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Truth Aficionado
Registered Member
Date Joined Dec 2003
Total Posts : 1544
| Posted 3/4/2004 7:03 AM (GMT -6) |   | quote:
Originally posted by BBBCanada
Yet Greg Boyd will admit that sometimes one is called to LIE. From the Ethics thread. Greg said:
quote:
Thanks for the input BBB. I have to confess that I am not clear what you are saying. How is telling a Nazi you don't have Jews hiding when in fact you DO have Jews hiding in your house NOT a lie? Now, I totally grant they GIVEN THE SITUATION, it is the right thing to do. I can't conceive of God NOT wanting you to lie. But it honestly does sound like semantics to redefine "lying" in such a way that telling a falsehood is actually telling the truth.
And neither can I concieve of God NOT wanting me or someone else to lie given the circumstances. Sure, one is JUSTIFIED in this, but still, if this is the case, then I honestly cannot see God NOT being complicit in evil!
The road to hell is a gradual one, made up of little white lies. Lie? I don’t think so, we should never compromise with evil!
Romans 3:5-8 (NIV)
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) [6] Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.
Peace, Mark
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/4/2004 7:26 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Originally posted by MephEternal
Brandon's got the right idea...and got it WELL! Understanding one's complicity in systemic sin gives one a sense of OWNERSHIP (ie YES, you are part of the problem) and RESPONSIBILITY (YES, you should be doing something about it) in being part of it.
Bravo Mephi,
This is a brilliant point and one that I would love to discuss and put into practice.
But I still don't see the dots connecting where God's "complicity" has to be established for this to be a valid point. The obvious clue should be that hundreds of people have voted but no one has seemed to understand. The shortest distance between two points!!! Give it to me. | | Back to Top | | |
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Wahoo
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 142
| Posted 3/4/2004 8:02 AM (GMT -6) | | I think Mephi practices social activism based on this theology. Having this theology, that you are guilty by association, compels the agent to resist the "systemic evil" through activism or jihad or whatever.
Last week, Mephi posted an article that appeared to have nothing to do with Mel Gibson's movie on the thread that was talking about Mel Gibson's theology. That was Mephi's social action since he must feel that attending a film and even giving it the time of day would make him morally culpable for the animistic trade in sexual organs. | | Back to Top | | |
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BBBCanada
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 2763
| Posted 3/4/2004 8:10 AM (GMT -6) | | This is for   Thar you go honey! Love ya!
If you were in Detroit (in Rosa Parks day) and you rode the transit system, would you not feel like you were under SOME OBLIGATION to quit riding if YOU KNEW what they did to that sweet little mama? Would you not be "complicit" in racism if you rode KNOWING how this evil transit system was treating "coloreds." What if you decided to look the other way? You know, ignore it...passively.
I for one would feel obligated NOT to ride. Now, if I KNOW this, what about ALL THE OTHER STUFF in the evil systems of the world that I DON'T KNOW? Do I have to become conscious of EVERY FRIGG'N MOVE I MAKE so I won't be complicit in evil? As I said in the "Christians and politics??" thread (where I got my post from), "What a way to live!" Like forget it mon! Go live with the polar bears or sum'n. You see, I would live in a perpetual state of guilt! Trying to avoid this and that evil. Sorry man, that's bondage. I can't live like that. So. The fact of the matter is...I'M COMPLICIT IN EVIL in some way, shape or form. Who knows, by me wearing the jeans I'm wearing? I probably supported some sweat shop in Turkey! Forget that! I probably supported the guy who owns the company (closest to me) that made my jeans drug habit. See what I mean Vern?  <---you know what that means don't you? 
Brandon
"Corporations are simply the kind of structure that rises when hordes of people need to be managed, and after spending some time in a large church, I've found that our spirituality does not exempt us from these inefficient and dehumanizing practices."--Steve Lansingh's review of "The Office" at The Film Form | | Back to Top | | |
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 3/4/2004 8:15 AM (GMT -6) | | Complicit? Thats okay. Now that posting is equated with "social activism," these two unsupported with evidence, nonsensial ideas cancel each other out. Next case?
No, Brandon, I would not feel obligated to not ride. That simply shows that you see only one solution to the problem. Yours. | | Back to Top | | |
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Laika
Registered Member
Date Joined Mar 2003
Total Posts : 2433
| Posted 3/4/2004 8:22 AM (GMT -6) | | | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/4/2004 10:10 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph
Complicity in sinful, fallen, systems and structures can be willful, knowing, and intentional from the heart...BUT it can ALSO be UNwilling, UNknowing, AND UNintentional support of those systems and structures!
What this means is that it's possible that you could actively be fully working AGAINST an evil system while being IN the evil system, using the BENEFITS of that evil system against itself...but participating IN that evil system still makes you somewhat ACCOUNTABLE.
Does everyone see this?
Iconoclast
I don’t.
Meph
Understanding one's complicity in systemic sin gives one a sense of OWNERSHIP (ie YES, you are part of the problem) and RESPONSIBILITY (YES, you should be doing something about it) in being part of it.
Iconoclast
The reason we should be doing something about systemic sin is NOT because of our own complicity (even if we have LOTS) but because we love the people who are being negatively impacted.
Anything NOT done out of love is worthless. If you are fighting against systemic sin because you feel guilty based on your “complicity” how is this being done out of love? It would seem more like a guilt removal program to me.
Meph
I'm believing that a significant amount of people here are having a more Wesleyan view of sin where sin is willful, knowing, intentional, INDIVIDUAL action or thought against God.
…
The issue with this view of sin is that it fits very well with the free will idea…
Iconoclast
I think this is the issue Meph. But, what else would sin be? Can a rock sin? Can a baby sin? Do animals sin? It seems to me that sin entails free will.
Meph
The issue with this view of sin is that it fits very well with the free will idea...BUT it SUCKS when it comes to the idea of systemic evil and structural sin. Using this more Wesleyan idea of sin, the logic becomes...
To the extent that one doesn't WILLFULLY, KNOWINGLY and INTENTIONALLY from the heart support the an evil structure, they are not in ANYWAY complicit.
And this logic gets into ABSURD lengths. I remember this one guy who was BIG in this idea of sin. And he said that he hadn't sinned in 5 years. I was like WHAT the HECK??? I thought he was crazy...until I got to the root of his theology. What he was saying in essence was this:
In five years, I have not (to my knowledge) KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY from the heart supported anything against God. Therefore, I haven't sinned.
Iconoclast
Meph, do you really believe this guy had not once In five years, I have not (to my knowledge) KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY from the heart supported anything against God?
This seems like a huge rationalization to me. Did he mean “to my knowledge” at this moment? Had he conveniently repressed any time he objectified another person? Or could he perhaps just be redefining “anything against God” to mean whatever he happens not to be doing?
How is this anecdote in anyway “this logic gets into ABSURD lengths”?
Also, what is the problem with a free-will view of sin and systemic evil? Where do you think systems come from? They come from people. And if the people are objectifying one another what do you think the system will look like?
Chris Argyris has documented in excruciating detail exactly how systemic evil comes about. He shows explicitly how it comes about through individual thought and action.
Meph
It important that the principle of moral responsibility (which has the force of metaphysical reality) be GROUNDED in freedom and choice. That's the only way that any free will argument would be sustained. HOWEVER, it must be applicable such that systemic evil and structural sin can be adequately addressed. I believe that I'm working this out in this thread!
Iconoclast
To really work it out you must show exactly how individual freedom and choice manifest itself in such a way as to give rise to system evil. This is what Chris Argyris has done.
Meph
So, see, I'm NOT out to just put a blame trip on God. I am working out a doctrine of sin and idea of moral responsibility that on one hand, affirms personal responsibility, choice and freedom...but on the other hand, lays CORPORATE responsibility and accountability on us as well. BOTH are important aspects, I believe.
Iconoclast
Again, Argyris shows exactly how and why we have corporate responsibility for systemic evil. He shows how whenever we do not act out love for the other we give rise to systemic evil. The solution is quite simply to start loving each other. In fact, the solution is to do exactly what Jesus asks us to do and did.
But Meph, when does God EVER not act out of love? He does not. Therefore He is never complicit in any evil. And the moment we start totally acting out of love, we aren’t either. It is NOT a matter of whether we are participating in an evil system or not – it is ONLY a matter of whether we are acting out of love or not.
Simple as that.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/4/2004 10:27 AM (GMT -6) | | Brandon SO has me.
quote:
Meph Man was saying, "Hey forget about the brutally of the crucifixion and think about the SIN that put him there. The same sin that put Christ on the cross also (PRESENTLY) kills nuns and abducts little children for their sexual organs!" I would presume that he is not going to that movie because it REALLY goes against the grain of some of his fundamental beliefs concerning sin (as noted above) and the incarnation i.e. what's worse, Christ on the cross for a couple of hours or leaving ETERNAL BLISS of aloving communion between the person's of the trinity to enter a disorienting existence for the next 33 years?
Yes, yes, yes. That's it, man!
*******************************
Iconoclast:
quote:
The reason we should be doing something about systemic sin is NOT because of our own complicity (even if we have LOTS) but because we love the people who are being negatively impacted.
Anything NOT done out of love is worthless. If you are fighting against systemic sin because you feel guilty based on your “complicity” how is this being done out of love? It would seem more like a guilt removal program to me.
This is not a guilt trip thing...or a guilt removal thing. I would agree that anything not done out of love is nothing. This has more to do with RECOGNITION OF RESPONSIBILITY than assigning and internalizing blame. I think that's what's being heard here. But I'm not saying that.
**********************************
quote:
Meph
It important that the principle of moral responsibility (which has the force of metaphysical reality) be GROUNDED in freedom and choice. That's the only way that any free will argument would be sustained. HOWEVER, it must be applicable such that systemic evil and structural sin can be adequately addressed. I believe that I'm working this out in this thread!
Iconoclast
To really work it out you must show exactly how individual freedom and choice manifest itself in such a way as to give rise to system evil. This is what Chris Argyris has done.
I think that Walter Wink has discussed this in depth as well.
*********************
Iconoclast:
quote:
Again, Argyris shows exactly how and why we have corporate responsibility for systemic evil. He shows how whenever we do not act out love for the other we give rise to systemic evil. The solution is quite simply to start loving each other. In fact, the solution is to do exactly what Jesus asks us to do and did.
But Meph, when does God EVER not act out of love? He does not. Therefore He is never complicit in any evil. And the moment we start totally acting out of love, we aren’t either. It is NOT a matter of whether we are participating in an evil system or not – it is ONLY a matter of whether we are acting out of love or not.
Simple as that.
How does Argyris deal with the concept of justice with respect to systemic evil? Wondering.
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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Springs
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 636
| Posted 3/4/2004 10:51 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
Meph: I had a serious talk with Doc just yesterday on this issue. Our idea of sin (both individual and structural), to the extent that we are consistent, has VERY important ramifications on how we view issues like God's activity in the world, not to mention our OWN participation in sexism, racism, classism, ableism, etc. To the extent that people have a very Wesleyan view of sin and moral culpability, they will have a VERY, VERY hard time understanding 1) the ramifications of a God SO present and participatory in fallen, human structures and 2) their OWN responsibility and culpability for systemic evils where THEY are! I believe that Doc saw my point.
So, Doc saw your point. Are you saying he agreed with it? I doubt it. Did you see his point? Did you agree with him? Are you saying that when you expressed your ideas to Doc, that he expressed Wesleyan ideas back to you, thereby making it hard for him to understand the ramifications of God’s participation in systemic evil and his own responsibility for system evils? I think he probably understands your argument pretty well. Understanding something and agreeing with something are two different things. Again, I’m wondering if we could skip the references to what Doc believes, says, understands or sees and just let him speak for himself when and if he ever has time to get back into the dialogue?
quote:
Selah:
Hi Mephi, Personally, I think you will find muchO insight by asking yourself the question: "why is it so important for me to hold God morally culpable for (some) evil" or better "what part of me is so intent on holding God morally culpable--and what is the purpose and intention of that part" kinda thing. ya know? "Soul listen up...what is it about evil (in my life and others) that affects me to the extent that I have to ascribe (at least part of) it to God?" I mean, this is a "belief" right? So it must have been installed at some point. My guess is you came to this belief through a combination of things...maybe if you try to unravel that, you will come up with some answers....
Good point Selah. I think this is a great approach. Long live TNT. Not to psychoanalyze Meph or anything but just hypothetically…I could think of a couple of scenarios that might result in and individual forming this sort of belief. An individual might have done something evil that he/she believes was God’s will, or an individual might have had an experience in which they believe they were done evil by God’s hand. Hmmmm just a thought.
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feelinahole
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2004
Total Posts : 754
| Posted 3/4/2004 10:56 AM (GMT -6) | | | I completely agree with the point of keeping Doctor Boyd out of it. Are we not all equal in our opinions here? | | Back to Top | | |
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Iconoclast
Registered Member
Date Joined Oct 2001
Total Posts : 1227
| Posted 3/4/2004 11:12 AM (GMT -6) | | Meph
Sinning is basically NOT acting out of love. To live in love is NOT to sin. Therefore, To the extent that one chooses from the heart to live in the reality of God's love, they are not in ANY WAY complicit in any form of systemic evil.
...
To the extent that I am able, I live in the reality of God's unsurpassable love for all people. Therefore, whenever I do this, I am in no way complicit with any fallen, evil systems or structures in my city, my corporation, or my country.
Iconoclast
I would say that when one actually loves others they are in no way complicit with any fallen, evil systems or structures in my city, my corporation, or my country.
thanks,
Iconoclast
"The benefit overran the merit the first day, and has overrun the merit ever since. The merit itself, so-called, I reckon part of the receiving." - Ralph Waldo Emerson | | Back to Top | | |
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One Love
Registered Member
Date Joined Jan 2003
Total Posts : 13888
| Posted 3/4/2004 11:41 AM (GMT -6) | | More concrete example:
Let's say that I work for a company that, for whatever reason, does very little about institutional discrimination against the physically challenged. The company basically does JUST ENOUGH to stay in bounds legally. But in practice, it's a very oppressive place for physically challenged people to work. I hate what's going on, and so I make sure to do everything I can to love each person with God's love...including those people oppressed by the system of ableism. Now, I'm in no way complicit in my company's practices and systemically injust actions or inactions. Actually, I detest them. Sure, I'm getting paid by this company and getting benefits...but I am NOT sanctioning their practices. I'm not doing all I can to lobby against those practices either...but I'm still not for them. At any rate, I just do my job as best as I can and love people with the love of God.
And I am IN NO WAY morally culpable for participating in the company where I work. Not in the least.
This is the way it goes, right?
"I've been converted three times. The first was to traditional Christianity; the second to honesty and the third was to the Love of God and man (humanity) The third was the real conversion. The first two were preliminary."
--Nels Ferre, a theologian speaking of his spiritual journey with the Triune God
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