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Date Joined Jun 2001
Total Posts : 516
| Posted 6/28/2001 6:23 PM (GMT -6) |   |
01/10/01 11:24 PM
God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok guys, I am way new at this, and not anywhere up to speed as Greg or Lion-Lamb or any of you others...BUT, I still need help here, and who better than you to give it?
I believe that God tests us, that these tests are to strengthen us as Christians, and deepen our roots. If you all agree on this, please help define within what boundaries ( if any) He tests...does He allow Satan to work in our lives to impose the tests? Does He allow for us to be exposed to the risk of sinning? or be harmed? or suffer? Or all the ugly things in our earthly lives simply the work of Satan, and not meant as tests?
I'm a former Catholic...forgive me if I am way off base, I am trying to learn! Help me brothers and sisters!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Polly_Histor
01/12/01 4:51 AM
RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baby Di,
I guess what you really want to know is:
Which of the following options best sums up my current trial/apparently negative experience?
1. I am going through an experience which God himself constructed in order to get me to learn something,
2. I am going through an experience which Satan is orchestrating/or is a natural consequence of world full of evil, but which God secretly wished for me, in order that I may gain something,
3. I am going through an experience which Satan is orchestrating/or is a natural consequence of world full of evil, but which God did not wish for me, yet is prepared to let continue, in order that a greater good may be achieved.
This is the way I look at it, calling myself an open theist:
God by virtue of his nature is incapable of evil, and wishes no association with it. Therefore it seems to me unacceptable to consider God as using evil directly to 'teach us a lesson'. Some worldviews see God as the Prime mover in a universe which unfolds according to strict mechanistic processes (known only to God) or as one who despite creating a universe which is free to go wrong, is fully aware of every outcome.
In such a universe, Satan was created in full knowledge that he would fall, and in full knowledge that he was going to tempt man, and that man was created in such a way that given that interaction with Satan would sin, and evil would enter the world. Thus God appears to be the author of evil, or that God intentionally uses evil to bring about his purposes. Alternatively, God is a baker who went about baking lovely cakes, in full knowledge that they would later get burnt in the oven because the thermostat would break at some point.
This means that views 1 and 2 don't seem to me to preserve God's fundemental character - one of love and holiness.
In contrast the open view sees God as taking risks in creation, never knowing exactly what will happen until it does, being surprised at some of the outcomes. This God is resourceful and wise, gaining new experience at every moment.
God's response to an evil situation is to make the best he can of it. God is capable of turning around a situation which came about through chance and consequence in a world full of rebellion.
God as Father wishes only good for his children, and I think we would do well to shake off any mindset that tells us he wants to 'teach us a lesson'. Paul reminds me I am Holy in his sight, blameless and free from accusation. God does not want to take every opportunity to make me suffer.
God the Father doesn't hire a thief to mug me just to teach me not to walk alone at night. My Father in heaven has probably tried to warn me many times, cause he knows the sorts of things that happen in an open universe. My Father is constantly watching out for ways he can positively impact my life, making sure that I can cope with everything life throws at me. My Father will comfort me when things go wrong, when I didn't listen to his advice. My Father may show me the edge of the cliff to explain where is safe to walk.
How much more wonderful is my Father than a God who entraps me, only to tell me I should know better.
Freedom is the bottom line here. My Father gives me the freedom to believe in him, to call out to him, to ask for protection. He doesn't sulk because I excluded him yesterday, he is waiting in the wings for an opportunity to make the difference today.
God does not allow pain and suffering for its own sake, or because it achieves anything worthwhile in itself.
Pain is not there to punish us for falling over. Sadness is not there to heighten our enjoyment of joy. Evil is not there to show us how Holy God is. Sickness is not there just to make me seek a doctor. God says, since the house got flooded, I'll give you that new carpet I've been trying to pursuade you to get for ages.
When we see that this world isn't how God wanted it to be, and God is committed to changing me into the likeness of the Messiah, we should end up viewing tests in a different light. Satan's aim is our downfall, so we should rebuke him. God wants to exercise us so we are stronger. It is Holy Spirit who helps us to tell the difference.
Love Polly.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
BabyDi100900
01/12/01 11:22 AM
RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polly- thanks for the response….I as well believe in open theism and am trying to grow and learn within that realm.
I agree that God is incapable of evil, wants nothing to do with it, and therefore, does not utilize it to inflict a negative experience on us. I think that "testing" is not the reason negative things occur in our lives…more, it's the result of the constant battle between good and evil. You say that God is always watching out for ways to impact our lives so that we can handle the ugliness when it comes our way. I agree with that. As a believer, I have experienced that many many times. Here is my struggle then, if I am on track so far…
The non- believers then, don't have the "resources" that a believer has, because they do not allow God to make the best of a bad situation, to pick them up when they are down. Evil triumphs then, doesn't it?
A very bad situation/negative experience has the potential to make a believer into a non- believer..in which evil then triumphs as well.
We have free will, but God is the overriding authority when He wants to use His will. Why is it not His will in these situations to have us triumph? If He only wants the greater good for us to be achieved, why does He allow the lesser of that to occur?
And, if we successfully manage through the very bad situations, triumph over evil, remain strong in our faith, is it ok to at least acknowledge it as a battle successfully won, consider it a "test we passed" and identify it as further growth in our Christianity? That we just made our roots deeper? That we are now stronger than before and God's awesome love and power has again been revealed ?
Peace -and may all our battles be conquered
Di
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/14/01 7:12 AM
RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents into this discussion. I read this awesome book by Joni Eareckson Tada called, 'When God Weeps', which addresses this whole area of tests... I agree with you that God doesn't want us to suffer nor does He bring trials upon us. God has NOTHING to do with evil. I believe that Satan can ONLY throw the trials at us in which God allows. If Satan had it his way he would have already devoured and destroyed us. God has the ultimate say in EVERYTHING for BOTH the believer, as well as, the non-believer. The difference between the believer and the non-believer hinges on the fact that God is the source of our strenth. The non-believer has to get their life and strength from fleshly things. God helps us to triumph in our trials "He works all things for the good", but He doesn't release us from having an active part in this.
What I have learned through the TNT course, that is mentioned on the Christus Victor home page, is that God,through His Holy Spirit, has empowered us with the resources to overcome and win the battles. He has placed within our spirit the driver, (called the "I" of the soul), that allows us to 'Take every thought captive to Christ'. God works with us, not in spite of us, to work through the trials and the strongholds in our life.
Prayer is our weapon,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Polly_Histor
01/14/01 11:08 AM
Joni Eareckson Tada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trosie,
Just an aside really.
I agree with what you said there, but I was interested to know more about Joni's ideas. I haven't read her book, but I've been told that she says "God broke my back". Is this true, and how does it fit into the picture?
Polly
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Polly_Histor
01/14/01 11:54 AM
RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Di,
>A very bad situation/negative experience has the potential to make a >believer into a non- believer..in which evil then triumphs as well. >We have free will, but God is the overriding authority when He wants >to use His will. Why is it not His will in these situations to have >us triumph?
This is hard, because we believe that God wants only good for us, why does he let things go wrong like this?
Well, I suppose that I have to believe God only lets me suffer stuff which I can endure, so if I don't, then I have to take responsibility for that. Furthermore, Paul said to Timothy "If we disown him, he will disown us...If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, since he cannot disown himself"
I know one of the key obstacles in my own life is not allowing myself to be vulnerable. I don't tend to rely on God for things because I like to be in control, and so I disown God from that situation. God seems to move more when I am driven into a corner where I cannot be in control any more. Then, when I have no other resort, even if I say prayers I hardly believe, he seems to listen, and is faithful. I guess God doesn't want to be tacked on to my list of resources.
I always ask "God, why don't you do more?" and I have to come to either of the following conclusions. Either He is not interested, and our prayers are like twisting his arm until he says "Oh, alright", or He is longing to be more involved, but for him preserving the cooperation with Man is more important.
Recommended on the book list on the site is The Suffering of God by T. Fretheim. I was reminded of this by Trosie's post. Fretheim says that we often think to ourselves If only Jesus were here, he would do something. and we see Jesus as saving us from the Father, who is the source of all the trouble in our lives.
I suppose that God agreed certain rules for his interaction in the world, and appears to want human cooperation. Lip service is not the same as genuinely throwing yourself on the rock.
We must remember that God could be saving us each moment from disasterous situations, we just don't realise it. I hope I trust God every day for my safety, and so far I'm still alive, but I don't know how many near misses God had intervened on. What we see could be the tip of the iceburg.
>If He only wants the greater good for us to be achieved, why does He >allow the lesser of that to occur?
The end doesn't justify the means. God must want to achieve things in a certain way for them to be really worthwhile, any other way and it would be damaging for the world and us in the long term. When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, crying to God Is there another way? the Father must have been sobbing too, torn apart replies "If only there were..."
>And, if we successfully manage through the very bad situations, >triumph over evil, remain strong in our faith, is it ok to at least >acknowledge it as a battle successfully won, consider it a "test we >passed" and identify it as further growth in our Christianity? That >we just made our roots deeper? That we are now stronger than before >and God's awesome love and power has again been revealed ?
Yeah!!!!!!. For it is his purpose that we be increasingly conformed to the likeness of the Messiah. If we died with him, we will also live with him. We share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Suffering is a necessary part of becoming conformed to the likeness of the Son. Everything good is cloaked in futility and death (Romans 8) the creation has been subjected to frustration..., and must be released by the sons of God.
We reach into the creation with the empowerment of Holy Spirit, and face the difficulties of life. The creation ends up being liberated from its bondage to futility and death, and enjoys a freedom that would never have been achievable by human might. (I recommend an excellent book on this subject The Church beyond the Congregation by James Thwaites.
His grace is sufficient not only for me to suffer and remain in the faith, but to succeed and gain the prize.
Love Polly.
love
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Shine150
01/14/01 8:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
love your thinking polly-hist. thanks. couple of questions.
* someone said Satan can only test us if God allows him? i know you can get that from Job and Jesus' statement about Satan wanting to "sift" Peter. but does this mean that Satan always has to ask specific permission for every specific evil he's going to do? and if so, then doesn't this mean that God must have a good REASON for allowing Satan to do what he does? and if this is so doesn't it mean that we're back to the same old problem that all bad things happen for a "good" divine reason?
* here's something i've always wondered. why does the bible say God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we 're able to stand... but then a lot of people get tempted and fall -- which means, doesn't it, that they were tempted beyond what they were able... What's up with that?
* On Joni.. i'm glad Trosie was blessed by one of her books, but I had a friend who went beserko on one. Joni gets into this "all things are for the better" stuff... like God had a reason for her getting crippled. the implication is that every gassed jewish child was created with her specific terroized gasp for oxygen in mind.
i'd be an atheist if this is what believing in God entailed.
skate on
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/14/01 11:33 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just referring to the book called "When God Weeps' because I thought that Joni made SOME good points about the issue of evil. I don't want to say that I agree with EVERYTHING that I read in the book, but I did learn a lot and got some of my own questions answered. The bottom line that I was wanting to share from this book was that EVERYTHING that happens to us can ONLY happen if God allows it, and this helped me in the process of starting to make some sense out of the pain that we all experience. I realize that this doesn't make the evil any less real, but it does help me to put things into perspective a little bit. God DOESN'T bring about the evil in our life but HE IS IN CONTROL, not Satan, of how much evil will come into our life. Satan cannot do anything to us unless God allows it. It does not seem very loving that He would allow anything evil to come to us, but we live in a fallen world where there is a spiritual war going on and we happen to be in the war zone. He doesn't AT ALL desire that the Jewish child, that you referred to, get gased. God HATES evil.
So, in a nut shell, I had only referred to the book because it had helped me, a few years ago, when I began to really question the whole issue of the evil in the world. This thing of evil is a process that I struggle with myself, and that is why I wanted to jump into your thread. I agree with Greg Boyd's warfare view, and his book has helped me in my struggle with the issue of "evil" as well. I know that there are a lot of good books out there that have been written on this topic. I have read a few but 'When God Weeps' was the one that stuck out in my head when I wrote the other post.
In Christ,
trosie
P.S. Polly-Histor, I really appreciate and agree with what you have posted on this thread
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BabyDi100900
01/16/01 2:00 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polly
I think I get it now- at least on the level I was asking. I needed to know that there was significance on our successful negotiation through the negative times. Shine150 had a good question that was along what I was asking...but took it further. That if God does not allow us to be given more than we can handle, how then do we fail? I think that that is because we COULD handle it..if we kept our faith and trusted him...that we fail because we let go of that.
Anyway- thanks...this was all done with good timing and....I WILL keep the faith and I'll consider it all as bringing me one step closer to his likeness.
01/10/01 11:24 PM
God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok guys, I am way new at this, and not anywhere up to speed as Greg or Lion-Lamb or any of you others...BUT, I still need help here, and who better than you to give it?
I believe that God tests us, that these tests are to strengthen us as Christians, and deepen our roots. If you all agree on this, please help define within what boundaries ( if any) He tests...does He allow Satan to work in our lives to impose the tests? Does He allow for us to be exposed to the risk of sinning? or be harmed? or suffer? Or all the ugly things in our earthly lives simply the work of Satan, and not meant as tests?
I'm a former Catholic...forgive me if I am way off base, I am trying to learn! Help me brothers and sisters!
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Polly_Histor
01/12/01 4:51 AM
RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baby Di,
I guess what you really want to know is:
Which of the following options best sums up my current trial/apparently negative experience?
1. I am going through an experience which God himself constructed in order to get me to learn something,
2. I am going through an experience which Satan is orchestrating/or is a natural consequence of world full of evil, but which God secretly wished for me, in order that I may gain something,
3. I am going through an experience which Satan is orchestrating/or is a natural consequence of world full of evil, but which God did not wish for me, yet is prepared to let continue, in order that a greater good may be achieved.
This is the way I look at it, calling myself an open theist:
God by virtue of his nature is incapable of evil, and wishes no association with it. Therefore it seems to me unacceptable to consider God as using evil directly to 'teach us a lesson'. Some worldviews see God as the Prime mover in a universe which unfolds according to strict mechanistic processes (known only to God) or as one who despite creating a universe which is free to go wrong, is fully aware of every outcome.
In such a universe, Satan was created in full knowledge that he would fall, and in full knowledge that he was going to tempt man, and that man was created in such a way that given that interaction with Satan would sin, and evil would enter the world. Thus God appears to be the author of evil, or that God intentionally uses evil to bring about his purposes. Alternatively, God is a baker who went about baking lovely cakes, in full knowledge that they would later get burnt in the oven because the thermostat would break at some point.
This means that views 1 and 2 don't seem to me to preserve God's fundemental character - one of love and holiness.
In contrast the open view sees God as taking risks in creation, never knowing exactly what will happen until it does, being surprised at some of the outcomes. This God is resourceful and wise, gaining new experience at every moment.
God's response to an evil situation is to make the best he can of it. God is capable of turning around a situation which came about through chance and consequence in a world full of rebellion.
God as Father wishes only good for his children, and I think we would do well to shake off any mindset that tells us he wants to 'teach us a lesson'. Paul reminds me I am Holy in his sight, blameless and free from accusation. God does not want to take every opportunity to make me suffer.
God the Father doesn't hire a thief to mug me just to teach me not to walk alone at night. My Father in heaven has probably tried to warn me many times, cause he knows the sorts of things that happen in an open universe. My Father is constantly watching out for ways he can positively impact my life, making sure that I can cope with everything life throws at me. My Father will comfort me when things go wrong, when I didn't listen to his advice. My Father may show me the edge of the cliff to explain where is safe to walk.
How much more wonderful is my Father than a God who entraps me, only to tell me I should know better.
Freedom is the bottom line here. My Father gives me the freedom to believe in him, to call out to him, to ask for protection. He doesn't sulk because I excluded him yesterday, he is waiting in the wings for an opportunity to make the difference today.
God does not allow pain and suffering for its own sake, or because it achieves anything worthwhile in itself.
Pain is not there to punish us for falling over. Sadness is not there to heighten our enjoyment of joy. Evil is not there to show us how Holy God is. Sickness is not there just to make me seek a doctor. God says, since the house got flooded, I'll give you that new carpet I've been trying to pursuade you to get for ages.
When we see that this world isn't how God wanted it to be, and God is committed to changing me into the likeness of the Messiah, we should end up viewing tests in a different light. Satan's aim is our downfall, so we should rebuke him. God wants to exercise us so we are stronger. It is Holy Spirit who helps us to tell the difference.
Love Polly.
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
BabyDi100900
01/12/01 11:22 AM
RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polly- thanks for the response….I as well believe in open theism and am trying to grow and learn within that realm.
I agree that God is incapable of evil, wants nothing to do with it, and therefore, does not utilize it to inflict a negative experience on us. I think that "testing" is not the reason negative things occur in our lives…more, it's the result of the constant battle between good and evil. You say that God is always watching out for ways to impact our lives so that we can handle the ugliness when it comes our way. I agree with that. As a believer, I have experienced that many many times. Here is my struggle then, if I am on track so far…
The non- believers then, don't have the "resources" that a believer has, because they do not allow God to make the best of a bad situation, to pick them up when they are down. Evil triumphs then, doesn't it?
A very bad situation/negative experience has the potential to make a believer into a non- believer..in which evil then triumphs as well.
We have free will, but God is the overriding authority when He wants to use His will. Why is it not His will in these situations to have us triumph? If He only wants the greater good for us to be achieved, why does He allow the lesser of that to occur?
And, if we successfully manage through the very bad situations, triumph over evil, remain strong in our faith, is it ok to at least acknowledge it as a battle successfully won, consider it a "test we passed" and identify it as further growth in our Christianity? That we just made our roots deeper? That we are now stronger than before and God's awesome love and power has again been revealed ?
Peace -and may all our battles be conquered
Di
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/14/01 7:12 AM
RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents into this discussion. I read this awesome book by Joni Eareckson Tada called, 'When God Weeps', which addresses this whole area of tests... I agree with you that God doesn't want us to suffer nor does He bring trials upon us. God has NOTHING to do with evil. I believe that Satan can ONLY throw the trials at us in which God allows. If Satan had it his way he would have already devoured and destroyed us. God has the ultimate say in EVERYTHING for BOTH the believer, as well as, the non-believer. The difference between the believer and the non-believer hinges on the fact that God is the source of our strenth. The non-believer has to get their life and strength from fleshly things. God helps us to triumph in our trials "He works all things for the good", but He doesn't release us from having an active part in this.
What I have learned through the TNT course, that is mentioned on the Christus Victor home page, is that God,through His Holy Spirit, has empowered us with the resources to overcome and win the battles. He has placed within our spirit the driver, (called the "I" of the soul), that allows us to 'Take every thought captive to Christ'. God works with us, not in spite of us, to work through the trials and the strongholds in our life.
Prayer is our weapon,
trosie
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
Polly_Histor
01/14/01 11:08 AM
Joni Eareckson Tada
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trosie,
Just an aside really.
I agree with what you said there, but I was interested to know more about Joni's ideas. I haven't read her book, but I've been told that she says "God broke my back". Is this true, and how does it fit into the picture?
Polly
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Polly_Histor
01/14/01 11:54 AM
RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Di,
>A very bad situation/negative experience has the potential to make a >believer into a non- believer..in which evil then triumphs as well. >We have free will, but God is the overriding authority when He wants >to use His will. Why is it not His will in these situations to have >us triumph?
This is hard, because we believe that God wants only good for us, why does he let things go wrong like this?
Well, I suppose that I have to believe God only lets me suffer stuff which I can endure, so if I don't, then I have to take responsibility for that. Furthermore, Paul said to Timothy "If we disown him, he will disown us...If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, since he cannot disown himself"
I know one of the key obstacles in my own life is not allowing myself to be vulnerable. I don't tend to rely on God for things because I like to be in control, and so I disown God from that situation. God seems to move more when I am driven into a corner where I cannot be in control any more. Then, when I have no other resort, even if I say prayers I hardly believe, he seems to listen, and is faithful. I guess God doesn't want to be tacked on to my list of resources.
I always ask "God, why don't you do more?" and I have to come to either of the following conclusions. Either He is not interested, and our prayers are like twisting his arm until he says "Oh, alright", or He is longing to be more involved, but for him preserving the cooperation with Man is more important.
Recommended on the book list on the site is The Suffering of God by T. Fretheim. I was reminded of this by Trosie's post. Fretheim says that we often think to ourselves If only Jesus were here, he would do something. and we see Jesus as saving us from the Father, who is the source of all the trouble in our lives.
I suppose that God agreed certain rules for his interaction in the world, and appears to want human cooperation. Lip service is not the same as genuinely throwing yourself on the rock.
We must remember that God could be saving us each moment from disasterous situations, we just don't realise it. I hope I trust God every day for my safety, and so far I'm still alive, but I don't know how many near misses God had intervened on. What we see could be the tip of the iceburg.
>If He only wants the greater good for us to be achieved, why does He >allow the lesser of that to occur?
The end doesn't justify the means. God must want to achieve things in a certain way for them to be really worthwhile, any other way and it would be damaging for the world and us in the long term. When Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, crying to God Is there another way? the Father must have been sobbing too, torn apart replies "If only there were..."
>And, if we successfully manage through the very bad situations, >triumph over evil, remain strong in our faith, is it ok to at least >acknowledge it as a battle successfully won, consider it a "test we >passed" and identify it as further growth in our Christianity? That >we just made our roots deeper? That we are now stronger than before >and God's awesome love and power has again been revealed ?
Yeah!!!!!!. For it is his purpose that we be increasingly conformed to the likeness of the Messiah. If we died with him, we will also live with him. We share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Suffering is a necessary part of becoming conformed to the likeness of the Son. Everything good is cloaked in futility and death (Romans 8) the creation has been subjected to frustration..., and must be released by the sons of God.
We reach into the creation with the empowerment of Holy Spirit, and face the difficulties of life. The creation ends up being liberated from its bondage to futility and death, and enjoys a freedom that would never have been achievable by human might. (I recommend an excellent book on this subject The Church beyond the Congregation by James Thwaites.
His grace is sufficient not only for me to suffer and remain in the faith, but to succeed and gain the prize.
Love Polly.
love
Posted Originally From: Open Theism Information Site
Shine150
01/14/01 8:12 PM
RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
love your thinking polly-hist. thanks. couple of questions.
* someone said Satan can only test us if God allows him? i know you can get that from Job and Jesus' statement about Satan wanting to "sift" Peter. but does this mean that Satan always has to ask specific permission for every specific evil he's going to do? and if so, then doesn't this mean that God must have a good REASON for allowing Satan to do what he does? and if this is so doesn't it mean that we're back to the same old problem that all bad things happen for a "good" divine reason?
* here's something i've always wondered. why does the bible say God won't allow us to be tempted beyond what we 're able to stand... but then a lot of people get tempted and fall -- which means, doesn't it, that they were tempted beyond what they were able... What's up with that?
* On Joni.. i'm glad Trosie was blessed by one of her books, but I had a friend who went beserko on one. Joni gets into this "all things are for the better" stuff... like God had a reason for her getting crippled. the implication is that every gassed jewish child was created with her specific terroized gasp for oxygen in mind.
i'd be an atheist if this is what believing in God entailed.
skate on
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
trosie
01/14/01 11:33 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just referring to the book called "When God Weeps' because I thought that Joni made SOME good points about the issue of evil. I don't want to say that I agree with EVERYTHING that I read in the book, but I did learn a lot and got some of my own questions answered. The bottom line that I was wanting to share from this book was that EVERYTHING that happens to us can ONLY happen if God allows it, and this helped me in the process of starting to make some sense out of the pain that we all experience. I realize that this doesn't make the evil any less real, but it does help me to put things into perspective a little bit. God DOESN'T bring about the evil in our life but HE IS IN CONTROL, not Satan, of how much evil will come into our life. Satan cannot do anything to us unless God allows it. It does not seem very loving that He would allow anything evil to come to us, but we live in a fallen world where there is a spiritual war going on and we happen to be in the war zone. He doesn't AT ALL desire that the Jewish child, that you referred to, get gased. God HATES evil.
So, in a nut shell, I had only referred to the book because it had helped me, a few years ago, when I began to really question the whole issue of the evil in the world. This thing of evil is a process that I struggle with myself, and that is why I wanted to jump into your thread. I agree with Greg Boyd's warfare view, and his book has helped me in my struggle with the issue of "evil" as well. I know that there are a lot of good books out there that have been written on this topic. I have read a few but 'When God Weeps' was the one that stuck out in my head when I wrote the other post.
In Christ,
trosie
P.S. Polly-Histor, I really appreciate and agree with what you have posted on this thread
Posted Originally From: Christus Victor Ministries
BabyDi100900
01/16/01 2:00 PM
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: God and our tests
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Polly
I think I get it now- at least on the level I was asking. I needed to know that there was significance on our successful negotiation through the negative times. Shine150 had a good question that was along what I was asking...but took it further. That if God does not allow us to be given more than we can handle, how then do we fail? I think that that is because we COULD handle it..if we kept our faith and trusted him...that we fail because we let go of that.
Anyway- thanks...this was all done with good timing and....I WILL keep the faith and I'll consider it all as bringing me one step closer to his likeness.
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