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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/4/2004 3:11 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by Laika
Don't use dirt/soot/sewage examples, they're confusing and unhelpful. Please use people sinning examples.
Right on Laika!
If God is complicit in sinful behaviour, then the priest is justified in saying, "The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away." But we have the gospels, that God is good and holy and has reconciled Himself to us. He has gotten dirty, not sinful. | | Back to Top | | |
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selah
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1210
| Posted 3/4/2004 4:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Ok, Selah. Is God MORALLY CULPABLE for his participation in the evil, fallen structures that he uses for good purposes?
Hi Mephi,
Well, how are you today? You don't still want me to answer this question do you? I hope the dialogue with others has been helpful. Personally, I think you will find muchO insight by asking yourself the question: "why is it so important for me to hold God morally culpable for (some) evil" or better "what part of me is so intent on holding God morally culpable--and what is the purpose and intention of that part" kinda thing. ya know? "Soul listen up...what is it about evil (in my life and others) that affects me to the extent that I have to ascribe (at least part of) it to God?" I mean, this is a "belief" right? So it must have been installed at some point. My guess is you came to this belief through a combination of things...maybe if you try to unravel that, you will come up with some answers.... Who knows. This is completely a guess. I could be totally wrong (as clearly demonstrated earlier)but I'm ok with that.  > I love this penguin -he seems to be saying "oh well".
ok, don't kill me ...be nice...
love and peace,
selah
"When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world."
Scout Cloud Lee | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/4/2004 4:45 AM (GMT -6) | | Hmmmm...I think I'm seeing something...
Moon River, I DO think that we are getting hung up on terminology. I also think the issue is coming up about HOW one defines sin. I'm believing that a significant amount of people here are having a more Wesleyan view of sin where sin is willful, knowing, intentional, INDIVIDUAL action or thought against God. (This is why I told Laika that there ARE other robust ideas of sin that exist in the Church) The issue with this view of sin is that it fits very well with the free will idea...BUT it SUCKS when it comes to the idea of systemic evil and structural sin. Using this more Wesleyan idea of sin, the logic becomes...
To the extent that one doesn't WILLFULLY, KNOWINGLY and INTENTIONALLY from the heart support the an evil structure, they are not in ANYWAY complicit.
And this logic gets into ABSURD lengths. I remember this one guy who was BIG in this idea of sin. And he said that he hadn't sinned in 5 years. I was like WHAT the HECK??? I thought he was crazy...until I got to the root of his theology. What he was saying in essence was this:
In five years, I have not (to my knowledge) KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY from the heart supported anything against God. Therefore, I haven't sinned.
I had a serious talk with Doc just yesterday on this issue. Our idea of sin (both individual and structural), to the extent that we are consistent, has VERY important ramifications on how we view issues like God's activity in the world, not to mention our OWN participation in sexism, racism, classism, ableism, etc. To the extent that people have a very Wesleyan view of sin and moral culpability, they will have a VERY, VERY hard time understanding 1) the ramifications of a God SO present and participatory in fallen, human structures and 2) their OWN responsibility and culpability for systemic evils where THEY are! I believe that Doc saw my point.
Check it. If someone has a thoroughly INDIVIDUALIZED idea of sin then when they here "God is complicit in fallen, sinful structures", chances are they are hearing this...
God is morally accountable for WILLFULLY, KNOWINGLY, and INTENTIONALLY from the heart supporting fallen, evil structures.
I can then UNDERSTAND why people would not like what I am saying! They would be HEARING me say (as opposed to me actually saying) that God is a SINNER, that God is someone who supports sin or "greater good" from the heart. This would give God NO real separation from the devil.
But this is NOT what I'm saying...
I have a more decidedly LUTHERAN (I'm finding out) take of sin
that gives is a much more PERMEABLE nature. Accountability is NOT just based on willful, knowing, "from the heart" participation in sin. It's deeper that that. Ignorance is NOT bliss. Good intentions DON'T get you off the hook. Participation is MUCH MORE multifaceted. What this means is this:
Complicity in sinful, fallen, systems and structures can be willful, knowing, and intentional from the heart...BUT it can ALSO be UNwilling, UNknowing, AND UNintentional support of those systems and structures!
What this means is that it's possible that you could actively be fully working AGAINST an evil system while being IN the evil system, using the BENEFITS of that evil system against itself...but participating IN that evil system still makes you somewhat ACCOUNTABLE.
Does everyone see this?
Your view of moral responsibility and sin DIRECTLY relates to how you see this issue. And I'm willing to bet that a VAST MAJORITY of people here are having a more Wesleyan view of sin and moral culpability.
Thoughts?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/4/2004 5:01 AM (GMT -6) | | Remember, the Eternal one is asking if God can in NO WAY, ON ANY LEVEL, NOT BE COMPLICIT IN EVIL. If not? You would have problems with Romans 13 and God instituting the Roman government. To tell you the truth this is one of the reasons I have problems with some of the anti-institutionalism on these boards.
I do want to bring up something that was talked about in the past. If you are one who believes in moral absolutes then lying, and stealing, etc, would ALWAYS be wrong. We all say this on a basic level. But when we are in a situation that may REQUIRE us to do these for some greater good or some lesser evil then the question of their absoluteness seems to go out the window.
Sidebar: As I said on my poll, though I believe that life is not this simplistic, this does not mean that we are NEVER faced with these kinds of moral dilemmas. For example, take one Corrie Ten Boom who's parents LIED to the nazis to save Jews. Take the Israelite mothers who lied to Pharoah in order to protect their children (hmmmm...there doesn't seem to be any judgement call as to the rightness or wrongness to this behavior) Now John Earp may think there is nothing wrong with this as he said on Meph Man's poll:quote:
Hi Meph,
When God struck Miriam with leprosy, it was not evil for God to do so, it was perfectly righteous, just as it was for Him to execute Ananias and Sapphira. "Moral" has to do with right vs. wrong, good vs. evil. It was no more evil for God to strike Miriam with this than it was to put John Wayne Gacy to death.
Yet Greg Boyd will admit that sometimes one is called to LIE. From the Ethics thread. Greg said:
quote:
Thanks for the input BBB. I have to confess that I am not clear what you are saying. How is telling a Nazi you don't have Jews hiding when in fact you DO have Jews hiding in your house NOT a lie? Now, I totally grant they GIVEN THE SITUATION, it is the right thing to do. I can't conceive of God NOT wanting you to lie. But it honestly does sound like semantics to redefine "lying" in such a way that telling a falsehood is actually telling the truth.
And neither can I concieve of God NOT wanting me or someone else to lie given the circumstances. Sure, one is JUSTIFIED in this, but still, if this is the case, then I honestly cannot see God NOT being complicit in evil!
Either way, my thing about principles or absolutes is as I said on another thread. Most conservative Christian ethicists say, "The law is based upon timeless eternal principles (another one of those abstract statements)." I believe it is Kaiser who says this.
quote:
Rather, we should look at it from the other way around. That is, that we derive our principles from the the law. In other words, we can deduce from the law what the principle would be. That is to say that that law was "worked out" of a situation and we come up with what the principle would be. A good analogy for this would be, the rules of grammar. As many of you know, grammar and linguistics "break" the rules the more complex it gets. The "rules" (principles) are DERIVED from the usuage rather than the other way around.
Just think'n aloud.
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/4/2004 5:17 AM (GMT -6) | | Heh.
Laika:
quote:
I get it Mephi, you're a calvinist. You believe in original sin, that just because we're born, we're sinners. It's clear now.
Just because Laika and Mephi live in the U.S. both are "complicit" in all the children being killed by abortions every year in the U.S. I get it.
Just because Laika is white, he's "complicit" in James Byrd being dragged to death behind a pickup down in Jasper, Texas.
Just because Mephi is black, he's "complicit" in the five white people slaughtered by Jonathan and Reginald Carr in Kansas City in 2000. I get it.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/special_packages/carr_trial/
Except the Holy Spirit doesn't convict me of a general, vague feeling of badness MERELY due to the circumstances I'm in due to birth.
Clarification. No, Mephi is NOT a Calvinist OR a determinist. NO, Mephi does not believe in the Calvinistic concept of original sin, traducianism, or anything like that.
The ideas that I am speaking of here have NOTHING to do with the concept of predestination, foreknowledge, or any of that.
This ONLY has to deal with our concepts of sin and moral responsibility.
Just gettting this straight.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/4/2004 5:26 AM (GMT -6) | | Heh. Love that tone of yours, buddy. We've just go to meet sometime. Do you visit WHC? I'm there on Sundays. Come holla. I'd love to talk this out with ya. 
Anyways...
Laika:
quote:
They have EVERYTHING to do with vague, general, BLANKET condemnation due to circumstances beyond our control. The kind of condemnation that comes from the "accuser of the brethern".
evil structure is meaningless to me and in lieu of any explanation from you, it's a worthless concept for you to be presenting.
This is not about "blanket condemnation". If that's how you feel about it, sorry. I would anticipate that that's how a person with your view on sin and responsibility would take it. (This is not to disparage your view! This is just to say that your view seems to lend itself to certain ideas that conflict with mine. NO ATTACK HERE!)
As far as "evil structure" being a meaningless concept to you, perhaps it's not meaningless to other people. Actually, if you'd like to read some of Walter Wink's works like, Unmasking the Powers, Naming the Powers...and stuff like that, it'd help.
At any rate, do you.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 3/4/2004 5:46 AM (GMT -6) | | | Excellant article...by the press you would think that JJ (Jesse Jackson) was the end all and be all of black politics. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/4/2004 6:09 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/4/2004 6:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/4/2004 6:24 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/4/2004 6:51 AM (GMT -6) | | How 'bout I put you by the back near the after-burners?  <---this would be you.quote:
I can help people without having to have been part of the problem, can't I? Jesus did.
OK. But whatever you do? Don't buy Pepsi. Don't buy Nike. Don't drive American cars or cars period. Don't wear natural linens. Don't watch any T.V. especially--awards shows. Don't buy CD's ESPECIALLY the gangsta stuff that Meph Man likes. Don't kill animals. Don't eat meat. Don't eat vegetables. Shoot, just don't eat period. Don't drink water especially bottled water. Don't get married and have babies, because you will consume too much in which case you might have to get a divorce...but then that could make it worse, so forget that. Don't use computers. Don't sleep on a bed. Don't smoke. Don't drink. Don't build space craft or fly into outerspace. Move outta the US of A because they build WMD that kill little people, besides, they send the rest of us silly televangelists. Live like the Amish. Don't live like the Amish. Etc, etc, etc...in the mean time while YOU are doing these things? I'm gonna be INDULGING IN ALL OF THEM. 
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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