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justinsbts
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 2/12/2002 1:32 PM (GMT -6) |   | How does the open view seek atonement?
Also, what do you think the fundamentals are of being a Christian?
Blessings,
-justin
"I choose to let the mystery be" -10,000 Maniacs
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Modes of Thought
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 817
| Posted 2/12/2002 1:37 PM (GMT -6) | | Sorry to disappoint, but I think you will find that the Open View does not have a distinctive position on either of these two issues. Just as there are several ways of explaining these issues in Evangelicalism in general, you will find Openness advocates across the spectrum.
"Christianly understood, truth is obviously not to know the truth but to be the truth. Despite all modern philosophy, there is an infinite difference here..." SK | | Back to Top | | |
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GregBoyd
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 1818
| Posted 2/13/2002 4:25 PM (GMT -6) | | How does the open view seek atonement?
Doc: It asks Jesus into its heart.
Just kidding 
Open theists have no distinct view of the atonement. But I have the right one:
CHRISTUS VICTOR
Justin: Also, what do you think the fundamentals are of being a Christian?
Doc:Trusting and following Jesus.
Blessings
Doc
"Three is the magic number, oh yes it is, it's the Magic Number" - De La Soul
Edited by - GregBoyd on 02/13/2002 9:26:18 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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justinsbts
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 2/22/2002 8:37 AM (GMT -6) | | "Justin: Also, what do you think the fundamentals are of being a Christian?
Doc:Trusting and following Jesus."
This is one things I've struggled with. I came to faith when a girl named Kara, her mother Holly and father Jeff told me this exact thing. Having walked with the Lord these last several years though I see much more then that. I realized the poverty of my own self when I came to faith. I made a confession of sin and asked for forgivness when I asked the Lord into my life.
Is there more to it then just trusting Jesus and following him? By that I mean, where's the repentance? Is this wrapped up in trusting Jesus? If it is, does this minimize the issue of sin? Because a non believer responds to the love of Christ but is that the catalyst for coming to Christ? Does the new believer just get around to dealing with their sin? Or, is it just assumed by said new believer that sins are forgiven because of the trust?
I'm really going rounds about this. I believe it was the conviction of sin that led me to repentence before the Lord but this was not the main thrust of the gospel challenge in my life. It was the love of Christ
Where does God's holiness, wrath and judgment come in? These other aspects of God's character seem minimized somehow by making Love God's main characteristic.
I know this is drifting off the original topic but this seems the best place to ask this question.
Blessings,
-justin
Edited by - justinsbts on 02/22/2002 1:41:24 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 2/22/2002 7:13 PM (GMT -6) | | Holiness, Wrath and Judgment are aspects of God's love. It is NOT like this
Holiness - Wrath - Love - Judgment
or
Love - Holiness
It is like this
LOVE
/ | \
Holiness Wrath Judgment
Accpeted in the Beloved,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth
Edited by - chance on 02/23/2002 12:15:01 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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Tom
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Date Joined Jul 2001
Total Posts : 10353
| Posted 2/22/2002 7:27 PM (GMT -6) | | Chance-
What's the possibility of placing God's HOLIESS on top, with the others below?
There are times when God's love for people will turn to hatred. God shows wrath, but also mercy. He judges but also saves. But there is never a time when he's anything but holy.
Just wondering.
Tom
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Daylan
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 5
| Posted 2/23/2002 3:56 AM (GMT -6) | | Or maybe, our place in the universe is
love (repentance forgiveness sanctification)
While God's is Holiness (Love Judgement Wrath)
I'm thinking maybe that I've been wrongly projecting what God expects of me as a redeemed sinner ( he showed me what he expects in the person of Jesus Christ ), on to what I expect of God. So when I am told that in my world, above all is love, I just assume that it must be the same in God's world too. When I am commanded to forgive those who sin against me, I project that onto that God is commanding this of himself also. But maybe the attitude of our heart should be more along the lines of, the Holy, righteous God of the universe, decided to love us when he didn't have to.
I'm still persuaded that love is the primary characteristic of God but have just been thinking lately. Can anyone develope that idea a little better or in a different direction?
Edited by - daylan on 02/23/2002 08:57:44 AM | | Back to Top | | |
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chance
Registered Member
Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 157
| Posted 2/23/2002 10:42 AM (GMT -6) | | Answer these questions TGB
What does it mean to be "holy"?
Can God be "holy" apart from (or without) creation?
Can God love (or be loving) apart from (or without) creation?
Accepted in the Beloved,
chance
A God who has fixed every detail beforehand may retire or die --Markus Barth | | Back to Top | | |
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justinsbts
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 2/23/2002 12:07 PM (GMT -6) | | "Holiness, Wrath and Judgment are aspects of God's love."
I don't believe that's what I wrote. But you are right. They aren't Wrath, Judgment and Love are aspects of His holiness.
"Can God be "holy" apart from (or without) creation?"
God's holiness isn't contigent on creation.
"Can God love (or be loving) apart from (or without) creation?"
Not sure what you are driving at here.
How is God's holiness contigent on his Love? He loves because He is holy.
I would have to completely disagree with God's characteristics all flowing out of His love.
Recommended Reading:
Anslem's, "Why God Became Man" or Anthanasius', "On the Incarnation of the Word".
It seems like Old Testament texts repeatedly have God speaking of his own holiness. I would suggest this as antecedental to love.
Is the verse "Be holy because I am Holy" or "Be holy because I am Love"?
Sola Christo,
-justin
Edited by - justinsbts on 02/23/2002 5:11:56 PM | | Back to Top | | |
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 2/24/2002 8:40 AM (GMT -6) | | Justin,
In reading this thread, it sounds like you struggling with the idea that being a Christian should ultimately lead to some changes in a person's life. Hence, the sinner should start to reflect God's holiness, as they become more like Christ. Is this what's on your mind, or am I missing something?
Yours in Christ,
Winghead
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justinsbts
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 9
| Posted 2/25/2002 5:03 AM (GMT -6) | | quote:
In reading this thread, it sounds like you struggling with the idea that being a Christian should ultimately lead to some changes in a person's life. Hence, the sinner should start to reflect God's holiness, as they become more like Christ. Is this what's on your mind, or am I missing something?
Well... I wasn't thinking about that at the time but sure- I think that the regenerate person clothed in the Christ should have changes in their life. Drastic changes? Well I wouldn't necessarily expect that of a person that was raised in a loving Christian home, but maybe I would expect that in a person that lived a life of debauchery. The fruits of the Spirit testify to our being found in Christ don't they?
I'm not sure I understand the reflection in holiness. Can you explain further? On the immediate, I would say that I do not reflect enough on the fact I bow to a holy God. I can only come into His presence through the work of the Cross. So there is definitely the Love of God, but I think, for myself that I have oft been guilty of the imbalance of "Jesus loves me" without any sort of reverence for God the Father. Jesus becaomes one of my surf buddies who gets the high five when he scores a mint set wave. And the fact if God admonished Moses, "boy, get those shows off you're in holy ground" and I'm like, "Do I really understand the awesomeness of God, that His wraith is going to drop on people one day for turning from Him?
So not sure where this falls in your reply but that's my two bits. I wonder if the culture at large is all about lovin' them some Jesus because the idea of God's wraith and judgment, equal parts of His character is too offensive, and focusing on love is more palatable. Well, the cross is scandalous and the gospel is offensive to those who are perishing.
I'm saying there needs to be a balance- the love of God and the fear of Him as well. Not fear in the scared sense but the more traditional sense of being overwhelmed with the awe of God.
Anyway, I've got a New Testament test tomorrow I need to study for.
Blessings wing,
-j
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Winghead
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2002
Total Posts : 132
| Posted 2/27/2002 5:50 PM (GMT -6) | | Hi Justin,
Sorry it took me so long to reply to your message.
Winghead:
quote:
In reading this thread, it sounds like you struggling with the idea that being a Christian should ultimately lead to some changes in a person's life. Hence, the sinner should start to reflect God's holiness, as they become more like Christ. Is this what's on your mind, or am I missing something?
Justinsbts:
quote:
I'm not sure I understand the reflection in holiness. Can you explain further?
I was thinking about 2 Cor 3:18, where it talks about us becoming more like Christ.
"And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more."
2 Cor. 3:18 (NLT)
The Kingdom of God is proleptic -- now, but now yet. Our experience is also now, and not yet.
quote:
On the immediate, I would say that I do not reflect enough on the fact I bow to a holy God. I can only come into His presence through the work of the Cross. So there is definitely the Love of God, but I think, for myself that I have oft been guilty of the imbalance of "Jesus loves me" without any sort of reverence for God the Father. Jesus becaomes one of my surf buddies who gets the high five when he scores a mint set wave. And the fact if God admonished Moses, "boy, get those shows off you're in holy ground" and I'm like, "Do I really understand the awesomeness of God, that His wraith is going to drop on people one day for turning from Him?
Balance is important. The church in America today is easily seduced by individualism. A couple other verses come to mind:
"Then Jesus told his disciples, “If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it." Matt. 16:24-25 (NRSVA)
But, scripture also says....
"For God is working in you, giving you the desire to obey him and the power to do what pleases him." Phil. 2:13 (NLT)
"And now, all glory to God, who is able to keep you from stumbling, and who will bring you into his glorious presence innocent of sin and with great joy." Jude 1:24 (NLT)
quote:
I'm saying there needs to be a balance- the love of God and the fear of Him as well. Not fear in the scared sense but the more traditional sense of being overwhelmed with the awe of God.
Wolfhart Pannenberg makes the following observation:
"The holiness of God, which the high-priestly prayer of Jesus invokes (John 17:11), is the basis of the request that believers will be kept in fellowship with him. The sending of the Son to save the world (John 3:16) aims at the bringing of the world into the sphere of the divine holiness. Thus the holiness of God both opposes the profane world and embraces it. ... The Infinite is truly infinite only when it transcends its own antithesis to the finite. In this sense the holiness of God is truly infinite, for it is opposed to the profane, yet it also enters the profane world, penetrates it, and makes it holy. In the renewed world that is the target of eschatological hope the difference between God and the creature will remain, but that between the holy and the profane will be totally abolished (Zech. 14:20-21)."
(Systematic Theology, Volume 1, p 399ff)
We sometimes get caught up looking at the stark difference between us and God, and lose sight of what God is doing to bridge the gap.
This should be enough for now. 
In Christ,
Winghead
"...you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.’ The second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31 (NLT)
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