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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/15/2003 10:05 AM (GMT -6) |   | Here's a question that I doubt anyone, including me, can definitively answer, but it's something I've been wondering about. Even just getting peoples' theories is interesting to me. So, here's my question du jour:
How do the angels and demons do combat with each other? They are not physical beings, so it's not like they can really slay each other with swords or shoot each other through with bullets and arrows. So, how do they actually and literally do battle?
Is it only with words and concepts like angels of God speak the truth while demons speak lies and accusations?
Do you think they may have some other type of power that is energy or enlightenment and darkness that can overcome?
I've been reading through ghost websites where people have posted stories about the things they claim really happened to them. Now, obviously I'm sure many might be exagerrating or down-right lying, and some might simply be mistaking explainable occurances for the unexplainable. Yet, I honestly believe that some people have encountered spirits that for whatever reason have been trying to show themselves to us in this world. An overriding theme is always that these ghosts and demons tend to haunt or reside in places where death has occured, particularly murders, suicides or accidents. It's like the demons who reside there get power from the death event and that's why they're able to be there. It reminds me of how that one pagan king sacrificed his own son before a battle with the Israelites and his army gained supernatural power from it for a time.
Anyway, obviously I don't expect that anyone will have a definite answer to this question, but I do find it stimulating to toss around theories and see what other people conclude.
Tigress 
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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John Earp
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Date Joined Oct 2002
Total Posts : 1715
| Posted 8/15/2003 11:15 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Tigress
How do the angels and demons do combat with each other? They are not physical beings, so it's not like they can really slay each other with swords or shoot each other through with bullets and arrows. So, how do they actually and literally do battle?
Is it only with words and concepts like angels of God speak the truth while demons speak lies and accusations?
Do you think they may have some other type of power that is energy or enlightenment and darkness that can overcome?
It seems to me that spirit beings war with each other by influencing humans (and even nations) to do good or evil, whether by truth or deception. It seems to me that this is precisely what happened in the Garden of Eden.
2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
5 {We are} destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and {we are} taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
"The Discovery of new truth will modify old views and opinions, and there is perhaps no end to this process with finite minds in any world." Charles G. Finney, Systematic Theology.
revivaltheology.net
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Starkman
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Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/20/2003 5:24 AM (GMT -6) | | I can tell you one thing ... they fight with a lot of ... spirit!
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Eli
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Date Joined May 2003
Total Posts : 44
| Posted 8/20/2003 8:26 AM (GMT -6) | | What about the spiritual battle in Daniel?
Daniel 10
12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."
That doesn't really sound like it was contained to influencing humans. In fact, it kinda sounds like the fight was over who gets to influence the human.
"...it is fools, they say, who learn by experience. But since they do at least learn, let a fool bring his experience into the common stock that wiser men may profit by it." -C.S. Lewis
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/20/2003 9:12 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by Eli
What about the spiritual battle in Daniel?
Daniel 10
12 Then he continued, "Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come."
That doesn't really sound like it was contained to influencing humans. In fact, it kinda sounds like the fight was over who gets to influence the human.
Yes, but how was this angel resisted and detained if they're not physical beings? It's not like he could be confined behind bars.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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Starkman
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Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1747
| Posted 8/20/2003 11:17 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Yes, but how was this angel resisted and detained if they're not physical beings? It's not like he could be confined behind bars.
Well, Jude said something, didn't he, about those angels who didn't keep their first estate; that they're in chains of darkness. But, oh, I suppose that could mean a lot of things!
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rsirkel
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Date Joined May 2002
Total Posts : 183
| Posted 8/20/2003 1:58 PM (GMT -6) | | Tigress,
The following scripture helped me in conceptualizing the freedom the devil had and the restraints which were (or are, or will be) needed to stop him for a season. This, as far as I can tell is spirit to spirit and it seems in the spirit dimension that authority and power are used or exercised likened to the physical dimension.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
There are other pointers to what the spiritual dimension or heavenly places are like, for example:
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Also a pointer:
Psalm 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Psalm 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
(Man did eat angel food) Angels eat? I guess so unless someone can show me otherwise. These scriptural accounts lead me to have the opinion the activity, authority, weapons of warfare, ect. in the spiritual realm whether exercised by angels or fallen spirits would be similiar in use as in the physical.
And just a side note, I think this was a thread of yours. With the anointing of God male or female, in my view can minister the things of God. An anointed woman carries the same authority as an anointed man.
Blessings
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Tigress
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Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/22/2003 10:57 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by rsirkel
Tigress,
The following scripture helped me in conceptualizing the freedom the devil had and the restraints which were (or are, or will be) needed to stop him for a season. This, as far as I can tell is spirit to spirit and it seems in the spirit dimension that authority and power are used or exercised likened to the physical dimension.
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
There are other pointers to what the spiritual dimension or heavenly places are like, for example:
Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
Also a pointer:
Psalm 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Psalm 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
(Man did eat angel food) Angels eat? I guess so unless someone can show me otherwise. These scriptural accounts lead me to have the opinion the activity, authority, weapons of warfare, ect. in the spiritual realm whether exercised by angels or fallen spirits would be similiar in use as in the physical.
And just a side note, I think this was a thread of yours. With the anointing of God male or female, in my view can minister the things of God. An anointed woman carries the same authority as an anointed man.
Blessings
Thanks rsirkel,
I agree with you about both men and women having God's anointing to preach and teach equally. I had been asking, in that thread, how to convince my brother of this.
Anyway, regarding these Scriptures you posted. Good examples of spirit fighting spirit. I just wonder if these passages were writting metaphorically, though, in order to help humans understand what was going on. Many of the Bible's authors employed the use of creative imagery to illustrate their points, and these might be examples of that. But, they could also be literal. Arghhhhh! Sometimes I really do wish God would just give us a to-do and to-don't manual, so we wouldn't always be arguing about right and wrong. But, I suppose if He did that, we wouldn't have much of a relationship with Him, now would we?
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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ReasonableDoubt
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Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 655
| Posted 8/22/2003 11:09 AM (GMT -6) | | Tigress - why does it require ambiguity about what is right and wrong in order to have a relationship with Him? I would think just the opposite, that a better relationship could be had the more clear the standards are.
You like to talk about parent and child - well isn't your relationship a lot better with your mom when you're communicating clearly with each other? When that communication breaks down, it is so much easier to have misunderstandings and resentments.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with the topic - it's just an aside.
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Tigress
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2003
Total Posts : 1252
| Posted 8/22/2003 11:23 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
Tigress - why does it require ambiguity about what is right and wrong in order to have a relationship with Him? I would think just the opposite, that a better relationship could be had the more clear the standards are.
You like to talk about parent and child - well isn't your relationship a lot better with your mom when you're communicating clearly with each other? When that communication breaks down, it is so much easier to have misunderstandings and resentments.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with the topic - it's just an aside.
Well, what I meant was that having a how-to manual would make it easier for us to just look up what to do or not to do and we wouldn't even need to bother consulting God about it in prayer. I think the reason there's so much ambiguity is so that we'll have to go to God and seek His personal guidance in all matters, in all areas of our lives. A book of strict dos and don'ts wouldn't foster that kind of intimacy. It would prevent it by allowing us to bypass any consultation with God about questions we might have. Do you understand what I'm saying?
It would be like a teenager not ever talking to her parents to seek their advice or counsel because it would already be written down somewhere. (I'm using teens for this analogy because they're at a stage where they usually don't want anything to do with their parents). So, the parents and the teen would lose out on actually talking with each other and having a deeper, more meaningful relationship.
Actually, ambiguity between right and wrong isn't so much where I got this idea from. It's more about when we're trying to figure out what God's will is for our lives, like what job to take, should I marry this person, should I go into the ministry, etc. We've all complained that God should just make it obvious somehow what we should do with our lives. But, if the blueprints for our lives were all written down, when would we ever really seek Him? It would be too easy to just exclude Him from our lives and only go to Him when we want Him to give us something.
But, by spending time with Him in prayer, to seek His Will for our lives, we become so much closer to Him than if we had just been able to see what to do in a book somewhere.
Tigress
"Name a shrub after me. Preferably one that's prickly and difficult to eradicate."
-Captain Jack Aubrey
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