infinite? Or maybe we are of infinite value but our ideas aren't? 
So, do we ascribe to people the same value and worth that we ascribe to God?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 08/03/2002 7:15:20 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Starkman
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| Posted 8/3/2002 3:17 PM (GMT -6) | | You know, Tom, I've found it a lot lately that my posts on a thread tend to end the thread. Like, I feel diseased! 
But to your post I say, "You love me, you really love me!" (Ol' Sally Fields will never live that one down!)
For the Oscar,
Starkman
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Tom
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| Posted 8/3/2002 7:35 PM (GMT -6) | | Just so that your post won't be the last post on this thread and you won't feel that you killed it, let me say Amen! to Sally Fields! 
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
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| Posted 8/4/2002 3:40 PM (GMT -6) | | Who says this thread should end?  Tom raised a great question that has yet to be addressed. If WE have "infinite worth" and God has "infinite worth," does God see US as having the same worth as himself?
Here's my take. I DO believe we have infinite worth before God because a) Christ died for us and b) we are placed "in Christ" and loved by the Father with the SAME LOVE he has for Christ (Jn 17:20-21). Yet, we are NOT Christ. The difference is that God is the WORTH GIVER and we are the WORTH RECEIVER. He is the CREATOR and we are the created. This is the eternal distinctness of us and God, but the distinctness isn't an eternal differentiation in VALUE before God.
To me, this is the most glorious aspect of the Good News. We PARTICIPATE IN THE LOVE OF THE TRIUNE GOD. THE SAME LOVE!!!
John 17:20-26. “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The [same] glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Father, I desire that those also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory, which you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
“Righteous Father, the world does not know you, but I know you; and these know that you have sent me. I made your name known to them, and I will make it known, so that the [same] love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”
WE DANCE WITH THE TRIUNE GOD!
"In Christ...the ONLY THING that matters is faith energized by love." Galatians 5:6 | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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| Posted 8/4/2002 7:51 PM (GMT -6) | | I see your point Doc. God's love for us in Christ is infinite. In Christ we are infinitely valued by God. I'm with ya on this.
But doesn't the creator/creature distinction, e.g. the fact that God possesses value in and of herself whereas our value is assinged us by God, reduce to a difference in value and worth between us and God? Whatever worth we have we are given. Whatever worth God has she possess inherently. God is inheretnly and infinitely worthy while we are not. But isn't God's worth infinite precisely because it is inherent? And isn't our inherent worth finite precisey because we are created and contingent? And isn't this the reason we worship God and not other humans? Inherent infinite worth demands worship while derived worth does not. I just have a hard time seeing any "derived" worth as "infinite" in value. I do agree that God's love for us IS infinite. And if this is so, then it seems to follow that God must value us infinitely. But this is difficult to say because it amounts to God valuing us as much as he values himself. And do we want to say that?
Tom
"Every saint has a history and every sinner a future." Oscar Wilde
Edited by - TGB on 08/05/2002 01:48:12 AM
Edited by - TGB on 08/05/2002 01:50:28 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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PotOnWheel
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| Posted 8/5/2002 5:50 AM (GMT -6) | | Tom, maybe by Saturday you can decide what "worth" is. This all seems so abstract.
I'll drop a quote from one of my favorite Reformation theologians, though (I won't say who.):
quote:
"No man can survey himself without forthwith turning his thoughts towards the God in whom he lives and moves; because it is perfectly obvious, that the endowments which we possess cannot possibly be from ourselves; nay, that our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone."
"Our very being is nothing else than subsistence in God alone."
"Those blessings which unceasingly distil to us from heaven, are like streams conducting us to the fountain."
"Thus, our feeling of ignorance, vanity, want, weakness, in short, depravity and corruption, reminds us, that in the Lord, and none but He, dwell the true light of wisdom, solid virtue, exuberant goodness."
"It is evident that man never attains to a true self-knowledge until he have previously contemplated the face of God, and come down after such contemplation to look into himself."
...human beings "are never duly touched and impressed with a conviction of their insignificance, until they have contrasted themselves with the majesty of God."
___(name withheld)___ rejects the so-called knowledge of God that consists in knowing "what the essence of God is," because such knowledge will "only delude us with frigid speculations." In other words, he rejects any knowledge of God that is simply theoretical knowledge, which has no implications for the life of the knower. He asks, "What avails it, in short, to know a God with whom we have nothing to do?" Rather, a knowledge of God should lead the knower to have fear and reverence towards and then to seek every good from God and, when received, to give credit to God alone.
___(name withheld)___ believes that such a denial of the existence of God, however, is not a denial of the "essence" of God, in the sense of denying that God actually exist, which is impossible for human beings, but it is a denial of God's involvement with his creation, which is contrary to the nature of God.
___(name withheld)___ writes, "To show how detestable this madness is, the Psalmist introduces them as distinctly denying that there is a God, because although they do not disown his essence, they rob him of his justice and providence, and represent him as sitting idly in heaven." The denial of God is really the denial of the justice of God, so that the one who denies the existence of God is really denying that God will judge human beings: such a person no longer has the fear of God, as David says in Pss 36:1; 10:11.
I want to ask outloud whether there is a danger in such discussions of wandering into the theoretical. Since we "subsist" in God, it is God's Glories--his actions--that we might focus on.
Edited by - Al2Si2H4O9 on 08/05/2002 10:53:43 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713
| Posted 8/6/2002 1:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Can I say something?
What I hear Tom saying:
Valuing something infinitely is like saying that something is one's Absolute or even "Ultimate Concern." We say that God has infinite worth because his worth is inherent rather than derived. And God is to be worshipped because of this infinite worth. And this is why ONLY God is worshipped...because ONLY God has inherent worth. But this causes problems when we consider not only how we are to evaluate OURSELVES, but how we are to perceive GOD'S evaluation of us. If "infinite" worth is INEXTRICABLY LINKED to the nature of an object (ie whether it has INHERENT or DERIVED worth), then how can God view us with infinite worth...and how could we ever view ourselves as having infinite worth? And even if we were, somehow, to provide ourselves with infinite worth, can there be MORE THAN ONE infinitely worthy object? This doesn't seem possible.
I (Tom) see what Doc is saying:
God is infinitely worthy. Christ is God. When WE are in Christ, WE are in God. In evaluating Christ (Godself) as infinitely worthy, God evaluates US as infinitely worthy AS IF we were Christ.
In that scenario, there is only ONE infinitely worthy object...but more than one PARTAKER in that object's worth. (Similiar to our "partaking of the divine nature" perhaps?) This would seem to fix the problem. But also notice that the Creator/creation distinction is being blurred here. Doesn't the ontological separation between God and creation make a significant difference EVEN THOUGH all things are being reconciled into Christ? And if so, doesn't this have a logical effect on how worth is to be granted to Creation AS DISTINCT from the Creator? If we take the ontological differences seriously...and yet STILL try to assert God evaluating humanity infinitely...don't we come to the conclusion that God values US as much as God does Godself?
Meph:
If I'm right about what Tom's thinking, I have some things to say...
First of all, I don't thing that we should say that God has infinite value merely because of God's "inherent" nature. Let me explain why. The only way that I see someone could argue that God has inherent VALUE is to...
--first, ASSUME that existence ITSELF has inherent value
--second, assert that God has necessary existence
--conclude that BECAUSE God possesses necessary existence, God also possesses a correlating inherent value.
--THEN say that ONLY things that have inherent value are to be valued infinitely.
Things then follow. Because we have CONTINGENT existence rather than NECESSARY existence, we have DERIVATIVE, not "inherent", value. Moreover, we cannot be viewed as having infinite value...from a looking at the ontological differences between Creator and creation. But Doc doesn't want us to take this as a differentiation IN VALUE...just merely in POSITION (ie "worth-giver" vs "worth-receiver") But as we've shown hopefully, it's just not that simple. The ontological differences DO have to be taken into account.
But, to me, this whole thing is problematic. No matter how many people you read, I don't see how one can get around that fact that it is WE (human beings) who ultimately place worth upon existence! Sure, we say that existence is "worth more" than non-existence...but can we not admit that this very sense of valuation wouldn't even EXIST without a sentient being doing the valuing? Worth, as we understand the term, would be meaningless in an existence WITHOUT sentient beings. In other words...
Value is ATTRIBUTE to something by SOMEONE...always.
So what am I basically saying? Merely that God's value is NOT inherent in the ultimate sense. God's worth is what WE decide based upon our presuppositions about reality. Using this line of thought, we could say the SAME THING about our fellow humans. Our sense of worth for fellow human beings are based upon our ultimate presuppositions about reality. Don't believe me? Ask yourself why Christian theists place so much of a premium on the "Imago Dei" idea? Uh huh.
So, we see that if we look from this standpoint, NO BEING, including God, has "inherent" value in the truest sense...and that what is to be "infinitely valued" is pretty much in the mind of the beholder...based upon that beholder's view of ultimate reality.
Just a thought.
Edited by - Mephi2K on 08/06/2002 6:19:52 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Mephi2K
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Total Posts : 713
| Posted 8/6/2002 1:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Following up, thing about this. Let's say that I were to grant the existence of God and God's necessary existence. UPON WHAT BASIS, would one say that this NECESSITATES God being an object of worship for me? What if I don't possess the needed presuppositions to get to that conclusions? And be honest, what if YOU don't either?? Think about it. If this were the case...that infinite worth (worthship) were granted on the basis of necessary existence, wouldn't the First Cause/God of the philosophers be an adequate item to be worshipped...NOT NECESSARILY the theistic God? Would you really worship a "First Cause" God? I don't think so.
See what I'm saying?
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Starkman
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| Posted 8/6/2002 5:01 PM (GMT -6) | | It is precisely because God is infinite (from a finite perspective) that great consideration must be given to the idea that His worth is infinite; infinite from everlasting and infinite in value. The members of the Trinity qualify for sentient beings/persons to both comprehend this and to instill its truth to a created order; anything else.
Meph said: "wouldn't the First Cause/God of the philosophers be an adequate item to be worshipped...NOT NECESSARILY the theistic God?"
The answer has to be no, because one's conjecture of deity doesn't make it deity. However, The God of the Bible, as Francis Schaeffer stated so eloquently, is there and He is not silent. He has communicated with us, presuppositions or no presuppositions. Common, everyday language sufficed. And part of that language-communication largely delt with worship, worshiping this God of the Bible. That's worth communicated by deity not of the worshiper.
That there is only one necessary infinite being does, however, ask the question: just because there's only one necessary infinite being, is this being's worth necessarily infinite? If this being had not communicate with us as being such, then the question would be open-ended. This, however, is not the case.
Starkman
Edited by - Starkman on 08/06/2002 10:02:27 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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